just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else being the same).
I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g., lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else being the same).
I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g., lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
Although what I've read (mostly in this group) makes me agree with Art, you can have a perfectly fine wheel with unbutted spokes too. I used to break spokes frequently. I had a good pair of wheels built a few years ago and never had the slightest problem after that. I had to catch a loose bungee cord in the spokes to jerk the rim out of true, and even then it wasn't enough to make the brake pads rub. The spokes on these wheels are straight gauge.
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else being the same).
some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...
no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few bucks more.
"Paul Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Arthur Harris wrote:
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
-- Paul Turner
ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in a pinch!
ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in a pinch!
Something to keep in mind- by the time you get a 3rd broken spoke, it's time to rebuild the wheel. Whatever has caused your spoke failures is still there, and you're way beyond being able to rationalize that they broke from random failure. They will most likely keep breaking, which is not a whole lot of fun out on a ride, whether it's a 36 or 24-spoke wheel.
"greggery peccary" <@.@> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
"Paul Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Arthur Harris wrote:
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
-- Paul Turner
ya they always break at the elbow...kudos to supergo for doing the job in a pinch!
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to fatigue failures.
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to fatigue failures.
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Paul Turner said:
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
I disagree. The kind of spoke failure is caused described is caused by high stress and this is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to fatigue failures.
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Paul Turner said:
I believe a major reason for breakage is tension that is too low, even if it is fairly even, as the OP says his spokes are. At low tension, the distance between the hub and the rim changes slightly (especially for a heavy rider like me) as the wheel turns. The spokes bend to accommodate this change, and especially with unbutted spokes, this is concentrated at the elbow where metal fatigue eventually leads to breakage. While butted spokes help avoid this, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting excellent results with straight gauge spokes on well made wheels.
I disagree. The kind of spoke failure described is caused by high stress which is only possible from high tension, load on the wheel only slackening spokes. I would like to hear how loose spokes lead to fatigue failures.
"maxo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Arthur Harris said:
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else being the same).
some folks say they ride better too, but that coul be a bogus claim...
no real reason not to use them is the real point--they just cost a few bucks more.
got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs. whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a month spin).
got my wheel back. they built it with some good swiss spokes cos they had no double butts. anxious to see how they do on the potholes and curbs. whatever, im glad to be back on the road (and my old car got it's once a month spin).
Some shops only use straight-gauge spokes, possibly if they happen to have a thread rolling machine, so they don't have to stock several lengths, but can cut to size.
It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes. They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies
It is not a good idea to build with straight-gauge spokes. They will be no stronger, and will not last as long as double-butted.
I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?
Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures. One could argue that a straight-gauge thinner spoke (say a 15 gauge compared with a 14/15) would have as much if not slightly more stretch than the butted spoke, but the penalty there is the weaker ends.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is _`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. (_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy
I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>
think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?
Quoted message said:
Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.
My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT version).
Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures occur on the right side.
I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted spoke.
just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a road (communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke after about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel was very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything else being the same).
I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g., lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
_ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that many miles.
I agree unbutted spokes will be no stronger, but what makes you >>
think they will fail sooner than butted spokes?
Quoted message said:
Experience. Plus, the thin section of a butted spoke allows slightly more stretch, which decreases the chance of the spoke going slack, which lowers the chance for fatigue failures.
My experience is different. I've built and ridden wheels using variuos combinations of DT spokes from all straight gauge, to all butted, to a mix (R/L). I have NEVER broken a straight gauge spoke, while I have broken a couple of butted spokes (one was the infamous long elbow DT version).
Furthermore, the broken spokes were all on the right side (which are far less prone to going slack than those on the left). If your theory is correct (i.e., fatigue failures increase when spokes go slack), most broken spokes would occur on the left side. In reality, most failures occur on the right side.
I'm not saying straight gauge spokes are stronger, or build a better wheel. I am saying they're no more prone to breakage than a butted spoke.
I recently heard the same thing from a wheelbuilder at a well known shop out here. He told me his experience has been that straight or butted makes no differance. He is aware of the theory behind the claim for db being stronger, but claims that in practice they are the same.
Maybe spokes are just generally so good these days that it doesn't matter.
"Booker C. Bense" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
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In article <[email hidden]>,
Arthur Harris said:
alan said:
just wondering about "double butted" spokes versus regular size on a
road
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Quoted message said:
(communter) wheel that gets a lot of pounding on cracked streets, curbs and root bumps. i dropped it off at the lbs after the fourth spoke broke
after
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
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about 6K miles (they only break when im running late). yes the wheel
was
Quoted message said:
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Quoted message said:
very true and tensions fairly even. thanks for your thoughts
A properly built wheel using double butted spokes will be more likely to stay true than a properly built wheel using unbutted spokes (everything
else
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
being the same).
I suspect your spoke breakage is due to either a poor wheel build (e.g., lack of stress relieving) or poor quality spokes.
_ If you keep breaking spokes, you should check that the rim is still round. While you can use spoke tension to compensate for a slightly bent rim, it leads to uneven stress in the spokes which causes breakage. That'a a lot of spokes to break in that many miles.
_ Booker C. Bense
wheel checked out by myself and two bike shops. although there is a very slght hop the concensus is that i had a wheel with a bad batch of spokes. (mavic wheel on 2003 novara)
