My first race ...

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage. Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

That sounds like fun not knowing the exact distance or route. It reminds me
of orienteering courses where you grab the map with the course on it (or
copy it for local meets) right before heading out.

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While I've done several courses without previewing the route, I've had
topos of the trail to have an idea of the big hills and effort
management. This is the first race I've done with no real clue, other
than expecting some rolling hills, but probably not as hilly as my home
course - but I didn't know for sure.

I'm the same way - I like to know the route and elevations for a challenging
course. For my escarpment race this summer it was essential to know the
route and elevations. In contrast, for the double-trouble 30k, I didn't know
the route, but none of those hills took longer than 10 mins to get up.

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This was at the Beach Lake Trails by Chugiak High School and the farm
league (that would be me) did the 5k blue intermediate ski loop, and the
lightening did the 10k red advanced ski loop, both of which overlapped
at beginning and end. They use a mass start - munchkins went right, 5
and 10k went straight - into a log-jam getting through tunnels under
road. Even *I* was slowed. The trails were wide ski trails, many with
gravel base, so they were mostly even footing (no horse prints or bike
ruts like ours).

That's nothing: I had to wait over 2 mins to literally take one step at
escarpment, then didn't have room to run my very conservative starting pace
for a further 10 minutes.

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Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.
Distance 5k, about 240ft elevation change.

That's about the elevation of one of my local runs, in one big hill and one
smaller one coming back. How did you measure elevation? On your polar
S625X? I've found that it only records an ascent if it's over 20 feet (in
feet mode obviously, don't know about what it does in meter mode). This
means that it will get the really big hills, and most medium size hills, but
often won't register rolling terrain at all.

To correct this (if you get bored or want something else to do when
running), you can count the tops of rises over 10 feet. Then multiply that
count by 10, and add that to the recorded ascent to get a more accurate true
ascent figure. I don't know if the software uses the ascent total from the
watch. (I don't have an ir port yet). The software probably gives a more
accurate ascent from the sampling data rather than relying on the
accumulated ascent from the watch.

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I started slow since I *am* slow and had never been on these trails
before nor seen a topo, so wasn't sure what the biggest hills might be
like. There were a couple people behind me, but I fell in behind a
couple women, one in a TNT shirt. I figured they'd be slow, possibly run
/ walking, but probably have an idea of pace, and I didn't feel strong
enough to pass them. I followed them for awhile - until they started
walking a DOWN hill (they were walking cuz of steepness, not a scheduled
walk). I launched past them since I'd run many downhills either steeper
or longer, and this was much better footing.

That must have felt great! and it wasn't even technical huh?
......

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These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind people
that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of tiring (form
deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked them off. I was
starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was obvious
they hadn't practiced downhill running.

That's how I felt in the escarpment race. I wouldn't pass anyone who was
running well, and that usually lasted until the trail got technical, either
on flats or downhill. As I chatted with the one guy I ran with for a couple
of miles I found out he had run double-trouble at almost exactly the same
pace as me, and I only passed him when I was sure I wanted to go a bit
faster.

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One person did re-pass me, but I ran her down again - she'd walk until
she heard me coming, then run. I think I passed her for good on one of
the hills. Another guy - about half my age - had been hanging off my
left shoulder and sprinted into the finish in about the last 200m. His
sprint was faster than my fastest running, and I just continued my own
race. There was a short uphill to the finish, and I knew I could handle
it at *my* effort, which wasn't a sprint 😉.

That reminds me of a time when I was orienteering way back in 1982: I had
just smoked the blue course (I actually beat the US champion that day), and
I sprinted past an older guy in the finish shute. Apparently many people
knew him, and they were cheering for him, so at the time I felt like I
crashed his finish a bit; but we were on different courses and I had no need
to appologize. This guy who passed you sounds like a bonehead IMO.

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I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

That's an excellent time for cross-country Dot, congratulations!

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Things I did right: I got the fueling right for an evening race (but
this race is on my side of Anchorage, so I didn't have to leave as early
as for May race); didn't get freaked out by other runners (usually there
aren't any around); had energy mgmt pretty close for my present training
/ conditioning; ran the uphill to the finish (fell short on this last
fall).

Ahem fueling? Unless you didn't eat all day you'd probably be fine right?

Quoted message said:

I think I did tire at the end, but finish hr was 176, the highest for
the race - and it built over the last few minutes as I pushed for
finish. (I've been using 180 as max).

Time to hone in on your max I think. Do you have other race numbers to
compare it to? or number from tempo workouts? It's fun to do a short race
sometimes, and now you've got me looking past my 50 miler to the 5k I plan
to run this Fall. Great report, thanks.

-Tony

Tony S. said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

..........

Quoted message said:

This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage. Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

That sounds like fun not knowing the exact distance or route. It reminds me
of orienteering courses where you grab the map with the course on it (or
copy it for local meets) right before heading out.

They used to have more obstacles and things in the races to up the
challenge, which would make it even more like orienteering, but they
feel they've gotten too big to do it safely. Interestingly, the
orienteering championships just ended last weekend, I think, but the
regular meets are on Wed night, starting in early May. Then these races
start Tues night right after Labor day. So the two keep people running 1
night / wk from early May to early Nov.

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They use a mass start - munchkins went right, 5
and 10k went straight - into a log-jam getting through tunnels under
road. Even *I* was slowed. The trails were wide ski trails, many with
gravel base, so they were mostly even footing (no horse prints or bike
ruts like ours).

That's nothing: I had to wait over 2 mins to literally take one step at
escarpment, then didn't have room to run my very conservative starting pace
for a further 10 minutes.

Keep in mind, I usually don't see anybody after about 3-5 min into a
race, as everyone else takes off in a cloud of dust 😉. So being in
sight of multiple people the whole race, except for a couple seconds at
right angle bends, was a totally new experience for me.

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Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.
Distance 5k, about 240ft elevation change.

That's about the elevation of one of my local runs, in one big hill and one
smaller one coming back. How did you measure elevation? On your polar
S625X? I've found that it only records an ascent if it's over 20 feet (in
feet mode obviously, don't know about what it does in meter mode). This
means that it will get the really big hills, and most medium size hills, but
often won't register rolling terrain at all.

Yes, by the 625, but I'll bet it picks up some noise also so that
various errors cancel out - or add 😉. I just noticed on one of my
regular routes, it said about 240m one time (very suspect for a 5k
route), 105m, and 100m, so I figure we get about 300 ft of elevation
change on that route. It will also register small hills on essentially
flat trails, which I interpret as noise. I usually round down to the
nearest 10-ft or sometimes 100-ft increment for my log (convert from m,
then round).

Actually, just glancing at the profile, it looks like a totally
different race than what I thought I ran - too few hills. I didn't have
the footpod on (thought there was going to be a swampy section), so it's
elev vs time - and the undulations in slope get lost since I speed up on
the gentler sections and slow down on the steeper - making it look like
one big hill instead of several smaller. Just for curiosity, I wished
I'd worn the footpod, so I'd have an elev vs distance profile and gotten
a better idea of the hills. For perspective, the biggest were about 100
ft - 1 down, 1 up. The others were more like steep pitches in a gentler
uphill - probably <30 sec running. Or at least I think that's what
happened. I *know* I ran more than 2 hills since that's when I passed
people 🙂.

Quoted message said:

To correct this (if you get bored or want something else to do when
running), you can count the tops of rises over 10 feet. Then multiply that
count by 10, and add that to the recorded ascent to get a more accurate true
ascent figure. I don't know if the software uses the ascent total from the
watch. (I don't have an ir port yet). The software probably gives a more
accurate ascent from the sampling data rather than relying on the
accumulated ascent from the watch.

It would depend on the algorithms in each, and yes, I wouldn't be
surprised to have elevation change and distance in the watch differ from
the software. No, I'm not going to count hills while I run 😉. My last
long run on rolling hills was about 11 mi, 1980ft (by S625), 3.5hr - and
none of the hills were larger than 100 ft (and only 2 or 3, if that).
Variously referred to as "roller coaster" or "meat grinder".

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Another guy - about half my age - had been hanging off my
left shoulder and sprinted into the finish in about the last 200m. His
sprint was faster than my fastest running, and I just continued my own
race. There was a short uphill to the finish, and I knew I could handle
it at *my* effort, which wasn't a sprint 😉.

That reminds me of a time when I was orienteering way back in 1982: I had
just smoked the blue course (I actually beat the US champion that day), and
I sprinted past an older guy in the finish shute. Apparently many people
knew him, and they were cheering for him,

That's one of the things where I'm uncomfortable in the Anchorage races.
Many cheer for all. But some may be cheering for local that they know,
which is fine, but then one feels like a heel for hanging tough - not
that it's been an issue that many times since I'm usually trying not to
keep the RD waiting. OTOH, it got me really annoyed in my first race
there since a lady was on my heels (could hear the mud splashing behind
step for step), wouldn't pass when I gave her opportunities, people were
cheering for her, then someone come back to pace her (in a 4-mi race).
I lit my afterburners. It was the only time I can remember actually
racing in a race, and I did it on my own. I had pre-scouted that one so
I knew where the finish was and knew I was close and it was slightly
downhill. I went to look for her at the end to thank her for the push
since I wouldn't have gone that "fast" on my own, but she must've
crossed the finish line and disappeared while I had my back turned at
the fluid table. (Now Doug's probably gonna accuse me not only of being
a red-liner but acting like a road-racer.)

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so at the time I felt like I
crashed his finish a bit; but we were on different courses and I had no need
to appologize. This guy who passed you sounds like a bonehead IMO.

No, it was a legitimate pass and he finished about 16 sec in front,
iirc. He had a bunch of supporters there yelling for him to sprint, then
he took off. I practice even effort running, not sprinting at finish 😉.
7:30 min/km works out to about 1:30 for 200m, so he had lots of time to
pass, although we were in the tunnels at same time - he almost out, and
me just entering. I thought I passed him earlier when he was walking,
but maybe this was someone different. When they finally posted the
times, I think they may have gotten me backwards with person behind me,
since there's no way my watch was off that much (about 20 sec) and the
spacing among runners doesn't match either. They use a timer and cards,
but no bibs, and I think I know what may have happened. Not a big deal
since I'm not that concerned with times. I was just looking for a
training run and seeing what these races were like as well as a
different trail system.

There was one later though where a lady was running, but barely moving
(toast appearance), up the "hill" at the end, and some other lady came
charging from behind and passed just about right on the finish line. Of
course, there's no way of knowing whether one was 5k and the other 10k
since there were no identifiers.

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I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

That's an excellent time for cross-country Dot, congratulations!

Thanks, but this was a 5k, not the 10k 😉. I did finish before the 1st
10k runner though 🙂. The first woman (one of the speedy 13?-yo) was a
little over 20 min. But there were people over 40 min in the 5k. The top
guys will go sub 20 (some sub 18 in some of these xc races) on 5k and
sub 40 on 10k. I did come in ahead of one of the older guys (70?) that
finished before me in my first trail race 3 yrs ago, but at least one
other 70+ yr old was about 6 min ahead. Sooo lots of room for improvement.

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Things I did right: I got the fueling right for an evening race (but
this race is on my side of Anchorage, so I didn't have to leave as early
as for May race); didn't get freaked out by other runners (usually there
aren't any around); had energy mgmt pretty close for my present training
/ conditioning; ran the uphill to the finish (fell short on this last
fall).

Ahem fueling? Unless you didn't eat all day you'd probably be fine right?

I run poorly if my stomach is growling 😉. With these Anchorage races, I
usually have to leave my house before I would've had a normal pre-run
snack, so I need to adjust. Also in the 4.4k I ran last year, I kinda
ran out of gas at the end - slushy route so it was over 40 min. My May
race that started at 6:30pm, I really felt like I lacked energy from not
getting the last eating close enough to race time, although it was a
longer race. This race just felt better all around, and part was not
being hungry at the starting line. Heck, I didn't even need a 12-in sub
afterwards 😉.

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I think I did tire at the end, but finish hr was 176, the highest for
the race - and it built over the last few minutes as I pushed for
finish. (I've been using 180 as max).

Time to hone in on your max I think. Do you have other race numbers to
compare it to? or number from tempo workouts?

I suspect there's a measurement / observer / reproducibility error of at
least several bpm, even if you have a formal test for max hr, so I'm not
going to worry about whether it's 178 or 182 or whatever. I like round
numbers 😉. Most observed biological numbers tend to be "fuzzy" (have
some amount of variation with them). Training in the right zones or
intensity levels is more important than knowing true max hr, IMHO.

I just went back through my database and found my max hr in other races
this year (6-8mi) have had highs around 170. I get up in the 170s
occasionally during our cross-training class also when doing plyometrics
or whatever in a congo line - fear of being runover. Most of the higher
170s were 1 or 2 yr ago, particularly 2003, when I was rehabbing AT
(yea, I know that sounds strange), and I've never recorded a
non-spurious number above 179. 2003 is when I was first introduced to
the xt class and also when I was doing a lot of mt biking for a duathlon
- and I do *not* like walking a bike if I can avoid it since you usually
can't get restarted before top - which meant my hr shot places it
doesn't usually see while running and I was bent over handlebars gasping
for air (at the top, hopefully). (I may not be speed conscious, but I
get very stubborn about certain things, and dismounting, walking,
mounting bike is one of them.) In 2003, I was really trying to hang in
there with the class also, and avoided dropping out of loop unless I was
close to barf or seeing-stars stage, no matter how much my form had
deteriorated. (also hot building)

In the last couple years, though, I don't push the xt like I used to. I
decided my form deteriorates at that point, and I was better off to step
out of the loop for 1 lap (maybe 1 min or so), then jump back in with
better form. The instructor has also started incorporating recovery laps
- at just about the right moments. This has reduced recovery time also
so it has a positive, rather than negative, effect on running. Lack of
higher hr recently could be result of aging (about 4 yr since I did the
calcs) or change in training.

IOW, my training has switched from trying to keep up at all costs to
working at the level that seems appropriate for me for most benefits
without spending all week recovering and hence interfering with actual
running. (even some of the guys were still sore on Wed or Thurs from a
Sat workout) Also, since I do this in late Oct to early Jan (sometimes
into March), I'm not sure that high intensity is that appropriate during
strength and base building. Some of the things seem more appropriate
closer to a race. Most of the time, I just focus on base, including
hills, and stay at much lower hr.

Thanks for reading and asking some good questions. Good luck at VT50.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With all the talk on the ultra list about barefoot, minimalist, and
non-supportive shoes, I'm starting to think I may be hurting my
running
by wearing a support shoe. I may just go out and get a cushioned
trainer (NB 833) to see what happens. I've completely stopped wearing
my Brooks ASR trail shoes, instead opting for Asics 2100s for all
surfaces from road to trails. Keep in mind I don't ever run on
anything
too technical. Not like you do in AK. So the 2100 may turn into my
trail shoe and the NB 833 for roads (if they work out).

FWIW I have been using the Asics 2NNN series for both road and trails
since they brought the line out(less the 2090). I'm on my 4th pair of
2100's and will use them next week at the VT50.

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I could also use some self discipline. I'm always fighting the urge to
go faster. I know enough about running to know that some days are
simply not productive if I run too fast. But sometimes I can't help
it.
If I see a lot of other runners on my route or if the weather is nice,
then I find it difficult to hold back. My pace increases without even
thinking about it. Of course, then I pay for it when on the next day
I'm struggling to finish a scheduled hard workout.

It will interesting to see how disciplined you are at your 50k....drum
roll....

-DF

Quoted message said:

FWIW I have been using the Asics 2NNN series for both road and trails
since they brought the line out(less the 2090). I'm on my 4th pair of
2100's and will use them next week at the VT50.

I'm on my 3rd pair of 2100s. Only $69.99 at Holabirds Sports, where
everyone's a VIP. ;-) I mostly use them for long runs. I noticed that I
get pretty good wear out of the 2100s. I can usually feel it when my
shoes get near the 400 mile mark. With the 2100s I happened to notice
that I was over 400 before I felt it.

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If I see a lot of other runners on my route or if the weather is nice,
then I find it difficult to hold back. My pace increases without even
thinking about it. Of course, then I pay for it when on the next day
I'm struggling to finish a scheduled hard workout.

It will interesting to see how disciplined you are at your 50k....drum
roll....

There are a whopping 12 runners signed up fo the 50K so far (77 finishers
last year). It doesn't sound like your adrenaline pumping Boston-type
atmosphere. I'm usually OK with holding back in a race, but this will
certainly be a different type of race in all aspects.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

I'm on my 3rd pair of 2100s. Only $69.99 at Holabirds Sports, where
everyone's a VIP. ;-) I mostly use them for long runs. I noticed that I
get pretty good wear out of the 2100s. I can usually feel it when my
shoes get near the 400 mile mark. With the 2100s I happened to notice
that I was over 400 before I felt it.

TAA-DAA! The Bill is proven correct again. Idiots...
TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Hi Dot!

Quoted message said:

Still slow, but steady.

Nothing wrong with that!

Quoted message said:

I think I did tire at the end, but finish hr was 176, the highest for the
race - and it built over the last few minutes as I pushed for finish.
(I've been using 180 as max).

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

Dot

Congrats! I really enjoyed reading about your race. I've never done one -
don't know if I ever will. But I felt like I was right there with you! Way
to go! JJ

JJ said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Hi Dot!

Quoted message said:

Still slow, but steady.

Nothing wrong with that!

Quoted message said:

I think I did tire at the end, but finish hr was 176, the highest for the
race - and it built over the last few minutes as I pushed for finish.
(I've been using 180 as max).

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

Dot

Congrats! I really enjoyed reading about your race. I've never done one -
don't know if I ever will. But I felt like I was right there with you! Way
to go! JJ

Thanks, JJ. Races are fun, but some people can run for years (decades?)
without ever doing a race, if they're just out for relaxation. And for
some of these shorter, fun races, it isn't at all unusual that people
may have little or no training. The vast majority of races in the US are
probably for people out having fun. However, some people actually "race"
them. Many people use them as training runs or social events. I'm trying
to use them to see trails or parts of state I've never seen before. But
if you taper before and recover after races (not referring to this one),
sometimes the races can reduce the amount of running you do - depending
on schedules, rest of life, etc.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson