OT is it road tax or license?

Rob Horton <yahoo@mr_horton.com> typed:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how
come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at
least think that the government sites would try to inform the public
as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Note the wording ... 'vehicle tax' not 'road tax'.

AIUI it's a hangover from when it was called road tax, when part of the
generated income payed towards road maintenance, but now there's no
contribution to road maintenance and it's 'real name' is Vehicle Exise
Duty (VED), so is still a tax.

I'd guess this could be argued back and forth between various viewpoints
until the cows come home, but tbh, does it really matter?

--
Paul - [censored]
ebay stuff 140089503663 140089502223

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't exist
and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come all
of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what they
are actually paying for?

It's really Vehicle Excise Duty. The roads are paid for out of your Council
Tax, so cyclists DO pay "road tax"!

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't exist
and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come all
of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what they
are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

The site refers to 'vehicle tax', not 'road tax', with the tax it refers to
being correctly known as 'vehicle excise duty'

There is no such thing as 'road tax'.

And in any event, roads are paid for out of general taxation. There is no
specific tax where the revenue for it is ring-fenced to pay for roads.
Anyone who is a taxpayer pays for the roads, whether or not they have a
motorised vehicle.

Rob Horton wrote on 28/02/2007 14:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case,
how come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would
at least think that the government sites would try to inform the
public as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

You just can't get the quality in trolls these days. You'd think he
would at least link to a government website that did actually call it a
road tax. Gun: 1 Troll's Foot: 0

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Rob Horton said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how
come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at
least think that the government sites would try to inform the public as
to what they are actually paying for?

It is formally a /duty/, Vehicle Excise Duty (VED). You pay it (where
applicable) to license most types of motor vehicle. The licence you get
(a paper disc) is required to use or keep the motor vehicle on public
roads and it must be displayed, as prescribed, on the vehicle.

Duties, such as fuel duty, tobacco duty, alcohol duty, are taxes - so
vehicle excise duty /is/ a tax.

It is a tax which only applies to motor vehicles which are used or kept
on public roads, so it is both a "road tax" and a "motor vehicle tax".

--
Matt B

Tony Raven said:

Rob Horton wrote on 28/02/2007 14:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case,
how come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would
at least think that the government sites would try to inform the
public as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

You just can't get the quality in trolls these days. You'd think he
would at least link to a government website that did actually call it a
road tax. Gun: 1 Troll's Foot: 0

Not every one is a troll. I was being given a hard time in the pub a few
weeks ago about being a cyclist and "road tax". I just wanted find an
accurate way of defending myself and the rest of us.

Tony Raven said:

Rob Horton wrote on 28/02/2007 14:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case,
how come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would
at least think that the government sites would try to inform the
public as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just can't get the quality in trolls these days. You'd think he would
at least link to a government website that did actually call it a road
tax. Gun: 1 Troll's Foot: 0

I think the OP question was why is it called a tax rather than a
licence, the site he links
to calls it a taxation not a licence fee, so the troll badge will not
win you a prize today
Tony.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk

Schweik said:

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't exist
and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come all
of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what they
are actually paying for?

It's really Vehicle Excise Duty. The roads are paid for out of your Council
Tax, so cyclists DO pay "road tax"!

No, they pay "council tax". They may /also/ pay "road tax" if they have
a motor vehicle.

The term "road tax" doesn't mean the tax proceeds are used to finance
the roads, it means that the tax has to be paid to /use/ the roads.
Think of the names of other taxes: income tax, inheritance tax, etc.
The first word is the "thing" that you pay it for - not the "thing" that
the proceeds are used for.

--
Matt B

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven said:

Rob Horton wrote on 28/02/2007 14:03 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case,
how come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would
at least think that the government sites would try to inform the
public as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

You just can't get the quality in trolls these days. You'd think he
would at least link to a government website that did actually call it a
road tax. Gun: 1 Troll's Foot: 0

Not every one is a troll. I was being given a hard time in the pub a few
weeks ago about being a cyclist and "road tax". I just wanted find an
accurate way of defending myself and the rest of us.

Don't defend me, I don't give a ****!!

wafflycat said:

There is no such thing as 'road tax'.

OED[1]
road tax. noun Brit. a periodic tax payable on motor vehicles using
public roads.

Quoted message said:

And in any event, roads are paid for out of general taxation.

Yes, a part of which is collected from road tax, and a MUCH bigger part
from fuel tax.

Quoted message said:

There is no specific tax where the revenue for it is ring-fenced to pay for roads.

I don't think the OP thought there was. It is a terminology question.

Quoted message said:

Anyone who is a taxpayer pays for the roads, whether or not they
have a motorised vehicle.

Yes, but irrelevant in the context of the question. Incidentally,
motorists, even if they pay no other type of tax at all, have to pay tax
to use the road - unlike any other type of road user.

[1] http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/roadtax?view=uk

--
Matt B

Rob Horton said the following on 28/02/2007 14:03:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how
come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at
least think that the government sites would try to inform the public as
to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Not much of an "eg". I can't see the phrase "road tax" on that page,
and I'm 99% sure you won't find it on any other government page. "Road
tax" is the widely used incorrect phrase for "Vehicle Excise Duty", and
I admit to using the term myself. VED is just that - a duty paid for
the privilege of owning a vehicle. The money goes into the big pot, and
isn't used for roads any more than tax on petrol and insurance is used
on roads.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"Matt B" <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Schweik said:

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't

exist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are actually paying for?

It's really Vehicle Excise Duty. The roads are paid for out of your

Council

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tax, so cyclists DO pay "road tax"!

Depends - (incidentally it USED to be called the Road Fund Licence - but
hasn't for many years as that implies that it goes soley to fund roads which
it doesn't).

Quoted message said:

No, they pay "council tax". They may /also/ pay "road tax" if they have
a motor vehicle.

The term "road tax" doesn't mean the tax proceeds are used to finance
the roads, it means that the tax has to be paid to /use/ the roads.

But it is called Vehicle Exise Duty now - so it means Vehicle Tax it is a
tax on vehicles not a tax on the road.

Council Tax is a Tax that is paid to the Council for all sorts of services
and whilst money also comes from national government to local government
some money is spent on maintaining roads by the local councils.

National Government only maintain some roads (motorways and trunk roads).

Quoted message said:

Think of the names of other taxes: income tax, inheritance tax, etc.
The first word is the "thing" that you pay it for - not the "thing" that
the proceeds are used for.

So Value Added Tax is to pay for the added value? :-)

Dave

Paul Boyd said:

Rob Horton said the following on 28/02/2007 14:03:

Quoted message said:

Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't
exist and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how
come all of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at
least think that the government sites would try to inform the public
as to what they are actually paying for?

EG.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Not much of an "eg". I can't see the phrase "road tax" on that page,
and I'm 99% sure you won't find it on any other government page. "Road
tax" is the widely used incorrect phrase for "Vehicle Excise Duty", and
I admit to using the term myself. VED is just that - a duty paid for
the privilege of owning a vehicle. The money goes into the big pot, and
isn't used for roads any more than tax on petrol and insurance is used
on roads.

Ok, I was in a bit of a hurry and only closely looked at the info that
google threw up quoting "road tax". However, have a look at the further
site links.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_4011167

Note the statement
"Gordon Brown today announced a freeze on taxes including corporation
tax, stamp duty, airport tax and road tax."

and page 33 of this document. (search for road tax)
http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_4013286.pdf

Dave said:

"Matt B" <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Schweik said:

"Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't

exist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
> that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> are actually paying for?

It's really Vehicle Excise Duty. The roads are paid for out of your

Council

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tax, so cyclists DO pay "road tax"!

Depends - (incidentally it USED to be called the Road Fund Licence - but
hasn't for many years as that implies that it goes soley to fund roads which
it doesn't).

Quoted message said:

No, they pay "council tax". They may /also/ pay "road tax" if they have
a motor vehicle.

The term "road tax" doesn't mean the tax proceeds are used to finance
the roads, it means that the tax has to be paid to /use/ the roads.

But it is called Vehicle Exise Duty now - so it means Vehicle Tax it is a
tax on vehicles not a tax on the road.

To be pedantic, it's a tax on vehicles that *use* the road. There's no
requirement for VED to be paid on vehicles that don't.

Quoted message said:

Council Tax is a Tax that is paid to the Council for all sorts of services
and whilst money also comes from national government to local government
some money is spent on maintaining roads by the local councils.

National Government only maintain some roads (motorways and trunk roads).

Quoted message said:

Think of the names of other taxes: income tax, inheritance tax, etc.
The first word is the "thing" that you pay it for - not the "thing" that
the proceeds are used for.

So Value Added Tax is to pay for the added value? :-)

Correct... It's paid on the difference between the input value of an
item and it's output value after it's been "worked on" (for want of a
better expression) or "marked up". :-)

Rob Horton yahoo@mr_horton.com said:

Paul Boyd said:

Rob Horton said the following on 28/02/2007 14:03:

Quoted message said:

how come all of the government web sites call it road tax?

All? ALL?!?!? Really?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EG.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524

Not much of an "eg". I can't see the phrase "road tax" on that page,

Ok, I was in a bit of a hurry and only closely looked at the info that
google threw up quoting "road tax". However, have a look at the further
site links.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_4011167
http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_4013286.pdf

A quick Google of the direct.gov.uk site finds 135 (ONE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE)
instances of "vehicle excise duty", 0 for "road license", and only 7 of "road
tax", 4 of which don't even show the words when the page is displayed, and 1
where it duplicates the "vehicle tax" entry in the site index. So, 2 pages
where the term is used colloquially. The 2 you mentioned, oddly enough.

Searching for exceptions and then declaring them to be the norm is pretty
disingenuous, in my books.

Verdict: Troll.

Rob Horton said:

Not every one is a troll. I was being given a hard time in the pub a few
weeks ago about being a cyclist and "road tax". I just wanted find an
accurate way of defending myself and the rest of us.

If someone is giving you a hard time about being a cyclist, give them a
hard time back about being a motorist. e.g.
Squandering the natural resources of the planet, and heating it up.
You pay a disproportionate amount via taxation to the upkeep of roads
compared to how much ware and tear you cause.
You reduce the amount of cars on the roads making their journeys quicker

etc.

Martin.

Marc Brett said:

Rob Horton yahoo@mr_horton.com said:

Paul Boyd said:

Rob Horton said the following on 28/02/2007 14:03:
> how come all of the government web sites call it road tax?

All? ALL?!?!? Really?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> EG.
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524
Not much of an "eg". I can't see the phrase "road tax" on that page,

Ok, I was in a bit of a hurry and only closely looked at the info that
google threw up quoting "road tax". However, have a look at the further
site links.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_4011167
http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_4013286.pdf

A quick Google of the direct.gov.uk site finds 135 (ONE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE)
instances of "vehicle excise duty", 0 for "road license", and only 7 of "road
tax", 4 of which don't even show the words when the page is displayed, and 1
where it duplicates the "vehicle tax" entry in the site index. So, 2 pages
where the term is used colloquially. The 2 you mentioned, oddly enough.

Searching for exceptions and then declaring them to be the norm is pretty
disingenuous, in my books.

Verdict: Troll.

I admit it, I was wrong. Not all sites, just the first one at the top of
the list when I did a google search for "road tax". I should have done a
bit more research but I was in a hurry and was interested to find out
what the collective opinion would be.

Sorry.

Verdict: not a troll, just an everyday poster looking for answers.

It's not raining, so time for a ride when I get home I think.

Marc Brett said:

Rob Horton yahoo@mr_horton.com said:

Paul Boyd said:

Rob Horton said the following on 28/02/2007 14:03:
> how come all of the government web sites call it road tax?

All? ALL?!?!? Really?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> EG.
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524
Not much of an "eg". I can't see the phrase "road tax" on that page,

Ok, I was in a bit of a hurry and only closely looked at the info that
google threw up quoting "road tax". However, have a look at the further
site links.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_4011167
http://www.direct.gov.uk/dr_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_4013286.pdf

A quick Google of the direct.gov.uk site finds 135 (ONE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE)
instances of "vehicle excise duty", 0 for "road license", and only 7 of "road
tax", 4 of which don't even show the words when the page is displayed, and 1
where it duplicates the "vehicle tax" entry in the site index. So, 2 pages
where the term is used colloquially. The 2 you mentioned, oddly enough.

If you search the whole government website, rather than their sanitised
"direct" micro-site you get:
"road tax" - 48,200 hits
"vehicle excise duty" - 29,700 hits
"vehicle tax" - 3,880 hits

Pretty conclusive really.

Quoted message said:

Searching for exceptions and then declaring them to be the norm is pretty
disingenuous, in my books.

Verdict: Troll.

Given the overwhelming evidence perhaps you should reconsider. ;-)

--
Matt B

Jeff York said:

Dave said:

"Matt B" <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Schweik wrote:
> "Rob Horton" <yahoo@mr_horton.com> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Have often heard people on this forum stating that road tax doesn't

exist

Quoted message said:

>> and that we actually pay a road license. If that's the case, how come

all

Quoted message said:

>> of the government web sites call it road tax? You would at least think
>> that the government sites would try to inform the public as to what

they

Quoted message said:

>> are actually paying for?
>
> It's really Vehicle Excise Duty. The roads are paid for out of your

Council

Quoted message said:

> Tax, so cyclists DO pay "road tax"!

Depends - (incidentally it USED to be called the Road Fund Licence - but
hasn't for many years as that implies that it goes soley to fund roads which
it doesn't).

Quoted message said:

No, they pay "council tax". They may /also/ pay "road tax" if they have
a motor vehicle.

The term "road tax" doesn't mean the tax proceeds are used to finance
the roads, it means that the tax has to be paid to /use/ the roads.

But it is called Vehicle Exise Duty now - so it means Vehicle Tax it is a
tax on vehicles not a tax on the road.

To be pedantic, it's a tax on vehicles that *use* the road. There's no
requirement for VED to be paid on vehicles that don't.

Quoted message said:

Council Tax is a Tax that is paid to the Council for all sorts of services
and whilst money also comes from national government to local government
some money is spent on maintaining roads by the local councils.

National Government only maintain some roads (motorways and trunk roads).

Quoted message said:

Think of the names of other taxes: income tax, inheritance tax, etc.
The first word is the "thing" that you pay it for - not the "thing" that
the proceeds are used for.

So Value Added Tax is to pay for the added value? :-)

Correct... It's paid on the difference between the input value of an
item and it's output value after it's been "worked on" (for want of a
better expression) or "marked up". :-)

VAT was introduced to help pay for the war against France, they will drop it as
soon as we defeat Napoleon so it is claimed.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk