[OT] veggie oil powered car



James Annan wrote:
>
>>
>> That's what I wasn't clear about from the previous discussion.
>
>
> Not sure why, as I''m sure I gave provided this link back then too:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
>

That talks about farm fuel use and has a broken link to a USDA study but
it is not clear whether it has included fertiliser which consumes about
double the fuel energy used in farming and is not that environmentally
friendly a process. You could do without it but then the crop yields
will drop significantly.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> James Annan wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> That's what I wasn't clear about from the previous discussion.
> >
> >
> > Not sure why, as I''m sure I gave provided this link back then too:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
> >
>
> That talks about farm fuel use and has a broken link to a USDA study

Oh, that's handy for you, since it provides a convenient excuse for you
to continue your "la-la-la I'm not listening" approach. "I wasn't clear
about"..."it is not clear whether"..."earlier discussion seemed to
indicate"...

I suppose it is a useful reminder of your determined ignorance, but it
has little bearing on the question itself.

James
 
James Annan wrote:
>
> Oh, that's handy for you, since it provides a convenient excuse for you
> to continue your "la-la-la I'm not listening" approach. "I wasn't clear
> about"..."it is not clear whether"..."earlier discussion seemed to
> indicate"...
>
> I suppose it is a useful reminder of your determined ignorance, but it
> has little bearing on the question itself.
>

So, when you've finished with the insults, what's the answer to the
question I posed?

I know you have already made your mind up on what the answer is but it's
not as clear cut as you want to present. Your Wiki reference claims
yields of 12-16x on farm fuel whatever that comprises. But take for
example the DfT review which cites two reports on energy balance from
Imperial College and Sheffield Hallam.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_024054.hcsp
"An unpublished report by Imperial College for DTI (Technology Status
Review and Carbon Abatement Potential of Renewable Transport Fuels (RTF)
in the UK. Draft report to DTI Renewable Energy Programme. Imperial
College, 2003.) has suggested that some pathways to biodiesel and
bioethanol have a negative or small positive energy ratio, as shown in
Table 7.1. An energy ratio of less than 1.0 suggests that more energy is
put into the process than is present in the biofuel product.

Table 7.1: Carbon balances for biofuel production
Process: Energy ratio
Biodiesel from oil seeds: 0.7 - 4.4
Biodiesel from FT processing of wood: 18.1 - 44.3
Bioethanol from grain: 0.9 - 2.6
Bioethanol from straw: 0.8 - 2.4
Bioethanol from sugar beet: 0.7 - 1.8

The ICCEPT report concludes that biodiesel and bioethanol routes are
generally energy intensive and significantly favourable energy balances
are only achieved when renewable fuels, mainly residues from the biomass
resource used, are used to produce energy for the process, and when
energy is allocated to co-products.

Another recent report for DTI by Sheffield Hallam University has
examined carbon and energy balances for a range of alternative UK
biofuel production routes. Their results for the process routes
addressed in our report are summarised in Table 7.2.

Table 7.2: Carbon balances for biofuel production (Sheffield Hallam 2003)

Process: Energy ratio
Biodiesel from oil seeds: 2.3
Bioethanol from acid hydrolysis of straw: 5.6
Bioethanol from wheat: 2.2
Bioethanol from sugar beet: 2.0

The two sets of carbon balances in Tables 7.1 and 7.2 are quite
different, reflecting differences in methodology and assumptions for the
two studies."

Before you start rubbishing it as biased because its by the DTI/DfT,
another report for the British Association for Bio Fuels and Oils by
Levington comes up with a figure of 1.78 for biodiesel and 1.11 for
bioethanol from rape seed before the energy from burning the straw was
included and also comments on the environmental impact of fertilisers
and other intensive farming methods needed to produce the yield.
http://www.biodiesel.co.uk/levington.htm

But feel free to continue hurling insults at those who ask questions
about your faiths.


--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
James Annan wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>>
>>> At the risk of getting into a circular argument, if the refining
>>> process and transport is itself powered by the veggie oil, surely
>>> that objection falls. In the end, isn't the major problem the
>>> unlocking of locked (fossil) carbon? As long as the process is
>>> carbon-neutral overall it must surely be better than dead dinosaur
>>> power.
>>
>>
>> That's what I wasn't clear about from the previous discussion.
>
> Not sure why, as I''m sure I gave provided this link back then too:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
>

Especially, also, given that I clearly said that the 82% energy yield was
over all energy inputs, clearly, more than once. And provided a source for
it.

<sigh>


--
Ambrose
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> James Annan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's what I wasn't clear about from the previous discussion.
>>
>>
>> Not sure why, as I''m sure I gave provided this link back then too:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
>>
>
> That talks about farm fuel use and has a broken link to a USDA study

That'll be the USDA study that I provided a direct link to, will it?
--
Ambrose
 
Tony Raven came up with the following;:
> Paul - *** wrote:
>>
>> It doesn't, though the main thrust of using veggie oil is that it's a
>> wholly renewable fuel source.
>>
>
> Depends how much oil was used in the growing, refining and transporting
> of the product. Earlier postings here would suggest rather a lot.

As a lot of the veggie oil we use is a product that is normally 'thrown
away' by the usual consumers of it after they've used it for cooking food
in, I'd say it's a positive benefit to everyone that we can find a way to
use it instead of simply chucking it 'down the drain'.

Just 'cos it's veggie oil that we use in our diesel doesn't mean it was
grown and made/refined purely for that purpose. Indeed, in our case and
many people we know, it certainly wasn't. We're extending it's usefulness,
thus making even more sense to grow the crops that produce it in the first
place.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
ebay stuff 5234286719 7996850544
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>
>>
>> That talks about farm fuel use and has a broken link to a USDA study
>
>
> That'll be the USDA study that I provided a direct link to, will it?

Probably. Interesting as it sidesteps much of the fertiliser question
because it looks exclusively at soybeans which, as with all legumes,
don't need nitrogen fertiliser as they fix their own nitrogen from the
atmosphere.
--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Paul - *** wrote:
>
> As a lot of the veggie oil we use is a product that is normally 'thrown
> away' by the usual consumers of it after they've used it for cooking
> food in, I'd say it's a positive benefit to everyone that we can find a
> way to use it instead of simply chucking it 'down the drain'.
>

According to James' favourite Wiki article it is used to produce
products such as soap. Even if not, US restaurant use of vegetable oil
amounts to a little over 1% of their transportation and home heating oil
consumption

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That talks about farm fuel use and has a broken link to a USDA study
>>
>>
>> That'll be the USDA study that I provided a direct link to, will it?
>
> Probably. Interesting as it sidesteps much of the fertiliser question
> because it looks exclusively at soybeans which, as with all legumes,
> don't need nitrogen fertiliser as they fix their own nitrogen from the
> atmosphere.

Fair point.

http://www.biodiesel.co.uk/levington_tables.htm gives 7190 MJ/ha for the
energy input of fertilisers to the oilseed rape crop.

The net yield given for oil alone is 25MJ/ha (ca. 60%) or 84MJ/ha if the
straw is used for energy (ca. 85%)

So the figures are different, sorry. If only I had the time to read the
whole of my sources rather than having to do *some* work.
--
Ambrose
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>
> Fair point.
>
> http://www.biodiesel.co.uk/levington_tables.htm gives 7190 MJ/ha for the
> energy input of fertilisers to the oilseed rape crop.
>
> The net yield given for oil alone is 25MJ/ha (ca. 60%) or 84MJ/ha if the
> straw is used for energy (ca. 85%)
>
> So the figures are different, sorry. If only I had the time to read the
> whole of my sources rather than having to do *some* work.

Thank you for a reasonable and reasoned response. Those yield figures
seem to be reasonable and consistent with other sources. So there does
appear to be a net gain if you take care with the process design and
manage the environmental aspects of fertiliser and pesticide manufacture
and use with care. It would be easy to push it into net loss though.
Not quite the 1200 and 1600% yield that Wikipedia would have you believe
though.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Tony Raven came up with the following;:
> Paul - *** wrote:
>>
>> As a lot of the veggie oil we use is a product that is normally 'thrown
>> away' by the usual consumers of it after they've used it for cooking
>> food in, I'd say it's a positive benefit to everyone that we can find a
>> way to use it instead of simply chucking it 'down the drain'.
>>
>
> According to James' favourite Wiki article it is used to produce
> products such as soap. Even if not, US restaurant use of vegetable oil
> amounts to a little over 1% of their transportation and home heating oil
> consumption

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. :)

I'm talking about what I (we as a family) actually use, not what some study
says most people use. It's one of the reasons I have a Landrover, albeit a
Discovery, so that I can service and maintain it myself and do what _I_ want
to do with it, not what some service computer says I need doing to it. Mine
is one of the last versions produced before they went over to elecronic
engine management and fly-by-wire etc so it's easy to work on and easy to
'play' with regarding fuelling changes and emissions controls etc ... ;)

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
ebay stuff 5234286719 7996850544
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> James Annan wrote:
> >
> > Oh, that's handy for you, since it provides a convenient excuse for you
> > to continue your "la-la-la I'm not listening" approach. "I wasn't clear
> > about"..."it is not clear whether"..."earlier discussion seemed to
> > indicate"...
> >
> > I suppose it is a useful reminder of your determined ignorance, but it
> > has little bearing on the question itself.
> >
>
> So, when you've finished with the insults, what's the answer to the
> question I posed?

I didn't see a question, just the standard "it is not clear" of the
fraudulent sceptic. I'm not going to waste my time doing your homework
only to have you nit-pick endlessly.

"A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still."

So it's better to let you do a bit of googling for yourself, see what
you find, and if you are open-minded enough, you'll probably work it
out. As indeed you seem to have just about done. Congratulations.

James
 
James Annan wrote:
>
> I didn't see a question, just the standard "it is not clear" of the
> fraudulent sceptic. I'm not going to waste my time doing your homework
> only to have you nit-pick endlessly.
>
> "A man convinced against his will
> is of the same opinion still."
>

"The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to
the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth."


--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
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