preparation experience

I love getting anonymous instruction on the web for how to administer
potentially harmful drug regiments.

Is this for real?

i get the distinct impression that yes - this is for real,
the one dude sounds like a french amatuer or something,
and the other dude an aussie maybe.
why they are discussing doping on RBR is an interesting
question.
or it may be the same dude, just messing around.

Andrew F Martin said:

Is this for real?

Why not? With doping such a central concern in cycling today I'm
surprised such a thread hasn't occurred until now, and doesn't happen
more frequently.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew F Martin said:

I love getting anonymous instruction on the web for how to administer
potentially harmful drug regiments.

What's your favourite drug regiment? Mine is the famous Pembroke
Amphetamines, who forced the surrender of the French during the 1797
Invasion of Wales.

You don't march to Fishguard on bread and water,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

thank you. that's interesting. i haven't noticed the shoulders, but i
am often tight all over, i figured that was due to the training load.
effectively you are saying training on diprostene is a bad move.
racing with it on rare occasions will increase performance, but
frequent use and using it during training are counter productive.
that is exactly the kind of information i was hunting for. funny how
difficult it is to find such information. according to what you have
said i have screwed up my whole season. things have not been going too
well this year, with a new team and more pressure i wanted to race well
early in the year. the more i failed to perform, the more i used the
diprostene. ironic.
thanx

You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
4 pack is taking kenacort...

Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
captured right here in rbr for your amusement.

Livedrunk,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Andrew F Martin said:

Quoted message said:

I love getting anonymous instruction on the web for how to administer
potentially harmful drug regiments.

Ryan Cousineau said:

What's your favourite drug regiment? Mine is the famous Pembroke
Amphetamines, who forced the surrender of the French during the 1797
Invasion of Wales.

You don't march to Fishguard on bread and water,

Enough orange juice might work though (or so I'm told).

Ryan Cousineau said:

You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
4 pack is taking kenacort...

Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
captured right here in rbr for your amusement.

maybe it's better with the omerta.

OK strange person,
So here's what I know about your "grape" thing. I've never followed
that method before, and I have not personally used "Mabuse". But from
what I know, the Grape thing was more of an obsession with him than
anything else. He worked heavily with EPO (Eprex2000) and growth
hormones, associated to Iron (obvious reasons), Vitamin B12, Prefolick
(or something like that) to replace folic acid (I think) and something
(I don't remember what it was called) to stop the blood from getting
too thick. He also often prescribed Testosterone. He then often had
guys eat strange things, such as nothing but grapes for a day before
the race, or sometimes he would tell riders to eat a very specific
quantity of carrots (nothing else) for 3 or 4 days during training, or
10 radishes a day for a week... just strange stuff. From what I've
seen, the dietary thing (that you seem to have focused on) was
something only he was into, I'm sure he had his reasons, but the diet
in itself didn't bring much to the equation (unless some of the
science/medical guys on this list can prove/tell me/you otherwise).
Lots of docs followed similar methods, but the food [censored] singled him
out.

It sounds to me like you are tying to get ahead of yourself. There are
some simple things you can take (in moderation) to improve performance,
but if you are having to ask advice on this kind of open forum thing...
I would say you aren't ready. Get out there and train, race and see
what happens/what comes your way.

You saw what the other guy said, and you said it yourself, you've
messed up your season by trying to play "big boy int he peleton"...

Once again: where are you racing?

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew F Martin said:

Is this for real?

Why not? With doping such a central concern in cycling today I'm surprised
such a thread hasn't occurred until now, and doesn't happen more
frequently.

http://tinyurl.com/ahcgr

http://tinyurl.com/9tdeh

Wow - that second one is pretty shady I'd say. The first one is pretty
sad. There's been rumors that locals racers are even on the juice, but
I never put much faith in it.

.. Andrew F Martin wrote:
Wow - that second one is pretty shady I'd say. The first one is pretty

sad. There's been rumors that locals racers are even on the juice, but

I never put much faith in it.

people love to talk [censored] about doping, oh rider x got good real quick =
doper.
but on the other hand, sometimes it's true.
Steroids have become a recreation drug, easily available and seen as
being
low risk.
i used to know a dude who injected himself with tons of equine
testesterone suspension
that he bought at a horse supply store - he was a mid 30's non-athlete
guy who worked at the mall.
he said it made him feel strong and confident.
I worked in a vitamin store and sold supplements to athletes for about
3 years,
bodybuilders, runners, triathletes, would come in and talk about
steroid use -
I live near mexico and all that stuff is readily available. I met and
became
friends with some world
class african runners, and I learned something I always pass on to
people when they ask me about doping in cycling :
all these other athletes would assume that I knew all kinds of stuff
about doping, because I was a cyclist and they considered using deca
and steroids like that as completely safe and normal,
and HGH and EPO to them was cutting edge at the time -
they also said that cyclists had the reputation in the sporting
world as being the most daring and experimental when it came to doping,

cyclists were the cutting edge to them. I don't want to get specific
but these
guys were world class, top 10 in the world.
I remember being a little surprised at how unsophisticated they were
about
all that stuff really - certainly not organized or under dr.'s
supervision.
they also used to just fly tons of that stuff over from there, just
stuck in their jackets,
they would say it was medicine if anyone asked they would said - I'm
sure things are
a little different today.

anyway, I'd say that some local racers in your are probably on the
juice - speed and anabolics
probably. There is really no way of knowing and I learned that the guys

that are "well know dopers" aren't always taking anything, and some
squeky clean nerdy rightous types do use, secretively and discretely,
they don't ever talk about it or associate with anyone who does.
Steroid use is becoming more and more widespread of legitimate
"anti-aging"
M.D's, mostly in california.
in the end my attitude is who cares, some of the guys doping still
suck, and the local
and regional guys who are doping are all rolling the dice with their
health and reputation -
my opinion about the pros is a little different, those guys are just
"doing their job" - the only answer is changing the job really.

im absolutely sure eveyone else on the list has these exact same
problems,
sometimes when I get home from work, play with the kid, water the lawn,

I'm all thirsty, and the I wake up grinding the teeth,
I too blame the diprostene/kenacort stack I'm taking for the local 10K
TT
series...uh, no, I would say you and this other guy are in the distinct
minority
here, I've read angry arguments about cheating and morality over the
abuse of RED BULL
in here.
It's interesting though don't get me wrong, I'm assuming you are french
though,
because corticosteroids aren't real popular here in the USA.
critmonkeys like the deca, equipoise and sostenon.

In article <[email hidden]>,

gym.gravity said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
4 pack is taking kenacort...

Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
captured right here in rbr for your amusement.

maybe it's better with the omerta.

It's certainly less embarrassing. Maybe it will be a syndicated reality
show: "America's Dumbest Dopers."

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

gym.gravity said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
4 pack is taking kenacort...

Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
captured right here in rbr for your amusement.

maybe it's better with the omerta.

It's certainly less embarrassing. Maybe it will be a syndicated reality
show: "America's Dumbest Dopers."

Seems to me the average athlete, in any sport is probably the human least suited
by training and temperment to have a solid grip on advanced biochemistry and
pharmacology.

Ron

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

gym.gravity said:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
> 4 pack is taking kenacort...
>
> Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
> captured right here in rbr for your amusement.
>

maybe it's better with the omerta.

It's certainly less embarrassing. Maybe it will be a syndicated reality
show: "America's Dumbest Dopers."

Seems to me the average athlete, in any sport is probably the human least
suited
by training and temperment to have a solid grip on advanced biochemistry and
pharmacology.

Well, there's a lot of average amateur cyclists who are doctors (and
lawyers), so I think you exaggerate some, but it's still true that
there's a fair bit of counterproductive doping out there.

I mean, good heavens! A rider is willing to engage in an illegal,
immoral, potentially dangerous, and fairly expensive training regimen,
and doesn't pause to figure out what they're doing? I suspect some of
these guys put more research into their next computer purchase than they
do into their drug use. Maybe because if they thought about it too much,
they'd realize how screwed up it was.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In many ways you are right. But you mustn't forget that it isn't really
that simple. Why would a rider research the products when everyone
around them is taking more than them (can't be THAT dangerouse then)
and when everyone around them tells them it's OK. Sometimes it is in
fact healthier to take some products rather than force your body into
iron defficiency, or pushing your body more that it can really handle
it.

As for the illegal and immoral issue, when faced with the situation it
doesn't appear either illegal or immoral, it's only from the outside
that it looks so clear cut. Riders taking products don't see it as
illegal and are not faced with a moral issue. As for the danger side,
well... not much to say there, it's a scary world.

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"gym.gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > You know, maybe this explains my recent results, if the rest of the Cat
> > 4 pack is taking kenacort...
> >
> > Sheesh. Counterproductive therapies. Great moments in doping folks,
> > captured right here in rbr for your amusement.
> >
>
> maybe it's better with the omerta.

It's certainly less embarrassing. Maybe it will be a syndicated reality
show: "America's Dumbest Dopers."

Seems to me the average athlete, in any sport is probably the human least
suited
by training and temperment to have a solid grip on advanced biochemistry and
pharmacology.

Well, there's a lot of average amateur cyclists who are doctors (and
lawyers), so I think you exaggerate some, but it's still true that
there's a fair bit of counterproductive doping out there.

All of the reasons that one of those is an amateur and the other is a
professional are the reasons that one can learn this stuff and the other
doesn't.

Quoted message said:

I mean, good heavens! A rider is willing to engage in an illegal,
immoral, potentially dangerous, and fairly expensive training regimen,
and doesn't pause to figure out what they're doing? I suspect some of
these guys put more research into their next computer purchase than they
do into their drug use. Maybe because if they thought about it too much,
they'd realize how screwed up it was.

I can't agree that it is immoral. If there was a pill that made someone a better
surgeon we would insist he take it. If an injection made you better at your job,
wouldn't it make sense.

The days of amateur sportsmanship are over.

Ron

RonSonic said:

I can't agree that it is immoral. If there was a pill that made someone a better
surgeon we would insist he take it. If an injection made you better at your job,
wouldn't it make sense.

The days of amateur sportsmanship are over.

Ron

thats an interesting idea, I don't think the clerk at the 7-11 would
take a potentially deangerous injection to make him better at his job -
a lawyer or dr. maybe.
so then a cat 3 who wants to win the [censored] county crit shouldn't
take dope,
but hey whatever, it's your body.

I think you are right about the amateur thing too, look at the
olympics.
I do however, have much respect for cat. 1's with jobs who do well
locally and regionally, beating the pros when they come to their areas
to race. some of them could have been pro but chose another path - that
didn't involve doping or riding for $500 a month.

In article <[email hidden]>,

DepartFictif said:

In many ways you are right. But you mustn't forget that it isn't really
that simple. Why would a rider research the products when everyone
around them is taking more than them (can't be THAT dangerouse then)
and when everyone around them tells them it's OK. Sometimes it is in
fact healthier to take some products rather than force your body into
iron defficiency, or pushing your body more that it can really handle
it.

No. If you're anemic, you can get a (permitted) prescription. Just like
Lance took EPO during cancer rehab. Some mundane and safe stuff is
actually permitted in reasonable doses (caffeine in cups-of-coffee
doses, but not in handfuls-of-pep-pills doses)

Quoted message said:

As for the illegal and immoral issue, when faced with the situation it
doesn't appear either illegal or immoral, it's only from the outside
that it looks so clear cut. Riders taking products don't see it as
illegal and are not faced with a moral issue. As for the danger side,
well... not much to say there, it's a scary world.

The questions you have to ask yourself, I think, are thus:

1-Is doping dangerous?

2-Does doping improve the sport?

3-What does it do to the future of the sport?

Here's my (debatable) answers to these three questions, briefly:

1-Yes. Riders have died by the dozen from EPO experimentation, the
tell-alls on the subject routinely speak of weird reactions, et cetera.
Now, there is some credit to the idea that legal doping would increase
the medical oversight, thus reducing some of the "the horse medicine
made me sick" experiences out there. Also, some of the stuff people talk
about (maybe HGH. Maybe.) has the prospect of becoming a near-mainstream
panacea at some point. Though not now.

What worries me is that first of all, the long-term effects of most dope
are either unknown or bad, and mostly the latter. Especially in the
excitingly recreational doses current dopers are prone to, it's pretty
darned dangerous. EPO can kill you in your sleep, or maybe give you
cancer in the long term. HGH is simply an unknown, though certain big
fans of Lance here have been known to suggest that it accelerates the
growth of cancers. As for steroids, they won't kill you in your sleep,
but have just about every other imaginable side effect, including
messing up some of your more vital vitals, like the liver.

Even doctor-supervised legal doping still surely means that the riders
are limited to a set "safe" dosage, and surely one rider after another
will try to cheat the safe limits in the chase for an edge, which is
what dopers do right now. So there you are again, testing the riders,
only now you allow some dope and some suspicious Hct readings, instead
of none. And the cheaters will still try to game the system, and the
rest of the peloton will still feel pressure to keep up or give up,
admittedly at probably smaller margins than today between "clean" and
"dirty" competitors (which is to say, legally doped versus illegally
doped).

2-The races get a bit faster. But not better. The riders go further and
are stronger, so maybe the racing can be a tad more epic, but mostly
that would be likely to mean that we would have to beef up some historic
events, or perhaps return the TdF to some of its suicidal race distances
of the pre-war era. Oh yeah, and the hour records get kinda crazy.

None of that makes the racing any better. This is the NASCAR lesson:
racing which is fair and close is a big draw, even if the cars are
relatively slow. The drug-powered pack would be measurably faster, but
we're talking a few km/h at most. I will entertain theories that this
would make the racing "better", but I am _extremely_ skeptical there
would be any substantial differences. I mean, it will be the same
riders, just juiced. It's not like baseball even, where doping hitters
mean more home runs than usual.

Meanwhile, being an openly dopey sport is likely to have a few effects:
we'll be chasing down drug cheats, but just for being even more drugged
than their competitors. That's hardly an improvement. Any riders who are
currently clean will essentially have to dope, thanks to the perverse
game theory of this model. And sponsors, most likely, will flee. You
don't want to be on the same jersey as recreational steroid ads. You
don't want to be in the same sport.

3-The future. It's trite to say "think of the kids", but if I have
misgivings about encouraging any future kids of mine to take up
competitive cycling, mandatory (and as I've outlined above, I think
"legal" and "mandatory" would amount to the same thing) dope would make
me certain to drive them away from the sport.

Aside from the disturbing thought of deciding how soon to let young
riders dope, or the prospect of being the coach who has to tell their
prospective parents that little Johnny will be expected to dope next
year if he wants to make the local semi-pro team, the effect on amateur
cycling would be similarly insane. I certainly can't see any scenario
where open doping doesn't choke the life out of most junior development
programs.

Even if doping was limited to Pros only, I strongly suspect it would
spread like wildfire to the amateur ranks. The guys who already have the
be-like-Lance OCLV and the be-like-Jens Zipp 404s and the
train-like-the-pros SRM and Carmichael subscriptions will eat up the EPO
endorsed with the slogan "It's Millar Time!" Worse, to the extent that
espoir and elite amateur racing are pro-development systems, they'll
also become more dopey (and without all that doctor supervision the pros
will get). Show of hands: hundreds of new EPO deaths, or thousands? If
you're lucky, you might get mere dozens. And if you want a new-cyclist
recruiting tool, wait 20 years when the retired heroes of the sport,
instead of greeting the next generation with a handshake beside the
podium, will instead be fighting off whatever exciting long-term effects
of their favourite drug they discovered.

So there you go. Pro doping: dangerous, expensive, and destructive to
the future of the sport; we'll still have to do drug tests, and some
riders will still do stupid and reckless things that mess up their help
(viva kenacort!). But the hour record will be broken, and we'll all be
nice and honest and unhypocritical. Hypocrisy is underrated: at least
the hypocrites still know they are doing wrong. The decriminalization of
doping proposed by some here strikes me as a "harm amplification"
program, something designed to increase the amount of peloton doping.

I'd like to choose a dope-free sport. We're not there, we may not be
terribly close, and we may never get there. We'll see. But a close
second choice would be to inculcate a culture of non-doping. Let's get
some more riders out there wearing "Dopers Suck" shirts, telling young
riders "real men do it on bread and water," and generally encouraging
all involved to look down on dopers as weak, stupid, and the enemy of
cycling. More testing, better testing, and fiercer challenges to the
gaming of dope tests would all help, but the culture of cycling could go
a long way to un-screwing the sport.

On the other hand, I have a real fear that WADA and the UCI, out of a
well-meaning but overzealous desire to clean up the sport, may have gone
too far in pushing the world of drug detection beyond the science. I'm
not a well-versed statistician or medical researcher, but there's a fair
number of people here who seem to know numbers and biology and who are
skeptical that they're not pushing into career-ruining
false-positive-land.

There's no easy solution to cycling's drug problem. There may be no good
solution. But I'm pretty sure that legalized doping, at least the way
I've seen it proposed here, is about the second-worst solution possible.

Take kenacort,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

Quoted message said:

You don't march to Fishguard on bread and water,

Donald Munro said:

Enough orange juice might work though (or so I'm told).

DepartFictif said:

OK strange person,
So here's what I know about your "grape" thing. I've never followed
that method before, and I have not personally used "Mabuse". But from
what I know, the Grape thing was more of an obsession with him than
anything else. He worked heavily with EPO (Eprex2000) and growth
hormones, associated to Iron (obvious reasons), Vitamin B12, Prefolick
(or something like that) to replace folic acid (I think) and something
(I don't remember what it was called) to stop the blood from getting
too thick. He also often prescribed Testosterone. He then often had
guys eat strange things, such as nothing but grapes for a day before
the race, or sometimes he would tell riders to eat a very specific
quantity of carrots (nothing else) for 3 or 4 days during training, or
10 radishes a day for a week... just strange stuff.

Are you talking to me or alias_noone ? Anyway I'm sure most of the fat
masters on rbr would prefer a diet of doughnuts and pizza to radishes
and carrots the day before a race.