preparation experience

Sadly it once more isn't that simple. It might look like the UCI and
federations are trying to catch riders, but they send mixed signals.
The UCI bend the rules with regards to testing. You sometimes get a
warning that they are coming, some riders in some areas have done a lot
for the sport, and the federation would rather cover it up than have
this rider and the sport of cycling sullied. I doubt I know half of
what goes on behind the scenes, but the little I do know isn't
promising, the message to riders isn't clear.. well actually it is
clear, but it isn't the same message as the general public think.
There are more cover-ups than you would think, mainly from federations
rather than the UCI, but still...

As for Junior races, they are always reach the UCI field limit. Pretty
much every junior race has 200 riders on the start line...

As a side note to yourself: cat4 = you suck. No, Cat4 = you race at
your level, not you suck. You might suck compared to someone better
than you, but you are also world champ compared to someone worse than
you. Don't be hard on yourself. Cycling is a successful sport because
lots of people do it and enjoy it, you don't have to be a Tour rider
(and shouldn't expect to be) to enjoy cycling.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jet said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

I race in local amateur events in Canada (Cat 4=I suck), and While the
odds say there are likely a few dopers somewhere in the local amateur
ranks (about 1000 registered road racers in all categories in a province
of 6 M or so), My guess is that the default mode is to not dope, and to
abhor doping. I've certainly never heard a rider talk about drug use or
even suggest they might be on something. Well, okay, I have one
asthmatic teammate.

But I think part of it is that many of my teammates are professionals,
white-collar types, or graduate students in their real lives. If you've
got a good job, a good family, and a recreational cycling habit, there's
not much chance you'll mess with drugs to get better at what is
basically golf with an aerobic benefit.

I bet you'd be surprised to find that there's a lot of OTC drug use,
including herbal stuff, and pro-hormones (is that stuff still available?),
and wouldn't be surprised if there were pain-killers in use from left over
prescription from the trip to the dentist.

Well, not shocked, but goofy herbal remedies are a far cry in
effectiveness (and danger, usually) from actual rocket-fuel like EPO and
anabolic steroids. If someone is taking some daft herbal supplement,
they're likely going to get about as much performance advantage as my
secret medium-coffee-and-Egg McMuffin pre-race preparation. Caffeine:
the thinking man's cheat!

I'm not too worried about ineffective cheating.

Quoted message said:

Also wouldn't be surprised if some riders snagged some pills from their
family members' prescriptions.

Wouldn't expect to find serious stuff like EPO, or injectables, but oral
steroids (though that's a very bad idea), or even uppers of some kind
doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Well, depending on the upper, the issue may be as much illicit drug
abuse as performance enhancement.

Quoted message said:

From ancient man to modern times, humans have always been into pharmacopea,
from chewing leaves to psychoactive snuff. (there was a science channel
show on this topic on today, it just so happens. <g>😉.

I'm not trying to paint cyclists in a bad light. Just making a comment.
Just because it's 'aerobic golf' doesn't mean people won't be looking for
ergogenic aids - I do think the majority of stuff you'd find would be OTC
and probably some prescription stuff, pain killers and soforth.

I'm sure there are golfers out there trying beta blockers for steadier
shots. In terms of both harm and gain, this sort of amateur (and
amateurish) quasi-doping doesn't worry me much.

Especially in the low categories, doping is probably minimized by the
simple fact that any substantial performance boost will likely rocket
the rider into higher cats with considerable speed. Then I'm back to
getting beaten by the usual suspects again.

The strongest stuff I race on is medium-roast coffee and Sisu Hydrade
("pot Canadien"😉.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

DepartFictif said:

Sadly it once more isn't that simple. It might look like the UCI and
federations are trying to catch riders, but they send mixed signals.
The UCI bend the rules with regards to testing. You sometimes get a
warning that they are coming, some riders in some areas have done a lot
for the sport, and the federation would rather cover it up than have
this rider and the sport of cycling sullied. I doubt I know half of
what goes on behind the scenes, but the little I do know isn't
promising, the message to riders isn't clear.. well actually it is
clear, but it isn't the same message as the general public think.
There are more cover-ups than you would think, mainly from federations
rather than the UCI, but still...

I don't know what to say about that. Playing games with doping is not

Quoted message said:

As for Junior races, they are always reach the UCI field limit. Pretty
much every junior race has 200 riders on the start line...

Hm. That pleases me, but also scares me. If doping is as prevalent as
all that, who are these kids' parents? Maybe it's like hockey in Canada:
the prospect of making the big leagues is stuck in the minds of parents
and children alike, and making the NHL is a popular goal no matter the
reality and the talent levels.

Quoted message said:

As a side note to yourself: cat4 = you suck. No, Cat4 = you race at
your level, not you suck. You might suck compared to someone better
than you, but you are also world champ compared to someone worse than
you. Don't be hard on yourself. Cycling is a successful sport because
lots of people do it and enjoy it, you don't have to be a Tour rider
(and shouldn't expect to be) to enjoy cycling.

It's probably more fun for me than you! I love racing, and I'm even
having a pretty good season (won my first race since I got a license,
and have had some pretty credible results, with some really fun
teammates). I am realistic about my place in the world, partly because
the fact that cycling, at times can seem a flatter hierarchy than it is.
A club-mate properly noted once that while he hasn't race the Tour, he
has raced riders who have been there. And I have trained with him,
so...I use my humility to remind myself of what's going on.

I'm in zero illusion-land. I'm old enough to race Master's. I'll be
really happy if I end my "career" as a credible Cat 3. Cycling is, for
me, what fits between walking the dog, making jelly, and earning a
living. It fits well, and I love it. Even the training rides.

There are exceptions all over the place, but it seems to me that it some
of the greatest cyclists ever have also been men haunted by inner
demons, some brought on by cycling, and some driven into the background
by cycling. There seems to be a gulf between the most common
psychological characteristics of really good competitors and the most
common psychological characteristics of normally happy people.

Happy and making crab apple jelly,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

The strongest stuff I race on is medium-roast coffee and Sisu Hydrade
("pot Canadien"😉.

What, no sudafed and red bull in pot Canadian ? I'm beginning to wonder if
there isn't some truth to the claims from some of the US posters that
Canada sucks.

Quoted message said:

I'm not too worried about ineffective cheating.

Ah hah.. there we have it. The public's attitude in a few simple
words. Begs the big question. What is it that worries people about
doping? It is only when it effects you that it bothers you? Surely
doping is doping wether effective or not. Aren't dodging the issue by
categorizing effective and non-effective doping?

So here's another one: Do you really think the people on the side of
the road care if the riders are doped or not? What effect did the
Festina affair have on the public nimbers on the side of the road?
None! At the end of the day no-one really cares, so long as it doesn't
touch them personally. (it seems to me)

Quoted message said:

It's probably more fun for me than you!

Those words will probably go around my head for months... sometimes the
truth maybe hurts. :-)

I never raced in the lower road categories having come from MTB racing
originally, but I have a lot of friends who race lower categories, and
I love to train with most of them. With those guys no one cares what
"level" you are, you all ride, enjoy riding and everyone gets their ass
kicked at some points. It always brings a smile to my face when a
buddy (who works, doesn't ride much, and hasn't raced for 3 years when
he was a beginner rider beats me in a sprint. (however when I get
beaten in a race with people of my "level" it drives me nuts), that's
the true beauty of cycling, the fun, everyone gets-along, have a good
time side of it.

Keep riding mate!

I'm not jaded... honnest...

DepartFictif said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not too worried about ineffective cheating.

Ah hah.. there we have it. The public's attitude in a few simple
words. Begs the big question. What is it that worries people about
doping? It is only when it effects you that it bothers you? Surely
doping is doping wether effective or not. Aren't dodging the issue by
categorizing effective and non-effective doping?

So here's another one: Do you really think the people on the side of
the road care if the riders are doped or not? What effect did the
Festina affair have on the public nimbers on the side of the road?
None! At the end of the day no-one really cares, so long as it doesn't
touch them personally. (it seems to me)

And what constitutes 'ineffective cheating'? What if someone is taking
things they -believe- will help them cheat - then that's a mind-set that's
not good for cycling, too.

What if the rider is a back-of-the pack cyclist and starts taking EPO and
steroids and uppers moves him up from last to 150th in a group of 200
riders, i.e., middle of the pack (for now)? That's also what many would say
is 'ineffective', though it affects Ryan's position not in the least.

(BTW there are OTC meds that are banned, including herbal stuff.)

I don't know the answer, but it might have something to do with the mixed
messages sent by the public, other riders, certain pros, and certain
officials.

jj

DepartFictif said:

Quoted message said:

It's probably more fun for me than you!

Those words will probably go around my head for months... sometimes the
truth maybe hurts. :-)

I never raced in the lower road categories having come from MTB racing
originally, but I have a lot of friends who race lower categories, and
I love to train with most of them. With those guys no one cares what
"level" you are, you all ride, enjoy riding and everyone gets their ass
kicked at some points. It always brings a smile to my face when a
buddy (who works, doesn't ride much, and hasn't raced for 3 years when
he was a beginner rider beats me in a sprint. (however when I get
beaten in a race with people of my "level" it drives me nuts), that's
the true beauty of cycling, the fun, everyone gets-along, have a good
time side of it.

Keep riding mate!

I'm not jaded... honnest...

Here's a question for you. If someone in your neighborhood, say, was trying
to get back into cycling, was still getting back into shape, and wanted
someone to ride with them, would you consider yourself insulted and refuse
to consider it. No comment on you, just wondering why a skilled rider would
turn down a recreational rider who was maybe 10mph slower than them (15mph
rider vs 20mph rider). Is it that embarrassing, that difficult?

Obviously I understand reluctance if the rider was a complete mismatch -
say a BMX rider, or a downhill MTB rider vs a road bike rider.

In my case the guy was a pro racer in the mid 80s and has continuously
ridden since that time (now in his mid-40s), so he's obviously highly
skilled and would easily drop me.

The students on the cycliing team are Cat-4 riders and absolutely refuse to
ride with someone unless they're turning 4watts/kg or more. Guess they
can't remember when they were on the way up, heh.

jj

Jet said:

What if the rider is a back-of-the pack cyclist and starts taking EPO and
steroids and uppers moves him up from last to 150th in a group of 200
riders, i.e., middle of the pack (for now)? That's also what many would say
is 'ineffective', though it affects Ryan's position not in the least.

Sure it would. Ryan would be bumped from 198th to 199th.

gym (eating nothing but grapes today, they were on sale, and are on the
verge of over-ripening) gravity.

On the contrary. I would be happy to ride with them. The more people
we get into cycling the better. The more you can pass on gained
knowledge the better.

In fact it annoys me sometimes, that I meet people who refuse to ride
with me because they say they "aren't in shape". What people don't
realize is that training doesn't mean going out and riding at warp
speed every day. If' I'm willing to ride with someone, it isn't to rip
their legs off, it's for the company and the fun. You do you fast
days, intervals day etc on your own or with a different group (on your
own is better) and you do recovery rides, or do double days where you
get in some slow miles with other people who may, or may not be as fast
as you when you drop the rubber mallet.

I'm totally sure of your question. Sounds like you asked a 40 year old
ex-pro to ride with you, because others on the cycling team didn't want
to?

Maybe the cat 4 riders you speak of should 1) be less arogant, 2) learn
to train effectivly, 3) wait until the reach at least 6watts/kg before
snubbing anyone...

(does that answer your question?)

Oh OK. Sorry. I get it now. Couple things:

1) ha ha, good for the cat-4 guys, they lost out big time. They could
learn a lot from an ex-pro rider. Not matter what speed, just watching
their pedal stroke, how they sit on the bike, how close the ride to you
etc can teach you a hell of a lot.
2) 4watts/kg for a cat 4 (it goes 5,4,3,2,1,Pro right?) really isn't
bad. (especially as I assume these guys aren't supper lightweight)

Quoted message said:

Guess they can't remember when they were on the way up, heh.

That means they have a very short memory span, they are still on their
way up, and have a long way to go.

My previouse comment on them learning how to train effectively still
stands.

And for anyone out there who's about to write back asking if I really
claim I have a power to weight ratio of 6W/Kg: just leave that comment
well alone would ya!

DepartFictif says...

Quoted message said:

What is it that worries people about doping?

Me personally? I'm not worried about it at all. My opinion is that many
people's view is just too close to it to see the big picture. If I were king,
I'd open the rulebook up and let the dopers go wild. Just level the playing
field. Some of the drugs athletes take shorten their life significantly and to
them, that's a worthwhile tradeoff. I say, let them make that decision and then
pay the price. Ever see the Alzado interview when he was dieing of brain cancer
after doing years of steriods? He rolled the dice, got big and famous then died
young. Winning can become an addiction and because of the money, fame and
short-sightedness, many will go for any cheat they can find. So be it - why
can't we just race? Why not let Tour riders pack pistols and shoot each other?
Who needs rules? Anarchy rules!

Quoted message said:

So here's another one: Do you really think the people on the side of
the road care if the riders are doped or not?

Some of them care a helluva lot. Some people in this group care alot. Don't
you expect to see diversity of opinion on such a controversial topic?

Quoted message said:

At the end of the day no-one really cares, so long as it doesn't
touch them personally. (it seems to me)

Some people are perpetually in search of something to [censored] about. Doping is a
simple and obvious target. Get up on the soap box perched in your ivory tower
and scream: "Doper! Cheater!" into your megaphone. As if you've never cheated
yourself at anything, right?

gym.gravity said:

Jet said:

What if the rider is a back-of-the pack cyclist and starts taking EPO and
steroids and uppers moves him up from last to 150th in a group of 200
riders, i.e., middle of the pack (for now)? That's also what many would say
is 'ineffective', though it affects Ryan's position not in the least.

Sure it would. Ryan would be bumped from 198th to 199th.

gym (eating nothing but grapes today, they were on sale, and are on the
verge of over-ripening) gravity.

Those grapes have soured and evidently made you a mean, mean, man. ;-D

Ryan is in the top 20 positions last time I heard he even won a race in his
Cat, though he says he could qualify to ride Masters Cat.

jj

Mad Dog said:

Ever see the Alzado interview when he was dieing of brain cancer
after doing years of steriods? He rolled the dice, got big and famous then died
young.

Just a quibble. Many steroid experts do not believe that Alzado died from
steroid abuse. His brain cancer was probably caused by something else,
probably his over use of Growth Hormone, or some kind of genetic or
inherited problem. It was a rare type of tumor that has not been associated
with steroid use, though arguably we don't know what kind of strange stuff
he took, nor the source (veterinarian, mexican mystery drugs?).

jj

DepartFictif said:

On the contrary. I would be happy to ride with them. The more people
we get into cycling the better. The more you can pass on gained
knowledge the better.

OK. Just had a little trouble understanding that an ex-pro in their 40s
would be that arrogant. Guess it was just this guy. It gives me new
motivation. Maybe in 5 years when I'm much faster and he's lost some
ground, I'll find him and smoke him on some local hill.

Quoted message said:

In fact it annoys me sometimes, that I meet people who refuse to ride
with me because they say they "aren't in shape". What people don't
realize is that training doesn't mean going out and riding at warp
speed every day.

Exactly. Why not ride with some old guy who's really into riding on one of
his recovery days? Pay it forward stuff, eh?

Quoted message said:

If' I'm willing to ride with someone, it isn't to rip
their legs off, it's for the company and the fun. You do you fast
days, intervals day etc on your own or with a different group (on your
own is better) and you do recovery rides, or do double days where you
get in some slow miles with other people who may, or may not be as fast
as you when you drop the rubber mallet.

Totally makes sense. His loss, imo, because I have a lot of training
experience, though not in cycling.

Quoted message said:

I'm totally sure of your question. Sounds like you asked a 40 year old
ex-pro to ride with you, because others on the cycling team didn't want
to?

The guy emailed our cycling list and asked if anyone had ridden in one area
of the city and asked if anyone wanted to ride about 6pm. I emailed back
and said 'where do you normally ride, where is this location, and said
sorry to bug you'. He took it as some sort of smart-alec comment (???) and
was instantly defensive. He thought (again ??) I was some hot-headed
teenager challenging him. Why I don't know, reading over my totally
innocuous reply.

In his first message he asked about riders who were not 'Askeerd of riding
in traffic' as though others on the bike list (the local Univ. team mailing
list) would be afraid of traffic? This is puzzling, b/c the cycling team
rides in traffic all the time. I even asked where he got the notion that
some in-town riders were 'askeerd' (his spelling). There was an incident
where a member of the team was badly injured in a hit-and-run about a year
ago. Maybe he was challenging -them-, like he's got a permanent chip on his
shoulder. (He was a former bike shop owner and rode the duPont in the
mid-80s.)

Quoted message said:

Maybe the cat 4 riders you speak of should 1) be less arogant, 2) learn
to train effectivly, 3) wait until the reach at least 6watts/kg before
snubbing anyone...

Well I'm probably only getting 3watts/kg, but I can still do an easy
recovery ride just for the company, you'd think. One of the new students
coming on board asked about riding and one of the list members said 'well
you have to be able to ride 4watts/kg or maybe you should join the chess
club or something.'

Quoted message said:

(does that answer your question?)

Yep. Thanks.

jj

DepartFictif said:

Oh OK. Sorry. I get it now. Couple things:

1) ha ha, good for the cat-4 guys, they lost out big time. They could
learn a lot from an ex-pro rider. Not matter what speed, just watching
their pedal stroke, how they sit on the bike, how close the ride to you
etc can teach you a hell of a lot.

No, I confused you - my fault. The ex-pro jumped on the Cat-4 U team riders
list and asked for riders. I presumed he knew them being in the cycling
'scene' around town and maybe was kidding with them.

Quoted message said:

2) 4watts/kg for a cat 4 (it goes 5,4,3,2,1,Pro right?) really isn't
bad. (especially as I assume these guys aren't supper lightweight)

They are all skinny 20-23 year old students and most of them have only
ridden Cat 4 and maybe some Cat 3. I think one of last year's guys had won
a Cat 2 race.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Guess they can't remember when they were on the way up, heh.

Quoted message said:

That means they have a very short memory span, they are still on their
way up, and have a long way to go.

Heh. Yeh.

Quoted message said:

My previouse comment on them learning how to train effectively still
stands.

And for anyone out there who's about to write back asking if I really
claim I have a power to weight ratio of 6W/Kg: just leave that comment
well alone would ya!

? Okay?

jj

Ohhh... now I REALLY get it. So sorry, I was totally confused and make
things a terrible mess.. NOW I get it.
Yep, that's strange... some guys don't like riding with people who
aren't experienced.. it can be really annoying when people half wheel
you, don't ride bar to bar, or just aren't used to riding close. I've
tried it (my nasty side) riding with a bunch of cat 1s and 2s in the US
a while ago (young fit guys) it annoys ma little when people
(esspecialllly of that level) ride about 1m away from you.. so as we
were chatting I moved closer, they moved, away, I kept chatting and
slowly moved closer.. they moved away.. we ended up on totally the wron
side of the road.... silly little things like that can get annoying on
a ride... maybe this guy just didn't want to think about that [censored], and
his only way of judging if people where experienced was by fitness...
Still it's sad, I think it is nice to pass on what you know to new
riders... oh well.. c'est la vie.

Sorry about the confustion..
PS: don't take the [censored] out of the guy's spelling.. have you seen
mine?! ;-)

DepartFictif said:

tried it (my nasty side) riding with a bunch of cat 1s and 2s in the US

How's the experience from the other side, you riding with Stuey when he's
home?

--
E. Dronkert

Home where? Toulouse, Lavaur or Adeleide?

DepartFictif said:

Home where? Toulouse, Lavaur or Adeleide?

Well I guess Toulouse's the most likely place where you two would ever be
at the same time.

--
E. Dronkert