Question for Mozz:

(M. Schwartz) said:

Mozz, I know you didn't pursue the following, and I wonder if you
missed it:

Quoted message said:

By the same token what made Jesus Christ any different?"

He is risen.

He also says He is Son of God the Father.

Quoted message said:

Or the Pope?

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

Or any minister???

Ditto

Do you make any sense out of the "Ditto"? Has the Pope and/or minister
risen or Son/Sons of God?

Mel, very confused...

What does this have to do with cardiology?

Quoted message said:

Mozz, I know you didn't pursue the following, and I wonder if you
missed it:

Quoted message said:

By the same token what made Jesus Christ any different?"

He is risen.

He also says He is Son of God the Father.

Hello Mel.

Yes, you may be right, I think I might have missed these.
I think Andrew had just made the point about how could the Dalai
Lama's claims to be a reincarnation be any different from people
claiming to be Joan Of Arc or Napoleon etc...and I responded by saying
the same arguement of course applies to Jesus or the Pope etc...

Andrew answers that he believes Jesus is risen.

I think the gospel stories of the life, death and resurrection of
Jesus (as most scholars agree) all share the classic 'mythological'
structures these types of redemptive narratives share world-wide.
The earliest Mesopotamian curieforms tell of Gigamesh, the first
warrior-king and his tales of the origins of the world with a great
flood etc leading to a rebirth, or resurrection and renewal.

I interpret the narratives of the gospels as beautiful myths with
great meaning psychologically. The archetypes of Jesus and Satan and
Mary, John the Baptist etc are all parts of our own psyches and the
story leads us from a sense of conflict to wholeness and renewal
(resurrection). Read Joseph Campbell's Power Of The Myth or related
mythological essays by Carl Jung for more detail.
Therefore in that sense - the 'reality' of the psyche - Jesus is
risen. Jesus representing 'individuation' or 'wholeness' of the
conscious/unconscious inner conflicts.

Of course, non of this makes the Christian spirituality any less vital
or helpful or important to those that resonate with its contents.

This is my understanding and as Andrew would no doubt say - my gift of
seeing the Truth. :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or the Pope?

Quoted message said:

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

Or any minister???

Ditto

Do you make any sense out of the "Ditto"? Has the Pope and/or minister
risen or Son/Sons of God?

Mel, very confused...

No, I don't understand what the ditto refers to here either Mel.

Take care my friend.

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:32:10 GMT, Bob Cardone

cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

(M. Schwartz) said:

Mozz, I know you didn't pursue the following, and I wonder if you
missed it:

Quoted message said:

By the same token what made Jesus Christ any different?"

He is risen.

He also says He is Son of God the Father.

Quoted message said:

Or the Pope?

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

Or any minister???

Ditto

Do you make any sense out of the "Ditto"? Has the Pope and/or minister
risen or Son/Sons of God?

Mel, very confused...

What does this have to do with cardiology?

Nothing whatsoever Bob.
I am sorry if these posts cause you or anyone else any irritation.
My original posting was to say how meditation has helped bring my high
blood pressure down and ease my 'busy' mind. I was just sharing that
with you all and nothing 'religious'.
However, Andrew insists on continuing to debate my faith with me, even
though I have suggested we just agree to disagree with each other as
clearly he sees things completely differently to me. Which is ok, I
respect his right to do that.

Would you rather I just stopped replying to his posts regardless?

I wish you well Bob.
Take care.

Mozz said:

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:32:10 GMT, Bob Cardone

cardone1!@!mindspring.com said:

(M. Schwartz) said:

Mozz, I know you didn't pursue the following, and I wonder if you
missed it:

>By the same token what made Jesus Christ any different?"

He is risen.

He also says He is Son of God the Father.

>Or the Pope?

Ditto.

> Or any minister???

Ditto

Do you make any sense out of the "Ditto"? Has the Pope and/or minister
risen or Son/Sons of God?

Mel, very confused...

What does this have to do with cardiology?

Nothing whatsoever Bob.
I am sorry if these posts cause you or anyone else any irritation.
My original posting was to say how meditation has helped bring my high
blood pressure down and ease my 'busy' mind. I was just sharing that
with you all and nothing 'religious'.
However, Andrew insists on continuing to debate my faith with me, even
though I have suggested we just agree to disagree with each other as
clearly he sees things completely differently to me. Which is ok, I
respect his right to do that.

Would you rather I just stopped replying to his posts regardless?

I wish you well Bob.
Take care.

I think Bob's answer would be that you keep this discussion under the
off-topic thread where most of this discussion resides. It is likely that
Bob (and others not interested in our religious discussions) have killfiled
that thread.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Larry Blanchard said:

How come your "god of love" created a world in which almost every living
thing lives only by killing/eating some other living thing?

Beats me. Ask God.

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:57:02 -0400, Crescent Mu_n <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mozz said:

I am sorry if these posts cause you or anyone else any irritation.
My original posting was to say how meditation has helped bring my high
blood pressure down and ease my 'busy' mind. I was just sharing that
with you all and nothing 'religious'.
However, Andrew insists on continuing to debate my faith with me,

You have no faith as far as I can tell.

I have faith in the truth of the buddhist dharma.

Respectfully.
Mozz

Mozz said:

Quoted message said:

You have no faith as far as I can tell.

I have faith in the truth of the buddhist dharma.

ok let me phrase it differently. You have no Faith off any value to
you, imo and in God's decree.

You're faith in Buddhism is lost effort.

Larry Blanchard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

He also says He is Son of God the Father.

Hmmm - the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is the word
of god - yeah right.

How come your "god of love" created a world in which almost every living
thing lives only by killing/eating some other living thing?

This is not a question for me or Mozz. You are looking at a quote from Dr. Chung.

Mel

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:32:42 -0400, Crescent Mu_n <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mozz said:

Quoted message said:

You have no faith as far as I can tell.

I have faith in the truth of the buddhist dharma.

ok let me phrase it differently. You have no Faith off any value to
you, imo and in God's decree.

You're faith in Buddhism is lost effort.

I respect your right to express your opinion.

I do not believe in God.

I disagree that my faith in buddhism is misplaced.

Peace be with you.

(M. Schwartz) said:

So, here we seem to have Dr. Chung tell us that what happens is God's
will and that includes the Holocaust and Twin Towers but then we also
have the 'truthful' doctor tell us that God does not do evil.

Correct.

Quoted message said:

Somehow I do not see truth in that.

That's because you have no Faith, only your intellectual curiosity to
drive your decisions.

Mozz said:

It's very much like sticking one's head in the sand really isn't it.
It's meaningless.
To say everything is God's will is just lazy theology.

I'll trust God and my Faith and not my interpretation of "theology" as
temporal as human thought is.

Why is it that we, as mere mortals, believe, for one instance, that we
have any clue whatsoever of God?

Quoted message said:

Everything that occurs is a product of causes and conditions. The Two
Towers or the Holocaust occured because people felt hatred and
intolerance and frustration (afflictive emotions). They were attched
to negative thoughts and had aversion to what they percieved to be the
causes of their suffering outside themselves. This is a disasterous
mix. If they had been able to calm their minds, to train themselves to
let go of hatred and attachment and realize the nature of emptiness,
and the importance of ethical responsibility to all sentient beings
then the world would be a much safer and happier place.
I recall Gandhi's famous quote - "An eye for an eye until the World be
blinded"

Gandhi may reside in Hell.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's very much like sticking one's head in the sand really isn't it.
It's meaningless.
To say everything is God's will is just lazy theology.

I'll trust God and my Faith and not my interpretation of "theology" as
temporal as human thought is.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but your understanding of Faith in God
is a theological interpretation.

Quoted message said:

Why is it that we, as mere mortals, believe, for one instance, that we
have any clue whatsoever of God?

Quite right! Why do we even need to conjure a creator deity in the
first place? Silly really isn't it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Everything that occurs is a product of causes and conditions. The Two
Towers or the Holocaust occured because people felt hatred and
intolerance and frustration (afflictive emotions). They were attched
to negative thoughts and had aversion to what they percieved to be the
causes of their suffering outside themselves. This is a disasterous
mix. If they had been able to calm their minds, to train themselves to
let go of hatred and attachment and realize the nature of emptiness,
and the importance of ethical responsibility to all sentient beings
then the world would be a much safer and happier place.
I recall Gandhi's famous quote - "An eye for an eye until the World be
blinded"

Gandhi may reside in Hell.

I will be in excellent company then!

Have a nice day.

Crescent Mu_n said:

Mozz said:

I am sorry if these posts cause you or anyone else any irritation.
My original posting was to say how meditation has helped bring my high
blood pressure down and ease my 'busy' mind. I was just sharing that
with you all and nothing 'religious'.
However, Andrew insists on continuing to debate my faith with me,

You have no faith as far as I can tell.

Do you never stop your trolling malice?

Pastorio

Mozz said:

(M. Schwartz) said:

Mozz, here is something from my conversation with Dr. Chung that you
might find interesting relating to 'truth'.

Quoted message said:

>"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
>
>[snip]
>
>
>>>You previously said it was not luck but God's will in reference to my
>>>surviving a doctor's misjudgment. Okay, was it God's will to cause the
>>>Holocaust?
>>
>>It was God's will that the Holocaust happened.
>
>So [censored] was doing G-d's will?
>
>>>The Twin Towers?
>>
>>His will be done.
>
>...and so was Bin Laden?
>
>>>Is it God's will when something good
>>>happens but not his will when the bad occurs?
>>
>>What happens is according to His will.
>
>It's G-d's will that man have free will, and if man does have free
>will, he can do evil. That does not mean that G-d's will is to do
>evil.
>

Correct. God does not do evil.

So, here we seem to have Dr. Chung tell us that what happens is God's
will and that includes the Holocaust and Twin Towers but then we also
have the 'truthful' doctor tell us that God does not do evil.

Somehow I do not see truth in that.

Mel

Hmmmm........

It's very much like sticking one's head in the sand really isn't it.
It's meaningless.
To say everything is God's will is just lazy theology.

The rabid fundamentalist says that merely to believe is sufficient to
be considered saved. Almost no matter which version of which frantic
fundamentalist sect is speaking, the condition remains constant. Acts
and deeds are irrelevant and great chunks of whatever sacred text it's
based on are discarded to suit the current view. Or, if acts aren't
irrelevant, they merely heap greater benefit on the believer.

Doesn't matter what the fundamentalists call themselves: Muslim,
Christian, or some invented hybrid of something else. What they all
lack is any sort of developed theology to bolster their contentions.

Another lamentable characteristic they all have is an impenetrable set
of beliefs based on wishful thinking that let them see all others as
lesser people to be treated as erroneous. To treat dismissively. To
preach at rather than talk to. They all use buzzwords. Listen to the
televangelists and their use of catchphrases and shortcuts instead of
substance. Listen to their labored interpretations of the words in
their sermons. Watch them quote isolated bits and snippets from the
bible to make their points. The book is a remarkable document, they
cheapen and demean it by their snakeoil salesmanship.

Their big characteristic, however, is a streak of malice and violence
that they justify by talking about God's will. As though they know
what it might be. They excuse themselves and assert that their
behavior is good. So killing everybody in the Twin Towers is a good
act. Murdering workers at abortion clinics is good action. Lynching
blacks from under white clothing is good. Like that wacko who was just
executed for killing the abortion doctor. He was unrepentant and said
he expected to be with the Lord when he died. The Lord ostensibly said
"Thou shalt not murder." Pick and choose the parts they want to
believe. Discard the inconvenient ones.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

Everything that occurs is a product of causes and conditions. The Two
Towers or the Holocaust occured because people felt hatred and
intolerance and frustration (afflictive emotions). They were attched
to negative thoughts and had aversion to what they perceived to be the
causes of their suffering outside themselves. This is a disastrous
mix. If they had been able to calm their minds, to train themselves to
let go of hatred and attachment and realize the nature of emptiness,
and the importance of ethical responsibility to all sentient beings
then the world would be a much safer and happier place.
I recall Gandhi's famous quote - "An eye for an eye until the World be
blinded"

Peace be with you Mel

Mu_nstruck said:

Why is it that we, as mere mortals, believe, for one instant, that we
have any clue whatsoever of God?

Yet you irredeemably imply that you do by your "questions" and
derision. If you really believed you don't grasp the totality that is
God, you wouldn't be so fully convinced of your correctness. Certainly
not convinced enough to deride others' beliefs. And certainly not
enough to believe that your post mortem future is guaranteed. Your
arrogant surety is based on believing that you really do know what God
is about. That you have a pure grasp of the biblical requirements. To
say you don't negates any value to your insistence on correctness. To
say you do is hubris.

Read the bible. That's a sin.

Pastorio

Mozz said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's very much like sticking one's head in the sand really isn't it.
It's meaningless.
To say everything is God's will is just lazy theology.

I'll trust God and my Faith and not my interpretation of "theology" as
temporal as human thought is.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but your understanding of Faith in God
is a theological interpretation.

The very idea that the substance, the meaning is somehow separate from
the words that convey it is amazing to me. To get the message, people
have to read or hear other peoples' words. If they were given a book
written in Urdu, can they possibly imagine that the meaning would be
available to them if they couldn't read it?

Theology is an alien concept to all fundamentalists. Their stock in
trade is to simplify it to what could be written in a short paragraph.
As though the whole rest of the document - whichever sacred document -
is somehow extraneous. Wasteful. As though it could all be distilled
to a single bumper-sticker vision of what it's all about. We see it in
terrorists of all stripes.

To this mentality, the idea of ethical behavior is alien. They are
saved and there's no need for them to demonstrate anything else. The
idea of altruism is that it's a sucker's game. Fundamentalists are, by
nature and action, egocentric and selfish. It's only about them and
all about them. No other perspective has any merit, to them. No other
vision is worthy of respect. They're very committed to the notions of
absolute correctness balanced by absolute error. It's all utterly
indefensible by any logical rigor. It's that last that makes their
pronouncements so frantic. As though if any small part of it might be
weak, the whole fragile structure would crash down. and if any part is
shown to fail, it must all be wrong. They avoid "error" at all costs.

Pity, actually. There's no curiosity, no evolution of the self, no
enlargement of the self, no development. What is is perfect and
unalterable to them. They smugly look down on everybody else. They
claim they're made in the image and likeness of God.

In Ecclesiates, (3, 1-9) it says,
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under
heaven:
"A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to
pluck up that which is planted:
"A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down and a time
to build up:
"A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn and a time to dance:
"A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a
time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing:
"A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep and a time to cast
away:
"A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence and a time
to speak.
"A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

This sounds to me like life has no guarantees. Merely events that, in
toto, define us. Sounds like it means "Do the best you can and we'll
see about it later, at the judgement." It certainly doesn't say that
the only time is one where belief is all that it takes to be a full
person.

A little later, in chapter 8, verse 8, it says:
A man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, drink and be merry.

That same notion is carried into the new testament in Luke (12:19) who
says:
"Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease,
eat, drink, and be merry."

Two words that don't belong in the same sentence; merry and
fundamentalist.

Pastorio

Mu_nstruck <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(M. Schwartz) said:

So, here we seem to have Dr. Chung tell us that what happens is God's
will and that includes the Holocaust and Twin Towers but then we also
have the 'truthful' doctor tell us that God does not do evil.

Correct.

Quoted message said:

Somehow I do not see truth in that.

That's because you have no Faith, only your intellectual curiosity to
drive your decisions.

Correct? Where is the explanation? You don't need any? You make up
your own?

To say whatever happens is God's will and then to say God does no evil
is not logical. In case you haven't noticed, evil things do happen.

Mel

Mozz said:

Quoted message said:

I'll trust God and my Faith and not my interpretation of "theology" as
temporal as human thought is.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but your understanding of Faith in God
is a theological interpretation.

Only to you.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why is it that we, as mere mortals, believe, for one instance, that we
have any clue whatsoever of God?

Quite right! Why do we even need to conjure a creator deity in the
first place? Silly really isn't it.

God is not conjured.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Gandhi may reside in Hell.

I will be in excellent company then!

There is no excellent company in Hell.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:22:45 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The very idea that the substance,

Until you answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.