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Road Cycling
Published
2 November 2004
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gym gravity
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  1. Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    http://www.fasterskier.com/training.php?id=671

    The Norwegian Women’s Team, coached by Svein Tore Samdal, has taken this
    new research to the test. The team early this year got support and
    funding for a so-called high intensity project. This project involved
    doing high-intensity training as described above in time-blocks
    throughout the year. In blocks of about 10-12 days the team would do
    extensive and frequent 4-minute interval sessions, as often as every day
    (and even twice a day). The intervals were done in different activities,
    rollerskiing, running, bicycling, or ski-bounding/moose-huffs, to make
    the training more interesting for the athletes. A team of coaches,
    doctors and physiologists checked the athletes’ heart rates, lactate and
    other blood values during these tough training periods. The athletes
    were able to recover and rest in-between the sessions due to being in a
    training-camp situation.

    In late August it was reported that the average VO2max improvement (4
    ml/kg/min or about 6% increase) had exceeded improvements that in
    earlier years had taken the whole fall to reach. It is also observed
    that the athletes are able to run/ski further over a 4-minute interval,
    or being able to run/ski as fast as earlier, but with a much lower heart
    rate.

    In between these 10 – 12 days long time-blocks, the athletes’ training
    would be much easier and “normal”. However, due to additional research
    advice, the team continues to include 2-interval sessions per week to
    maintain their higher max VO2.

  2. "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    This type of training for xc country skiing really stresses the
    cardiovascular system but not so much the muscular and central nervous
    system, so recovery would tend to be better than with similar intervals and
    duration while cycling.

    -WG

  3. Warren said:

    "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    This type of training for xc country skiing really stresses the
    cardiovascular system but not so much the muscular and central nervous
    system, so recovery would tend to be better than with similar intervals and
    duration while cycling.

    -WG


    so what are you saying, that it wouldn't work for cyclists? Why?

    Why doesn't this type of training stress the muscular system and CNS and
    why would it be different with cycling? I'd argue that XC skiing
    requires more skill than a pedal stroke does.

  4. "gym gravity" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    No word on the length of the "in between" periods. If fitness increases
    during rest, I'd expect to see specifics on how long the in between periods
    are.

    Thanks for that link though.

    JF

  5. "gym gravity" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    No word on the length of the "in between" periods. If fitness increases
    during rest, I'd expect to see specifics on how long the in between periods
    are.

    Thanks for that link though.

    JF

  6. "gym gravity" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    No word on the length of the "in between" periods. If fitness increases
    during rest, I'd expect to see specifics on how long the in between periods
    are.

    Thanks for that link though.

    JF

  7. "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Warren said:

    "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    This type of training for xc country skiing really stresses the
    cardiovascular system but not so much the muscular and central nervous
    system, so recovery would tend to be better than with similar intervals


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    duration while cycling.

    -WG


    so what are you saying, that it wouldn't work for cyclists? Why?

    I think it would be harder for cyclists to recover enough from day to day
    because in XC skiing you are often limited by how much oxygen you can
    process and dealing with higher total amounts of lactate. Keep in mind
    you're using many more muscle groups while skiing.

    While skiing you have to slow down, or rest to catch your breath as it
    were, before continuing, and this often happens before your muscles are even
    close to exhausted. Since this training is limited mostly by oxygen
    requirements your muscles and CNS won't be stressed as much as if you were
    doing VO2max training on a bike day after day. In my own experience with xc
    ski training and racing I would often go as hard as possible one day and be
    nearly completely recovered by the next day. When I go that hard on the bike
    it takes at least one more day than that to recover.

    In my own training this year leading up to track Nat's and track Worlds I
    did VO2max-type training during 4 or 5 sessions per week, but the key is
    that I did most of it at high rpm's to minimize, or reduce the stress on my
    muscles so that I could do this training more frequently.

    Quoted message said:

    Why doesn't this type of training stress the muscular system and CNS

    It does, just not as much as in cycling, assuming you're not doing a large
    proportion of the xc training while going uphill. I think the lower
    frequency of repetitions (speed of the movements) is a reason why XC ski
    training would not stress the CNS as much as doing something like sprints or
    other very high intensity on the bike. The CNS thing is small compared to
    the muscular stress.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd argue that XC skiing
    requires more skill than a pedal stroke does.

    Okay, but I don't see what "skill" has to do with recovery from training.

    Maybe JT has some ideas about this since he has also done lots of xc skiing.

    -WG

  8. Warren said:

    "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Warren said:

    "gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    >almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    >'merkin crit masters.

    This type of training for xc country skiing really stresses the
    cardiovascular system but not so much the muscular and central nervous
    system, so recovery would tend to be better than with similar intervals

    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    duration while cycling.

    -WG

    so what are you saying, that it wouldn't work for cyclists? Why?

    I think it would be harder for cyclists to recover enough from day to day
    because in XC skiing you are often limited by how much oxygen you can
    process and dealing with higher total amounts of lactate. Keep in mind
    you're using many more muscle groups while skiing.

    While skiing you have to slow down, or rest to catch your breath as it
    were, before continuing, and this often happens before your muscles are even
    close to exhausted. Since this training is limited mostly by oxygen
    requirements your muscles and CNS won't be stressed as much as if you were
    doing VO2max training on a bike day after day. In my own experience with xc
    ski training and racing I would often go as hard as possible one day and be
    nearly completely recovered by the next day. When I go that hard on the bike
    it takes at least one more day than that to recover.

    In my own training this year leading up to track Nat's and track Worlds I
    did VO2max-type training during 4 or 5 sessions per week, but the key is
    that I did most of it at high rpm's to minimize, or reduce the stress on my
    muscles so that I could do this training more frequently.

    Quoted message said:

    Why doesn't this type of training stress the muscular system and CNS

    It does, just not as much as in cycling, assuming you're not doing a large
    proportion of the xc training while going uphill. I think the lower
    frequency of repetitions (speed of the movements) is a reason why XC ski
    training would not stress the CNS as much as doing something like sprints or
    other very high intensity on the bike. The CNS thing is small compared to
    the muscular stress.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd argue that XC skiing
    requires more skill than a pedal stroke does.

    Okay, but I don't see what "skill" has to do with recovery from training.

    Maybe JT has some ideas about this since he has also done lots of xc skiing.

    -WG


    Thanks, the thing I was saying about skill was in regard to CNS.

  9. gym gravity said:

    In blocks of about 10-12 days the team would do
    extensive and frequent 4-minute interval sessions, as often as every day
    (and even twice a day). The intervals were done in different activities,
    rollerskiing, running, bicycling, or ski-bounding/moose-huffs, to make
    the training more interesting for the athletes.

    Never mind the training questions. I'm interested in the moose-huffs.
    How exactly do you huff a moose? And is it better than aerosols or
    whippets?

    Ben
    Now I wanna sniff some glue

    P.S. Seems that they showed doing a lot of 4 minute intervals improves
    your performance over 4 minute periods. Specificity ...

  10. Benjamin Weiner said:

    Never mind the training questions. I'm interested in the moose-huffs.
    How exactly do you huff a moose? And is it better than aerosols or
    whippets?

    I was wondering where I was going to find a moose down here...

    Quoted message said:

    P.S. Seems that they showed doing a lot of 4 minute intervals improves
    your performance over 4 minute periods. Specificity ...

    Consider a road racing pack doing steady state at 40kph.
    Your break goes with a jump then a sustained effort at 50kph.

    40kph for 4 mins = 2.66km
    50kph for 4 mins = 3.33km

    Your break is now 0.67km ahead on the road. The pack at steady state
    will take 1 min to cover that extra distance. So you have a lead of 1
    minute and you can revert to steady state. The sustained effort after
    the initial jump is what gives the break a chance to succeed.

    (If, of course, there is no reaction from the bunch...but if it's the
    7th attack that day...who knows?)

    On a different tack, Eddy B recommended never doing more than 2km
    intervals for time trial preparation. For much the same reason as given
    in the article - recovery is easier.

  11. Jim Flom said:

    "gym gravity" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Cross country skiers are doing blocks of 10-12 days with VO2 intervals
    almost every day. 10-12 days!!! Seems like a great thing for fattie
    'merkin crit masters.

    No word on the length of the "in between" periods. If fitness increases
    during rest, I'd expect to see specifics on how long the in between periods
    are.

    Thanks for that link though.

    JF


    I was under the impression that they would do these blocks once every
    3-5 weeks or so, but I think I read that somewhere else. The in-between
    periods were more like a normal regime, mostly endurance, with only 2
    VO2 sessions a week, including a race.

    Personally, now, I've moved on to non-training. I just ride hard or
    long or both on my way to and from work every day. By Saturday all I
    want to do is eat.

  12. gym gravity said:

    By Saturday all I want to do is eat.

    And drink: http://beeradvocate.com/beer/rate_results/94/273/

  13. gym gravity said:
    gym gravity said:

    By Saturday all I want to do is eat.

    And drink: http://beeradvocate.com/beer/rate_results/94/273/

    http://www.internetwines.com/mb311504.html

    Public service, for the Brits reading:

    http://www.bibacity.co.uk/shop/catalog/Bookers_Bourbon-p-16354.html

    It will even pre-filter political discussions on rbr. By the second
    shot, you can't read anything, so you may as well load Kozmic Blues on
    the CD player and give it up.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  14. This sounds a lot like the training the Kenyan runners do in their
    running camps. I think it was documented in a book called "Training
    the Kenyan Way". They go to these camps where they run 3 times a day;
    light run in the morning, intervals on the track at midday, and then a
    longish run in the evening that often deteriorates into a race back to
    camp by the end. Mostly just sleep and eat between runs. They do this
    for a couple of weeks and then taper for a period of big events, where
    they do very little running besides racing. Seems to work for them,
    and it would be hard to argue that the stress on the muscles wasn't at
    least as great if not more so than in cycling.

  15. "Wayne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This sounds a lot like the training the Kenyan runners do in their
    running camps. I think it was documented in a book called "Training
    the Kenyan Way". They go to these camps where they run 3 times a day;
    light run in the morning, intervals on the track at midday, and then a
    longish run in the evening that often deteriorates into a race back to
    camp by the end. Mostly just sleep and eat between runs. They do this
    for a couple of weeks and then taper for a period of big events, where
    they do very little running besides racing. Seems to work for them,
    and it would be hard to argue that the stress on the muscles wasn't at
    least as great if not more so than in cycling.

    No mention of how intense those intervals are. Here's a clue, those Kenyans
    have small legs muscles compared to cyclists.

    -WG

  16. Stewart Fleming said:

    Benjamin Weiner wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    P.S. Seems that they showed doing a lot of 4 minute intervals improves
    your performance over 4 minute periods. Specificity ...

    Consider a road racing pack doing steady state at 40kph.
    Your break goes with a jump then a sustained effort at 50kph.

    40kph for 4 mins = 2.66km
    50kph for 4 mins = 3.33km

    Your break is now 0.67km ahead on the road. The pack at steady state
    will take 1 min to cover that extra distance. So you have a lead of 1
    minute and you can revert to steady state. The sustained effort after
    the initial jump is what gives the break a chance to succeed.

    (If, of course, there is no reaction from the bunch...but if it's the
    7th attack that day...who knows?)

    On a different tack, Eddy B recommended never doing more than 2km
    intervals for time trial preparation. For much the same reason as given
    in the article - recovery is easier.

    Well, yeah, I can believe that there are cases where going hard for a
    4 minute interval gives you a race advantage. But the same could
    probably be said for 1 minute intervals, or a high LT that lets you
    ride harder all race long. It gets back to the question of, what is
    the most effective regimen given the need to recover, and for most
    of us, limited time? Is it really easier to recover from 2km intervals
    at a 2km pace than 20 min intervals at a somewhat slower pace?

    When I said "Specificity" I was trolling for Andy Coggan, who usually
    has an opinion on these things - I could take a guess but don't want
    to presume.

    Ben
    Doing whiskey intervals with beer recovery this week

  17. Benjamin Weiner said:

    Doing whiskey intervals with beer recovery this week

    specificity.
    If you do whiskey intervals, you make the beer chase.

  18. Stewart Fleming said:

    Benjamin Weiner wrote:
    On a different tack, Eddy B recommended never doing more than 2km
    intervals for time trial preparation. For much the same reason as given
    in the article - recovery is easier.

    keep in mind, eddie b's version of recovery is to ride what carmichael would consider "tempo" because in a race, you don't get to recover at 12mph.

    laura "currently recovering with percoset chasers after getting 10 screws and a plate put in her broken wrist - longer discourse on the dangers of toe-lap and 'cross tires later" w

  19. Quoted message said:

    From: pedalchick [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    laura "currently recovering with percoset chasers after getting 10
    screws and a plate put in her broken wrist - longer discourse on the
    dangers of toe-lap and 'cross tires later" w

    --
    pedalchick

    Ouch! Best wishes, and it really wont kill you to wash them down with a beer.
    Bill C

  20. "Warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Wayne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This sounds a lot like the training the Kenyan runners do in their
    running camps. I think it was documented in a book called "Training
    the Kenyan Way". They go to these camps where they run 3 times a day;
    light run in the morning, intervals on the track at midday, and then a
    longish run in the evening that often deteriorates into a race back to
    camp by the end. Mostly just sleep and eat between runs. They do this
    for a couple of weeks and then taper for a period of big events, where
    they do very little running besides racing. Seems to work for them,
    and it would be hard to argue that the stress on the muscles wasn't at
    least as great if not more so than in cycling.

    No mention of how intense those intervals are. Here's a clue, those Kenyans
    have small legs muscles compared to cyclists.

    i wouldn't be quick to dismiss the study as irrelevent for cycling,
    but the question is whether this is better for improvement than some
    other type of training.

    also with respect to both running and XC skiing i think the possible
    volume of training is lower (i'm guessing, do XC skiers go out for 4
    hrs like cyclists often do ?), so atheltes can handle more intensity
    (?).

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