Pro-Lite Bracciano Wheelset c/w spoke ties

[Eichers]

Hi all, here's some dynamic(ish) wheel testing ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7RJpf_KQo4&feature=youtu.be /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Hey danfoz, /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif ... all good, thanks KL

 

[alienator]

Hi alienator, I went away and had a think about this and I agree that it is good that the spoke bracing helps control Standing Wave Resonances that will occur in the spoke during a spokes tension/detension cycle (especially during the detension segment of the cycle) but I believe that there is another benefit which is not revealed during Static testing Yes, you are correct ... Statically, there is no difference in Static Lateral Stiffness but I believe there is an improvement in the wheels Dynamic Lateral Stiffness (while Riding).  I believe that the spoke bracing (tieing and soldering) improves a spokes tension/detension cycle stiffness, especially during the detension segment of the cycle where it can slack, which directly improves a wheels Dynamic Lateral stiffness To test this it would need to be down Dynamically (while riding), because a Static test will not show this result  I believe that CampyBob is correct, even though he does not know why he is correct ... no offense CampyBob  Nonetheless, a 3xNDS lacing will be more Dynamic Laterally Stiff than a 2xNDS lacing, because the 3xNDS lacing improves a spokes tension/detension cycle stiffness interesting ... Thanks KL

Well, that's the difference between science and religion: belief has no place or meaning in science, so believe what you want. That you've got no data really says it all. You've also got no credible theories to support your claims that your magical devices will increase wheel stiffness. Standing wave resonance? Who said anything about that?

 

[Eichers]

Originally Posted by alienator .

... Standing wave resonance? Who said anything about that?

Hi alienator, actually indirectly, you did ... Standing Wave resonances are the problematic resonances, because they are amplified (the sum of many resonances), lingering (high energy, like a bell), and what cause sprung bridges to self destruct. It would not be any different for a spoke, or will it ... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Naughty on you, you rebut without providing any evidence, not even an hypothesis, only conjecture! ... hmm, not good, makes having a good scientific discussion almost impossible /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif

Actually, I thought that science was a belief (ie. hypothesis) until it becomes accepted fact then it is generally accepted as factual /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
A good hypothesis, always begins with "I believe" or "I think" or "I suppose" ... now that's not religious is it /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Actually to ask, within the dynamics of wheel buiding, do you know or understand what the spoke tension/detension cycle is, what NDS ratio is, and how they interact dynamically, not just statically ... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Hey CampyBob, I think your hypothesis, re spoke bracing (tieing and soldering), is reasonable ( ... does this feel like a religious experience for you ... ) at least until alienator can counter it with some reasonable maths and/or dynamic experiments that are scientifically accepted as being factual /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

A simple test which is reasonable, unless proven otherwise, when using exactly the same rear wheel w/ or w/o spoke bracing, does spoke bracing result in fewer spokes breaking for a 110kg/242lb heavy rider. If no spokes break w/ spoke bracing, but spokes break w/ spoke bracing, then this would indicate that spoke bracing results in a Dynamically Laterally stiffer wheel ... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Not to worry, all good ... thanks KL /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by alienator .


Well, that's the difference between science and religion: belief has no place or meaning in science

Belief, a hypothesis, is what drives science.


Certainly different theories of wheel building produce different results, but there is not enough difference for selecting one theory over another.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"I believe that CampyBob is correct, even though he does not know why he is correct ... no offense CampyBob

"

Oh, I know that I am correct.

I've ridden them. Identical wheels/tires to the standard builds I put together.

However, here's the proof: After riding your T&S wheelset on 20 miles of **** roads, de-solder and cut the ties and loosen your spokes pecisely 2-1/2 turns each. Then ADD 5 PSI to each tire just to toss "the biggest factor in wheel stiffness" out of the equation.

Then, ride back across that same 20 miles of **** roads.

Write report. You can title it, "The Campster Was Right All Along!". Bonus points for footnoting your calibrated hind end!

Regards,
Campy the Dynamically Laterally Stiff Bob

Next week: The Wind and how it affects the travel of sound. Prereqs: Libtard 101 and Observation and using the 5 senses God gave you.

 

[Eichers]

Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB .
...I've ridden them. Identical wheels/tires to the standard builds I put together.

However, here's the proof: After riding your T&S wheelset on 20 miles of **** roads, de-solder and cut the ties and loosen your spokes pecisely 2-1/2 turns each. Then ADD 5 PSI to each tire just to toss "the biggest factor in wheel stiffness" out of the equation.

Then, ride back across that same 20 miles of **** roads.

Hi CampyBob, why did you loosen the spokes precisely 2-1/2 turns each ... this has changed the test and is nolonger valid ... or is it?
I am happy to read why you think that it is valid /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Actually, changing the tyre pressure also makes the test invalid and not a direct comparison, because wheel, tyre, and tube make up the wheel build /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Hey CampyBob, I think those cute spoke braces on these wheels looks much better than tieing and soldering ... sexy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

interesting ... Thanks KL /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[alienator]

Hi alienator, actually indirectly, you did ... Standing Wave resonances are the problematic resonances, because they are amplified (the sum of many resonances), lingering (high energy, like a bell), and what cause sprung bridges to self destruct.  It would not be any different for a spoke, or will it ...  Naughty on you, you rebut without providing any evidence, not even an hypothesis, only conjecture! ... hmm, not good, makes having a good scientific discussion almost impossible Actually, I thought that science was a belief (ie. hypothesis) until it becomes accepted fact then it is generally accepted as factual  A good hypothesis, always begins with "I believe" or "I think" or "I suppose" ... now that's not religious is it Actually to ask, within the dynamics of wheel buiding, do you know or understand what the spoke tension/detension cycle is, what NDS ratio is, and how they interact dynamically, not just statically ... Hey CampyBob, I think your hypothesis, re spoke bracing (tieing and soldering), is reasonable ( ... does this feel like a religious experience for you ... ) at least until alienator can counter it with some reasonable maths and/or dynamic experiments that are scientifically accepted as being factual    A simple test which is reasonable, unless proven otherwise, when using exactly the same rear wheel w/ or w/o spoke bracing, does spoke bracing result in fewer spokes breaking for a 110kg/242lb heavy rider. If no spokes break w/ spoke bracing, but spokes break w/ spoke bracing, then this would indicate that spoke bracing results in a Dynamically Laterally stiffer wheel ... Not to worry, all good ... thanks KL

I see. You're trolling. Good luck with that.

 

[Eichers]

Hi alienator, you seem to know this troll/trolling word quite well, unfortunately ... perhaps it's part of your Psyche /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
Hmm ... still only conjecture ... unfortunately, as usual /img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif
I guess there will be no useful discussion here, just conjecture and name calling ... and it could have been such an interesting discussion! ... hehehe /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


Hey CampyBob you are right, good luck /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

To clarify, loosening the spoke nipples precisely 2-1/2 turns each, will have reduced the DS/NDS spoke tension and as such reduced Static Lateral Stiffness to the point that the wheel would feel like it was a bit of a noodle ... unfortunately this is not a valid test but it would have been interesting to know why you decided to do that ... all the best /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Also, I do have 2 of these rear wheels, one w/ spoke braces (shown above) and one w/o spoke braces ... I will compare them and let you know my thoughts/assessment /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


Not to worry, all good ... thanks KL

 

[alienator]

Well, seeing that so many of your questions are obviously baiting, it's not hard to see you doing the troll thing. As for belief, you've got it wrong. This is how the process works: make an observation; formulate an hypothesis that explains the observation; test the hypothesis; re-evaluate the hypothesis in light of the test results; repeat. Nowhere is there belief. Your propositions, however, rest on nothing but belief. You have yet to offer a single scientifically valid reason how tying and soldering or spoke braces such as yours would increase stiffness. You have yet to provide any valid load path that would show increased stiffness as a result of tying and soldering or your spoke braces. Oh, and the only way in which spoke tension effects wheel stiffness is in the case where spoke tension goes completely slack; otherwise the only properties of a spoke that affect wheel stiffness are the Young's modulus of the material and the cross sectional area of the spoke. Look it up. Your thoughts about the wheels after riding them is of no consequence as your feelings about them are not objective. They are not measurements. They are the result of feelings, sensations, none of which are known for being accurate or precise.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

KLabs...leave your wheels as is and ride the living daylights out of them! I hope they give you years of riding pleasure. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/icon14.gif

Most of my roads are in too bad of condition to ride my 3X/32H T&S set on. My dentist charges insane prices to replace fillings that were shaken loose.

The inflation change/un-soldering was a joke.

 

[Eichers]

Hi All, if you are interested, here is an interesting discussion on tieing and soldering ... http://www.fixedvancouver.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1961

thanks KL /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

PS: It would appear that the production of Wide/Deep V or U shaped very stiff rims has completely removed any need for this practice (but not on my rear wheels).

They are now working on making these rims lighter, which I guess they will eventually achieve through the use of CF, CF Composites, Alloy Composites, or smarter Alloy fabrication techniques.

I guess marketing and the need for very stiff/light Rims due to DS Bracing Angle degradation will drive this process /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[cheetahmk7]

Anybody else find these wheels harsh to ride? They certainly are a lot harsher than my old Ksrium SL's were.

 

[Eichers]

Hi cheetahmk7, what tyres, tyre size, and inflation pressure do you use with each wheelset, and what weight are you?


thanks KL /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[cheetahmk7]

For both wheelsets:
GP4000S, 700 x 23C,100 PSI, 70 kg.

If I run the tyre pressure any lower I get pinch flats.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"Anybody else find these wheels harsh to ride? They certainly are a lot harsher than my old Ksrium SL's were."

Any well built T&S wheels will be harsh on poor quality roads due to the inherent stiffness. I tried for several years to use mine, but Ohio roads proved tougher than my hands/rear end. They accelerated well and were great crit wheels, but too rough riding for daily use.

 

[cheetahmk7]

T&S ?

 

[jpr95]

Originally Posted by cheetahmk7 .

T&S ?

Tied and soldered.

 

[cheetahmk7]

Surely not all the harshness is coming from the non-drive side of the rear wheel?

 

[alienator]

Surely not all the harshness is coming from the non-drive side of the rear wheel?

Harshness is primarily a function of rim stiffness, dimensions, and cross-section.

 

[cheetahmk7]

Are Ksrium Sls considered stiff? I can't pick the difference.