"Road Tax"

Hel said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen plenty more of
this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is* the situation with
so-called road tax?

Exactly as you summarise it. All roadbuilding apart from trunk roads
is funded by council budgets. Trunk roads and motorways are funded
from general taxation. Vehicle Excise Duty pays into general
taxation. £135 doesn't pay for a lot of road. A lot of people get self
righteous about people using the roads not in cars for whatever
reasons they have, but I'd guess road tax isn't one of them, it's
just a scapegoat.

Hope the new bike buying's going well,

Ambrose

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:17:19 +0100, "Hel" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

It really annoys me, I wouldn't mind paying a few quid in "road tax" just
to keep these idiots quiet.

Helen
(and yes I am fully insured 😉

With this government you are already paying 245 different taxes Helen,
so just smile at these uninformed high blood pressure morons
..................

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

There is no such thing as "Road Tax"
There's "Road Charging" as in London and there's "Vehicle Excise Duty"
(Which is probably what these people are refering to when they shout at you.
It astounds me that people can fork out so much money and not actually know
what it is they're buying.

--
Cheerful Pedalling
John Mallard

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Hope the new bike buying's going well,

Ambrose

Fairly well, thanks. The insurance is all in order, just a lot of waiting
to do (should be four weeks now) and then I will have a lovely shiny new
new orange Brompton. I can't wait!

Helen

--

(remove the last letter of the alphabet to e-mail me)

Hel said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Hope the new bike buying's going well,

Fairly well, thanks. The insurance is all in order, just a lot of waiting
to do (should be four weeks now) and then I will have a lovely shiny new
new orange Brompton. I can't wait!

Sounds great. Hope you have fun on it.

A

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:17:19 +0100, "Hel" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen plenty more of
this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is* the situation with
so-called road tax?

The situation is that having enjoyed many decades of massive subsidies
from general taxation, the cagers are whining like babies now they're
being asked to meet something close to the true costs of their chosen
mode of transport :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

in message <[email hidden]>, Hel

(') said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists
for being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and
insurance, THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen
plenty more of this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is* the
situation with so-called road tax?

I'm 48. There hasn't been a Road Tax in the UK in my lifetime. Possibly
people older than me can remember one.

Quoted message said:

I was also under the impression that vehicle excise duty went more
into large roads

Vehicle Excise Duty is an unhypothecated tax. It goes into the
treasury's general account, just like your 'National Insurance'
payments, and is not spent on anything in particular. The treasury does
pay (out of it's general fund) some proportion of the costs of
motorways and trunk roads in England an Wales. The treasury also pays a
block grant to the Scottish Executive, out of which the Executive pays
some proportion of the costs of motorways and trunk roads in Scotland.
the European Commission also pays a proportion of the costs of those
which are deemed 'Euro-routes' (in the UK, primarily roads to ferries
to Ireland). Of course, the treasury also provides the greater part of
local government spending through block grants.

However, no part of the fee paid to put a tax disk on a car goes
'directly' to pay for roads.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous

Quoted message said:

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous

Scary indeed. Glad IE3 has gone for good -- but the thought that NN4 might
still be creeping about is a little unnerving.

Hel said:

The way I understand it is that there is no such thing as road tax - it is
vehicle excise duty, whereby drivers pay to use their vehicle on the road.
They are not buying the road itself, although some seem to think they
are. As it is legal for cyclists to use the road, and there is no such tax
applicable to bicycles, surely this argument is, to put it politely, full
of cr*p?

True. A technical term is that VED is not hypothecated taxation -
hypothecated taxation being that which is dedicated to a particular
purpose. VED is no more paying for roads than VAT, income tax, or any
of the myriad of other taxes moist people pay. In fact, since the VED
is such a small part of most peoples tax burden, and since even a car
does so many more times the damage to road surfaces than a bike,
there's a very good case for arguing that cyclists pay
disproportionately more for the roads than do car drivers.

Quoted message said:

I was also under the impression that vehicle excise duty went more into
large roads, e.g. motorways and major A-roads, and local councils take care
of the smaller roads. I could be completely wrong, but would like to be
slightly more informed about it...

No. While you're right that trunk roads are funded from central
government, all other roads from local government, VED doesn't go any
more into any roads than does VAT etc.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Ambrose Nankivell said:

£135 doesn't pay for a lot of road.

Since I looked it up for a different thread yesterday, I know this one
- half an inch, or 12.7mm, of dual three lane motorway, at late 90's
prices.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:17:19 +0100 someone who may be "Hel"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen plenty more of
this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is* the situation with
so-called road tax?

The way I understand it is that there is no such thing as road tax

Correct. A brief history of the reality of the Road Fund and the
Road Fund Licence.

1909 - The Development and Road Improvements Fund Act said that
taxes on motor vehicles and fuels could be used to fund improvements
to existing roads. The taxes were paid into the 'Road Improvement
Fund', later called the 'Road Fund'.

1920 - Finance Act and the Roads Act stated that all motor vehicles
had to be taxed, goods vehicles being more heavily taxed than
passenger vehicles, and that contributions to the cost of improving
existing roads could be taken from the 'Road Fund'. For roads of
national importance, up to 50% of the improvement cost could be
granted from the Road Fund. For 'Class II' roads (like B roads
today), 25% of the cost could come from the Road Fund.

1927 - Finance Act stated that cars could be taxed as 'luxury items'
and hence not all the tax went into the Road Fund.

1933 - Road Traffic Act gave local authorities the power to claim
the cost of providing road signs from the Road Fund.

1936 - Trunk Roads Act transferred the authority for trunk roads
from local authorities to a central body, the Ministry of Transport.
Until that point, roads were the responsibility of local
authorities.

1936 - Finance Act wound up the 'Roads Fund'. From then onwards, the
Ministry of Transport would have to bid for money from the Treasury.

Note that even when all motoring taxes were ring-fenced they did not
cover the costs of improving the roads. One could say that motoring
was subsidised by the general taxpayer, though note that cycling
also benefitted from improvements to the roads. Building new roads
has always been paid for from general taxation in the era we are
discussing.

Quoted message said:

it is
vehicle excise duty, whereby drivers pay to use their vehicle on the road.

They pay to put their vehicle on the road. They do not pay to use it
on the road (though they do via other taxes).

Quoted message said:

I was also under the impression that vehicle excise duty went more into
large roads, e.g. motorways and major A-roads, and local councils take care
of the smaller roads.

VED goes into Gordon Brown's big piggy bank, along with most other
taxes (including those on the drug called alcohol). He then spends
it as he sees fit. Some goes to central government road schemes,
some goes to councils and they spend some of this on roads. None of
the money goes on building or extending pubs, so motorists should be
careful they don't moan too much.

It suits the road lobby to pretend that there is still a Road Fund.
They can then perform incorrect calculations and "demonstrate" how
hard done by the poor old motorist is. However, there are two big
flaws with their argument. Firstly, taxation is not a form of
financial investment where one compares what one gets out with what
one puts in. If it was then the poor old drinkers are far more hard
done by.

Secondly, their calculations leave a lot of costs out. The money
local government spends on roads is an example. There is also an
implicit assumption in their calculations that the current and past
level of spending maintains roads in an adequate condition. This
assumption is false, which the road lobby know. They will not face
the inevitable conclusion though, which is that any proper
calculation would increase the expenditure to the levels necessary
to maintain the system.

Quoted message said:

It really annoys me, I wouldn't mind paying a few quid in "road tax" just
to keep these idiots quiet.

It wouldn't. They simply use this "reason" because they can. Remove
it and they would use another "reason" to moan.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Simonb <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Scary indeed. Glad IE3 has gone for good -- but the thought that NN4 might
: still be creeping about is a little unnerving.

Taking to a friend of mine at lunch today. He kept a copy of NS4 around
just to use with NatWest bank which until very recently only supported
IE or NS4 (only and no later versions).

It now works with Mozilla so all is fine.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Ian Smith said:

VED is no more paying for roads than VAT, income tax, or any
of the myriad of other taxes moist people pay.

Quite why the damp should be singled out for special attention, I couldn't
tell you.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Hel

(') said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists
for being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and
insurance, THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen
plenty more of this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is*
the
situation with so-called road tax?

I'm 48. There hasn't been a Road Tax in the UK in my lifetime.
Possibly
people older than me can remember one.

Quoted message said:

I was also under the impression that vehicle excise duty went more
into large roads

Vehicle Excise Duty is an unhypothecated tax. It goes into the
treasury's general account, just like your 'National Insurance'
payments, and is not spent on anything in particular. The treasury
does
pay (out of it's general fund) some proportion of the costs of
motorways and trunk roads in England an Wales. The treasury also pays
a
block grant to the Scottish Executive, out of which the Executive pays
some proportion of the costs of motorways and trunk roads in Scotland.
the European Commission also pays a proportion of the costs of those
which are deemed 'Euro-routes' (in the UK, primarily roads to ferries
to Ireland). Of course, the treasury also provides the greater part of
local government spending through block grants.

However, no part of the fee paid to put a tax disk on a car goes
'directly' to pay for roads.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; IE 3 is dead, but Netscape 4 still shambles about the earth,
;; wreaking a horrific vengeance upon the living
;; anonymous

The Scottish Executive pays all the costs of motorways and trunk roads
in Scotland and, through AEG a large proportion of local roads costs,
managed by councils. We don't bother collecting Euro money because the
Treasury knocks it off the Scottish Budget - additionality rule.

Hel <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
: being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
: THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen plenty more of

While your average whining scum will be too innumerate to work it out,
it's instructive to work out what bikes *should* pay.

Road damage done by a vehicle rises as the fourth power of the axle
load (some say the fifth power)

http://www-mech.eng.cam.ac.uk/trg/publications/abstracts/veh_road10.html
(a quick google gives this, but this is a well known fact in the
field)

So, keeping the maths simple:

2 tonne SUV, 1 tonne axle load. Say they pay £100 VED/yr.
40 tonne truck, 6 axles, 6.6ish tonne axle load. 6.6^4=1897. £189,700/yr

You'd need small fractions of a penny to work out what bikes should
pay annually.

Which (to go wildly off-topic) is why the (private) B'ham toll
motorway is priced in such a way as to make trucks use the old
(public) road......

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

"Simonb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ian Smith said:

VED is no more paying for roads than VAT, income tax, or any
of the myriad of other taxes moist people pay.

Quite why the damp should be singled out for special attention, I couldn't
tell you.

someone has to pay for the Meek (and the cheesemakers)

"Hel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉, and seen plenty more of
this sort of [censored] in the media - just what *is* the situation with
so-called road tax?

........t> Helen

Quoted message said:

(and yes I am fully insured 😉

Public roads are for the use of the public and includes everybody.

This includes motorists, disabled people in 8mph electric wheelchairs,
cyclists, horse riders, boy scouts marching, old men pushing handcarts etc
etc etc.

Some powered vehicles are taxed, as are income, insurance policies,
cigarettes, alcohol, stamp duty, VAT, death duty etc. etc etc. and all goes
into a common pot.

Many things are still not taxed and never will be as the cost of collecting
exceeds the money received. (Remember dog licences?)

Anyway, the vast majority of cyclists are car owners and thus are paying
tax.
I always point out to the 'road tax whiners' that I have paid the tax and my
car is at home so can I please have a rebate for each cycle journey that I
make?

Paul

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:52:34 GMT someone who may be "Paulmouk"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the vast majority of cyclists are car owners and thus are paying
tax.

Whether they are car owners or not they pay tax.

If being a cyclist meant one didn't pay tax then more might take it
up as a means of getting around:-)

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

"Hel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having been on the roads a few years and harassed by a few motorists for
being freeloading scum ("When you start paying road tax and insurance,
THEN you can yell at me for cutting you up!"😉,

Presumably these aren't the same motorists who block country lanes around
places of interest to avoid paying parking fees at the aforementioned places
of interest.
Quite likely they are the same motorists who park illegally to save walking
a few metres and then claim the parking tickets they occasionally receive
are yet another tax on the persecuted motorist.
They definately aren't the 10% (or whatever the figure is, I know it's quite
high) of motorists who drive without "road tax" and/or insurance are they?
;-)

Pete