Pam does it!

the funniest part of the news report is

". Karnazes, who quit his run after 262 miles, told the Citizen he
might have been able to do it if he ran a flat course like Reed. His
course was partly in the hills of northern California."

is that a slam or what? hahahaha. karnazes is a good guy....but was
it necessary for him to throw this jab in public to pam's local press?
it is her day after all... he could have taken the high road, said
nothing...charted his own 350 mile flat course and topped. her. but
nooooooo. karnazes has to sprinkle a little rain on pam's
parade.....too funny.

there's no way pam reads/hears karnazes words and takes them in any
context other than slightly diminishing her feat. nothing like the
aroma of sour grapes....hahahaha.

i saw a photo of her....her clothes look freshly ironed/pressed and
cleaned....as she crossed the finish....hummmmmm?

Quoted message said:

the funniest part of the news report is

". Karnazes, who quit his run after 262 miles, told the Citizen he
might have been able to do it if he ran a flat course like Reed. His
course was partly in the hills of northern California."

yep. i saw that too. not quite the sportsman he plays himself
up to be. she did great and did look good crossing the finish.
nothing like a support van.
....thehick

Dot wrote in message

Quoted message said:

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/032805reed.php

admittedly they don't explain what "nonstop" means, but one of the other
papers did
--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Congratulations to Pam. This is clearly a great accomplishment, but it's an
outlier from the organized ultra world and really does not deserve the
attention it's getting.

From a website about Yannis Kouros, on route to his 1000 mile world record
in 1988:

'The first day, Yiannis covered 144 miles. By the fourth day, he had 456
miles put away. He had not slept at all. "I didn't sleep for the first four
days because of low flying jet aircraft taking off and landing every few
minutes close to the circuit." (Rafferty {UR}) The first sleep he took, he
wanted only one hour and forty five minutes, but, "I came to the point when
my body was almost dead."'

http://www.lehigh.edu/dmd1/public/www-data/yiannis.html

Thus, the not sleeping for 300 miles appears to be non-starter. I was trying
to find a more definitive website on comparable extreme ultra records, but
was unable to come up with much. Anyone who knows of such please share them.

-Tony

Dot said:

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/032805reed.php

admittedly they don't explain what "nonstop" means, but one of the other
papers did

And they don't explain what "run" means either (i.e., when
does a run become a "walk" -- at 3mph or at Pam's faster
3.75 mph?) OTOH it does plug her new soon to be for sale
autobiography. Be interesting to see whose book does better,
her's or Dean K's...

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

the funniest part of the news report is

". Karnazes, who quit his run after 262 miles, told the Citizen he
might have been able to do it if he ran a flat course like Reed. His
course was partly in the hills of northern California."

is that a slam or what? hahahaha. karnazes is a good guy....but
was
it necessary for him to throw this jab in public to pam's local press?

'Tis tacky.

Quoted message said:

i saw a photo of her....her clothes look freshly ironed/pressed and
cleaned....as she crossed the finish....hummmmmm?

I don't think I have ever done a race with her and the only time I have
heard her speak was in the 60 Minutes Piece. I though she came across
very well, classy. Even Karnazes sounded very reasonable but he does
have a tendency, and maybe rightfully so, to blow smoke up his own ass.

-DougF

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com of 28 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations to Pam. This is clearly a great accomplishment, but
it's an outlier from the organized ultra world and really does not
deserve the attention it's getting.

From a website about Yannis Kouros, on route to his 1000 mile world
record in 1988:

'The first day, Yiannis covered 144 miles. By the fourth day, he had
456 miles put away. He had not slept at all. "I didn't sleep for the
first four days because of low flying jet aircraft taking off and
landing every few minutes close to the circuit." (Rafferty {UR}) The
first sleep he took, he wanted only one hour and forty five minutes,
but, "I came to the point when my body was almost dead."'

http://www.lehigh.edu/dmd1/public/www-data/yiannis.html

Thus, the not sleeping for 300 miles appears to be non-starter. I was
trying to find a more definitive website on comparable extreme ultra
records, but was unable to come up with much. Anyone who knows of such
please share them.

No, but more on Yiannis Kouros
http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml

Kouros is clearly the owner of the WR in several ultra-distance events.
What I don't understand is Pam and Dean's state of denial that the guy
even existed.

Phil M.

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from [email hidden] of 28
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml

Kouros is clearly the owner of the WR in several ultra-distance events.
What I don't understand is Pam and Dean's state of denial that the guy
even existed.

It won't help them sell their books and lessens
their status on 60 minutes?

I still don't undertand it.

Phil M.

Doug Freese said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

the funniest part of the news report is

". Karnazes, who quit his run after 262 miles, told the Citizen he
might have been able to do it if he ran a flat course like Reed. His
course was partly in the hills of northern California."

is that a slam or what? hahahaha. karnazes is a good guy....but
was
it necessary for him to throw this jab in public to pam's local press?

'Tis tacky.

Was that statement before or after Pam's run? There's almost an
identical statement in the Mar 23 edition - before the run. But the main
gist of it was stated back in early February, if not earlier.

I'm just curious, but has anyone ever seen a direct statement by DK that
he was trying to run 300 miles and only reached 262 last fall?
Everything I've seen indicated that he been running that relay solo for
a few years and tacking mileage on the end, just to see what was
possible. The fall 2004 goal was 262 miles. So, yea, he quit when he
reached his goal of 262 miles, which included 199 miles in a formal
event. Isn't that when most of us "quit"?

http://www.therelay.com/re_press04_5Dean.htm
DK's goal "before" the event was to run 262 miles. But because that
fund-raiser was run on a hilly course in the rain, he felt that 300
miles should be possible with better conditions. Thus he developed a new
goal for himself.

On Feb 8, 2005, from
http://runtrails.blogspot.com/2005/02/interview-with-dean-karnazes.html

"2) Do you think there is any limit to how far a human could run in one
shot?

DK: I think the biggest barriers are psychological, not physical. The
human body is an amazing machine; if we can just get beyond our
perceived limitations, I think we can achieve more than we ever thought
possible.The farthest I’ve gone in a single push is 262 miles. That was
three nights without sleep, which got pretty psycho. The course I
followed (Bodega Bay to Calistoga to Santa Cruz) was pretty hilly, and
it rained for twenty of the hours I was running, which was a drag. On an
easier course with better weather conditions, I think 300 miles nonstop
is doable."

Read all the dialog at the end, including responses from DK. When I read
this a month or so - before the general media got involved - I had
formed (and still have) a very different impression from what others are
forming now based on general media.

But regardless of all this he said, she said, and misinterpretations by
press and running groups, Pam still did an incredible job.

Congratulations, Pam.

But the 300-mile thingy is just that - in both their cases.

BTW, another AZ paper seems to have done a better job on what was
actually being aimed for: "to become the first woman to run 300 miles
straight without sleep"
http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/67664.php

Quoted message said:

I don't think I have ever done a race with her and the only time I have
heard her speak was in the 60 Minutes Piece. I though she came across
very well, classy. Even Karnazes sounded very reasonable but he does
have a tendency, and maybe rightfully so, to blow smoke up his own ass.

I think they both came across well. Dean comes across like a guy I used
to work with - who incidentally won the solo division of one of those
semi-adventure races (A to B anyway you can get across the mountains).
So I may be interpreting some of his mannerisms differently from others
because of his similarity to my friend.

In the meantime, the Iditarod runner has completed over 900 miles,
instead of hacking away at keyboards. He's apparently having an
experience of a lifetime with a herd of caribou.

Now back to real running or shoveling snow, depending on where you are 😉

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Phil M. said:

http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml

Kouros is clearly the owner of the WR in several ultra-distance events.
What I don't understand is Pam and Dean's state of denial that the guy
even existed.

It won't help them sell their books and lessens
their status on 60 minutes?

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com of 28 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations to Pam. This is clearly a great accomplishment, but
it's an outlier from the organized ultra world and really does not
deserve the attention it's getting.

From a website about Yannis Kouros, on route to his 1000 mile world
record in 1988:

'The first day, Yiannis covered 144 miles. By the fourth day, he had
456 miles put away. He had not slept at all. "I didn't sleep for the
first four days because of low flying jet aircraft taking off and
landing every few minutes close to the circuit." (Rafferty {UR}) The
first sleep he took, he wanted only one hour and forty five minutes,
but, "I came to the point when my body was almost dead."'

http://www.lehigh.edu/dmd1/public/www-data/yiannis.html

Thus, the not sleeping for 300 miles appears to be non-starter. I was
trying to find a more definitive website on comparable extreme ultra
records, but was unable to come up with much. Anyone who knows of such
please share them.

No, but more on Yiannis Kouros
http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml

Kouros is clearly the owner of the WR in several ultra-distance events.
What I don't understand is Pam and Dean's state of denial that the guy
even existed.

Phil M.

Tony and Phil,

Yes, I agree. I couldn't remember where I had seen the lehigh link. In a
couple different places, I've seen where DK had looked for such records
- including contacting some organizations, but maybe not the right
ones. I doubt that the sleep or no is documented in the races stats
officially, so there may be no official records. Kinda like, did
Phedippides (sp?) run a marathon if a marathon is only a race (aside
from any issues regarding whether this was real or legend)? When he
arrived at Sparta in the first Spartathlon (which is documented), did he
sleep or return immediately - that's close to 300 mi, isn't it? What
about the Tarahumara indians?

From
http://runtrails.blogspot.com/2005/02/interview-with-dean-karnazes.html
"Regarding the recent 262 mile run, it was a nonstop effort. That said,
I did stop to change more than I would have liked to. It rained for
about 20 hours along the way, and I got saturated. So I changed my
outfit and shoes to try and prevent blisters. My intention was not to
change as much as I did, but sometimes Mother Nature can alter even the
best laid plans :-).

"Regarding a world record for the longest continuous run, there really
is no record to speak of. Defining “continuous” becomes blurry, I am
told, because no one has ever defined what stopping means. Is changing
your shoes considered stopping? Using the restroom? Etc… Also, the
course makes a big difference. Running in the bay area, with all the
hills, is much more difficult than when I’ve run around a flat track.
So, if you were really trying to crack 300 miles, doing it on a running
track would certainly be the easiest format (but not nearly as fun!).

"Men’s Journal called the 262 mile run an unconfirmed record. To be
honest, I wasn’t trying to set any records, I was doing it as a
fundraiser for organ donation as part of the Saturn Relay
(www.TheRelay.com). I succeeded in reaching my fundraising goals, which
means more to me than setting any running record."

I hate posting Dean things on what was to be Pam's thread, but I've read
more about him than her since he does things that involve snow.

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dot.h@#duh?att.net of 28
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

"Men’s Journal called the 262 mile run an unconfirmed record. To be
honest, I wasn’t trying to set any records, I was doing it as a
fundraiser for organ donation as part of the Saturn Relay
(www.TheRelay.com). I succeeded in reaching my fundraising goals, which
means more to me than setting any running record."

So basically Dean and Pam are claiming a different sort of record from
Kouros. Even though Kouros' times were way faster than Dean's, the fact
that he stopped make it non-continuous.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dot.h@#duh?att.net of 28
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

"Men’s Journal called the 262 mile run an unconfirmed record. To be
honest, I wasn’t trying to set any records, I was doing it as a
fundraiser for organ donation as part of the Saturn Relay
(www.TheRelay.com). I succeeded in reaching my fundraising goals, which
means more to me than setting any running record."

So basically Dean and Pam are claiming a different sort of record from
Kouros. Even though Kouros' times were way faster than Dean's, the fact
that he stopped make it non-continuous.

Phil M.

Pam's claiming 1st female, and that gets around all the issues. I know
both Dean and Pam own up to stopping either to change clothes, massage,
etc. And Pam definitely walked and I'm assuming Dean did also. So their
definition of running or continuous running is the same as used in any
race - forward motion with stops for most anything under the sun. The
thing that differs is whether they slept or not.

I'm not sure what Dean's claiming to do - maybe longest point-to-point
without sleeping?

Time is not a factor in anything that Dean or Pam are claiming to do.

I'd be interested in what their splits were (Pam's 300, Dean's 262,
although Dean's would be hard with hills) since they both had distances
in mind that they were going to run. It seems like Pam got really slow
at the end (and justifiably) and reportedly was taken to hospital for IV
because of dehydration, but I could be wrong.

In this interview
http://www.enduranceradio.com/transcripts/03-04-05_Dean_Karnazes.htm
he indicates his try for 300 will be adding 100 miles to the 200 mile
relay race that he's been running for a number of years - and adding a
little bit each year.
http://www.therelay.com/re_press04_5Dean.htm

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dot.h@#duh?att.net of 28
Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

"Men’s Journal called the 262 mile run an unconfirmed record. To be
honest, I wasn’t trying to set any records, I was doing it as a
fundraiser for organ donation as part of the Saturn Relay
(www.TheRelay.com). I succeeded in reaching my fundraising goals, which
means more to me than setting any running record."

So basically Dean and Pam are claiming a different sort of record from
Kouros. Even though Kouros' times were way faster than Dean's, the fact
that he stopped make it non-continuous.

Pam's claiming 1st female, and that gets around all the issues. I know
both Dean and Pam own up to stopping either to change clothes, massage,
etc. And Pam definitely walked and I'm assuming Dean did also. So their
definition of running or continuous running is the same as used in any
race - forward motion with stops for most anything under the sun. The
thing that differs is whether they slept or not.

Are they on their feet the whole time, or do they sit/lie down ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

......Dot....does DK have you on retainer?

"....told the Citizen he
might have been able to do it if he ran a flat course like Reed. His
course was partly in the hills of northern California."

Dot, the newspaper itself is reporting what DK said to them first hand
and direct. Do you think the newspaper is not being accurate? it
really does not matter much if it was before or after, why reduce and
or marginalize the lady's run? that's exactly what he did by saying
his was the tougher challenge and feeling the need to place himself in
separating context.

i think it reflects that even great guys like DK like their spotlight,
being on top, and not crazy about sharing the stage.....let alone being
topped. DK was just being honest on how he really felt in comparison
and context to Pam. I would expect Tiger Woods and Lance Armstrong to
feel similar...but perhaps just not say it.

you don't need to defend DK and try and spin to imrove his posture.
DK should simply do 300 or however how far he wants to go on terrain
and in an environment that's going to support the effort......that's
all....

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pam's claiming 1st female, and that gets around all the issues. I know
both Dean and Pam own up to stopping either to change clothes,
massage, etc. And Pam definitely walked and I'm assuming Dean did
also. So their definition of running or continuous running is the same
as used in any race - forward motion with stops for most anything
under the sun. The thing that differs is whether they slept or not.

Game, set, match.
-DF

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Are they on their feet the whole time, or do they sit/lie down ?

I'm sure they are laying down when they are being massaged. FWIW sleep
is THE issue, not motion, not position etc.

-DF

Doug Freese said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Are they on their feet the whole time, or do they sit/lie down ?

I'm sure they are laying down when they are being massaged. FWIW sleep
is THE issue, not motion, not position etc.

But if sleep is the issue, then Kouros has the legit record, right (456 miles,
in 4 days, I think) ? I can see why Karnazes is trying to obfuscate the issue
with some contrived "record" -- it's because he's not in the same class
(athletically or otherwise) as Kouros.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

you don't need to defend DK and try and spin to imrove his posture.
DK should simply do 300 or however how far he wants to go on terrain
and in an environment that's going to support the effort......that's
all....

Even if he does the 300, it's still not a record (not an international one
anyway).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com of 28 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations to Pam. This is clearly a great accomplishment, but
it's an outlier from the organized ultra world and really does not
deserve the attention it's getting.

From a website about Yannis Kouros, on route to his 1000 mile world
record in 1988:

'The first day, Yiannis covered 144 miles. By the fourth day, he had
456 miles put away. He had not slept at all. "I didn't sleep for the
first four days because of low flying jet aircraft taking off and
landing every few minutes close to the circuit." (Rafferty {UR}) The
first sleep he took, he wanted only one hour and forty five minutes,
but, "I came to the point when my body was almost dead."'

http://www.lehigh.edu/dmd1/public/www-data/yiannis.html

Thus, the not sleeping for 300 miles appears to be non-starter. I was
trying to find a more definitive website on comparable extreme ultra
records, but was unable to come up with much. Anyone who knows of such
please share them.

No, but more on Yiannis Kouros
http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml

Kouros is clearly the owner of the WR in several ultra-distance events.
What I don't understand is Pam and Dean's state of denial that the guy
even existed.

Phil M.

Nice article thanks Phil. Damn 303.5 km in 24 hours; 188.5 miles, 7.85mph,
7:38min/mile... truly amazing.

-Tony