My first race ...

and the cow moves from texas to california.
plods gone.
who cares?
move on.
time to ride for trash. allready got my winter ware. Mi. :>😉5000 mile
bound.
Bikers are the power people.
gps are for dumb people who can't find were there supost to be.
were you supost to be dot.?.
1st race. righttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.
were your high adventures.your dog sleds. your black flie runs...
you sound like your old. and retired.....like a lot of these farts here.
were you go they well be there waiting. so don't go
righttttttttttttttttttt.
360° r-1 5000÷365=......catch me if you can..............In my older
age I ten to like the cold better. thou laundry way easyer now with a
bucketand some power soap and a line to dry. in winter there got to be a
way? maybe just hang and let the wind blow it clean?......:>😉
why work, they never pay you......

Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote:
.....

Quoted message said:

Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

This is very interesting. Never heard of anything like that before.
I'm assuming that the usual range of distances isn't too wild,
like 5K to a 1/2 marathon.
Nevertheless, even a 5K/10K can be quite challenging.

Quoted message said:

Goals: have fun, do a "Tuesday night race", see how I handle energy
management (aka pacing) for unknown course.

Looks like you did well on all counts.

Quoted message said:

I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was
obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Your downhill training paid off. No need to feel guilty.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

🙁 That's one thing I look forward to in your reports. Pics.
Anyway, looks like you seemed to have enjoyed it. That's what matters.

jobs

Dot said:

in shorts 🙂

For those that remember my first race (winter tri at +1F almost 4 yr
ago) -- it finally warmed up 😉

It's a really liberating feeling. The temps sounded ideal.

Quoted message said:

This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage. Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

Goals: have fun, do a "Tuesday night race", see how I handle energy
management (aka pacing) for unknown course.

Racing as training. I think that's a good idea.

Quoted message said:

These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind people
that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of tiring (form
deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked them off. I was
starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was obvious
they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Sometimes the better runners don't realize how many battles for
position go on in the rest of the pack. No matter how slow or fast, a
big part of racing is competing.

Quoted message said:

Having run a 5k route on home trails a number of times, I had a pretty
good idea what degree of effort I could maintain there. So even though I
didn't know the topography or course here, I did have a good idea of
effort to stay within without toasting myself.

One person did re-pass me, but I ran her down again - she'd walk until
she heard me coming, then run. I think I passed her for good on one of
the hills. Another guy - about half my age - had been hanging off my
left shoulder and sprinted into the finish in about the last 200m. His
sprint was faster than my fastest running, and I just continued my own
race. There was a short uphill to the finish, and I knew I could handle
it at *my* effort, which wasn't a sprint 😉.

I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

Running your own race and managing to pass others. You ran a smart race
and you deserve some kudos. CONGRATULATIONS!

Quoted message said:

Things I did right: I got the fueling right for an evening race (but
this race is on my side of Anchorage, so I didn't have to leave as early
as for May race); didn't get freaked out by other runners (usually there
aren't any around); had energy mgmt pretty close for my present training
/ conditioning; ran the uphill to the finish (fell short on this last
fall).

Km 3 at 21:56 (1-3 avg 7:19; net down);
km 4: 7:27 (net up);
km 5: 7:29 (net down, but at least one good up in there, also extra
distance to finish line).

Still slow, but steady.

Still a worthy race. Ya done good kid.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

Dot

Nice report. Thanks.
Ed

Quoted message said:

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Congrats Dot!!

Dot said:

Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.
Distance 5k, about 240ft elevation change.

Brrr! Excellent temp for a race, but it's still mid-to-upper 90's
here yet! (At least the overnight hours are cooling down to the 60's
now).

Quoted message said:

These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind people
that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of tiring (form
deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked them off. I was
starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was obvious
they hadn't practiced downhill running.

I wouldn't feel guilty, downhilling well is a skill that needs to be
practiced. If you're good at it, by all means use it. I've read so many
times that most runners run too hard uphill and not hard enough down!

Quoted message said:

I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

Wohoo!

Quoted message said:

Things I did right: I got the fueling right for an evening race (but
this race is on my side of Anchorage, so I didn't have to leave as early
as for May race); didn't get freaked out by other runners (usually there
aren't any around); had energy mgmt pretty close for my present training
/ conditioning; ran the uphill to the finish (fell short on this last
fall).

Good planning! I've only done one evening race and totally flubbed the
food part (notice I haven't done another...)

Quoted message said:

Km 3 at 21:56 (1-3 avg 7:19; net down);
km 4: 7:27 (net up);
km 5: 7:29 (net down, but at least one good up in there, also extra
distance to finish line).

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

Awww, I miss the pics! I always love to see the scenery there, lots
different than the desert here. But thanks for the excellent report and
kudos for a job well done!

Teresa in AZ

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While I've done several courses without previewing the route, I've had
topos of the trail to have an idea of the big hills and effort
management.

Looking at topo maps is cheating. 😉

Quoted message said:

After a couple gradual uphills, I began to think that maybe I might be
able to run this whole thing. Ooops, somewhere around km 3 or so,
there was a steep pitch that I was going to walk - until I got there
and decided to run the first part, then walk near the top. Shucks, I
got almost to the top and decided I didn't really need a walk break -
just slowed a little bit more, pumped a little more with arms, and up
I went.

In a 5k why no try to run every hill? Use them as training runs even if
it means you sacrifice a little of the clock today and build for
tomorrow.

Quoted message said:

These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind
people that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of
tiring (form deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked
them off. I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs
since it was obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Do I denote redliner verbiage. 🙂 I know it's a good feeling to pick
off people in the later stages.

Only 8 more to go.

-Doug

Quoted message said:

Dot <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote:
....

Quoted message said:

Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

This is very interesting. Never heard of anything like that before.
I'm assuming that the usual range of distances isn't too wild,
like 5K to a 1/2 marathon.

Munchkins are 1-3km (untimed); Farm 3-7.5km; Lightening 4-10km.

With these distances, the last runners probably finish in a little over
an hour, maybe 1.5 hrs depending on the course. RD and helpers then get
to clean up then work out the times and standings (no bibs, give you a
card when you cross finish - order includes both races) and try to get
results worked up by 10pm. Races start at 6:30pm.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was
obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Your downhill training paid off. No need to feel guilty.

Thanks. And knees aren't sore today either 🙂.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

🙁 That's one thing I look forward to in your reports. Pics.
Anyway, looks like you seemed to have enjoyed it. That's what matters.

Many of these urban trails are similar but different - wide ski trails
winding up and down hills (usually moraines) - without the spectacular
views like the longer trail runs, but are pretty and unique in their own
way though. I *do* wish I had taken a camera to take some pictures
before hand though. We've had some blah weather for a while, and the sun
just came out in afternoon, leaves have been turning, and would've had
some neat pictures.

Actually, the whole race was sans gadgets (except watch/hrm) - no
fluids, no gps, no footpod (I do regret not using it since it was dry
and would've liked to have checked splits), no camera.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Ed Prochak said:

Dot said:

in shorts 🙂

For those that remember my first race (winter tri at +1F almost 4 yr
ago) -- it finally warmed up 😉

It's a really liberating feeling. The temps sounded ideal.

It was - once we got moving. It was very cool in the shade on the trail,
and I thought I had made a mistake by wearing shorts, but I warmed up.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the better runners don't realize how many battles for
position go on in the rest of the pack. No matter how slow or fast, a
big part of racing is competing.

yea, it was neat watching and cheering the other runners - both the last
of the 5k and almost all of the 10k, where there were some fun-looking
"battles".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

Running your own race and managing to pass others. You ran a smart race
and you deserve some kudos. CONGRATULATIONS!

Thanks, Ed.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Teresa Bippert-Plymate said:

Congrats Dot!!

Dot said:

Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.
Distance 5k, about 240ft elevation change.

Brrr! Excellent temp for a race, but it's still mid-to-upper 90's
here yet! (At least the overnight hours are cooling down to the 60's
now).

My sympathies 🙁. I guess that's why I don't live in that part of
Arizona 😉.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind
people that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of
tiring (form deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked
them off. I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs
since it was obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

I wouldn't feel guilty, downhilling well is a skill that needs to be
practiced. If you're good at it, by all means use it. I've read so many
times that most runners run too hard uphill and not hard enough down!

Thanks. I'm not good, but I do work at it and improving - out of self
defense as much as anything 😉. I think so many people think of
downhills as causing injury, that they don't realize they can be trained
for and strengthen the muscles. Or they were very new runners that just
hadn't gotten that far in their training yet. Actually, many of them
walked both up and down, so I don't think it was an issue of going too
hard up. I think many were scared to run down them (one sorta gasped
when I passed them at the start of the one downhill). I can remember
when I was that way, and still take a big gulp before I head down some
of ours - and will still walk some of them if things don't feel right
that day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

Wohoo!

Quoted message said:

Things I did right: I got the fueling right for an evening race (but
this race is on my side of Anchorage, so I didn't have to leave as
early as for May race); didn't get freaked out by other runners
(usually there aren't any around); had energy mgmt pretty close for my
present training / conditioning; ran the uphill to the finish (fell
short on this last fall).

Good planning! I've only done one evening race and totally flubbed the
food part (notice I haven't done another...)

This is partly why I did this one, but I cheated and ran one on the
north side of town - about 30 min drive without going near Anchorage
proper instead of 1-1.5 hr through Anchorage. That made a big difference
in when I could eat - then topped off with powerbar while waiting. But
that did confirm that at least some of my problem in May was fueling. I
was probably better rested for this race also.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, no pictures this time, but I had fun and can now say "yes" when
someone asks me if I've done a Tuesday night race 🙂.

Awww, I miss the pics! I always love to see the scenery there, lots
different than the desert here. But thanks for the excellent report and
kudos for a job well done!

Thanks. As I told jobs, the urban trails are pretty and unique in their
own way, but not the spectacular scenery of the hiking trails - and no
rocks and roots to take pics of. As it turned out the sun was out and
trees had started to turn, so I could've had some neat shots before the
race, but hadn't even considered bringing the camera at all because of
the days of rain.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

Congratulations on your race. I read every detail as if it were a 50 miler
:-).

Every one of these things is an adventure, with millions of things going on,
isn't it?

Oh, and you hung tough with your 176 at the end. My max is 180, and my last
two races didn't see a pulse higher than 172.

-- Dan

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While I've done several courses without previewing the route, I've had
topos of the trail to have an idea of the big hills and effort
management.

Looking at topo maps is cheating. 😉

Us slow beginners need all the help we can get. 🙂 Need to be sure I
have enough fuel to get to the end, but not leave too much in the tank -
or I'll go run the route a 2nd time like I did in May. Actually, I use
maps, topo or not, just to get an idea of distance - like big turn to
left is 2/3 through the course - just to get an idea when to switch from
conservative beginning to maybe picking it up at end.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After a couple gradual uphills, I began to think that maybe I might be
able to run this whole thing. Ooops, somewhere around km 3 or so,
there was a steep pitch that I was going to walk - until I got there
and decided to run the first part, then walk near the top. Shucks, I
got almost to the top and decided I didn't really need a walk break -
just slowed a little bit more, pumped a little more with arms, and up
I went.

In a 5k why no try to run every hill?

Lack of confidence. Primarily, I really didn't know what the trails were
like. I had read something like "toughest xc ski trails in state", but
also knew that our people sometimes go there to ski since theirs are
easier, and hs teams from Anchorage hate coming to our trails. On my
home trails, even if I don't know for sure which route something is
taking, I know the hills well enough to know that there's a likelihood
of big hill ahead - or not. And that does affect my pacing. On
unfamiliar trails, I have rounded blind corners to see hills that looked
like Everest (actually more like 100 ft hills).

Secondly, because I thought you had suggested not try running the whole
distance since I wasn't that far along, but you might have said that a
year or so ago and maybe you didn't mean it for 5k and apparently don't
mean it now for 5k. Sounds like maybe I should disregard that 😉. (or
maybe I misinterpreted earlier)

Quoted message said:

Use them as training runs even if
it means you sacrifice a little of the clock today and build for
tomorrow.

I probably would now. Prior to last night I didn't have the confidence
to run my race on hills around other people, since there's usually not
anybody around me at the tail of the pack. Without people, I've run
enough flavors of hills by myself that I do a pretty decent job of
energy management, and if I overdo it, I know how to recover. Hence, I
also know when I can push and get away with it and which hills will
toast me if I play games with it. I just wasn't sure if I'd get sucked
into someone else's race instead of running the ups and downs like I
have so many times by myself. For some reason in other races, even
without being around people, I'd space out some basics like posture or
arm pump or whatever. I distinctly remember consciously thinking about
those things a couple times, but that's the first I can remember doing
that in a race.

Last night was a big confidence booster for me, *but* I won't be
overconfident from it since I know the hills weren't real big, the fast
runners were in the 10k, and I was passing people probably because I had
trained on hills - both up and down - and they hadn't done either. These
races are fun runs for the family (including some dogs) to get people
out and active.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These scenarios repeated themselves a couple times - hang behind
people that seemed about my speed, then when they showed signs of
tiring (form deteriorated), or walked on uphill or downhill, I picked
them off. I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs
since it was obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Do I denote redliner verbiage. 🙂

Not me 🙂 Well, maybe the verbage sounded a little that way, but the
action definitely wasn't - I just kept catching people while trying to
maintain the effort I was pretty sure I could maintain. I didn't want to
pass someone unless I was sure I could cleanly pass and not have them on
my heels or re-pass. It just happened that when they started walking up
or down was a convenient place to pass if I wanted to keep running at my
desired effort, rather than theirs. What surprised me, though, since
"fast" is not a term used with my running - ever - that I passed so
quickly - both up and down. I was just feeling like I should've said
"excuse me" or "looking good" or something, but in the 1st couple cases,
I was past before I thought to say anything (wide enough trail that
didn't have to call for it). (definitely new experiences for me)

Quoted message said:

I know it's a good feeling to pick
off people in the later stages.

This actually started before the half way point - at the first downhill
(about 10-15 min into race). This is what had me nervous.

Quoted message said:

Only 8 more to go.

No, that's the only one I'm doing, at least this year. I really enjoyed
it and would do more if they were local, but the first one was last
week, and I'm too lazy to drive to Anchorage every week (not to mention
price of gas). Most of the others will be 1+ hr driving each way, partly
through Anchorage rush hour, and that's too much driving for me for a 45
min race, at least at this point. This one was pretty convenient - about
30 min 1 way, don't even get close to the city proper. I've got a
14k/1200 ft coming up, but if for any reason it gets cancelled, I'd
probably do the Tues night race after that (similar trails, but shorter,
I think). Then we have a local 5k on my home trails in early Oct, then
recovery.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Dan Stumpus said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote

Congratulations on your race. I read every detail as if it were a 50 miler
:-).

Thanks, Dan.

Quoted message said:

Every one of these things is an adventure, with millions of things going on,
isn't it?

Yea, this one had lots of new, unexpected experiences.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and you hung tough with your 176 at the end. My max is 180, and my last
two races didn't see a pulse higher than 172.

After last year's 2 races where I felt I could have finished stronger,
I've been working at getting a better feel for just how much I can
handle and finish strong - at the finish line, not before 😉

Next races should be back to normal - alone at tail of pack, trying not
to get lost 😉

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Dot - nice race and report.
It seems like you managed the pacing right and
had a good time.

Anthony.

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Secondly, because I thought you had suggested not try running the
whole distance since I wasn't that far along, but you might have said
that a year or so ago and maybe you didn't mean it for 5k and
apparently don't mean it now for 5k. Sounds like maybe I should
disregard that 😉. (or maybe I misinterpreted earlier)

You're right on both counts. A 5k with your base and background, even if
it's all uphill, is worth the effort to try to run every inch. I was
originally thinking you would run most of them but I see this is single
shot. This goes to goals in general. I know your aim is to do longer
races so I'm suggesting that you use these shorter runs/races as
training assuming you have a race down the line which is longer and
your race strategy would be to use the run walk technique for a "best"
time.

Quoted message said:

I probably would now.

Good.

Quoted message said:

Not me 🙂 Well, maybe the verbage sounded a little that way, but the
action definitely wasn't - I just kept catching people while trying to
maintain the effort I was pretty sure I could maintain.

Ain't it great to see progress!!! 🙂 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Only 8 more to go.

No, that's the only one I'm doing, at least this year. I really
enjoyed it and would do more if they were local, but the first one was
last week, and I'm too lazy to drive to Anchorage every week (not to
mention price of gas).

Damn, they would make great training runs. We have a local series that
does the same. They were originally designed to get the High School kids
in shape for the XC series but has grown to include the entire running
community. Everyone uses the race with different goals , except for a
few redliners, and clock time is not very important.

By the way, how much is gas a gallon where you live?

-Doug

Dot said:

This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage.

Urban trails? That would be a sidewalk in these parts. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

You've never been on this trail?

Quoted message said:

Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.

Sounds wonderful!

Quoted message said:

couple women, one in a TNT shirt. I figured they'd be slow, possibly run
/ walking, but probably have an idea of pace, and I didn't feel strong
enough to pass them. I followed them for awhile - until they started
walking a DOWN hill (they were walking cuz of steepness, not a scheduled
walk). I launched past them since I'd run many downhills either steeper
or longer, and this was much better footing.

They probably have a fear of falling due to lack of experience. You
said it was a wide trail, otherwise I'd have a fear of running into a
walker.

Quoted message said:

After a couple gradual uphills, I began to think that maybe I might be
able to run this whole thing. Ooops, somewhere around km 3 or so, there
was a steep pitch that I was going to walk - until I got there and
decided to run the first part, then walk near the top. Shucks, I got
almost to the top and decided I didn't really need a walk break - just
slowed a little bit more, pumped a little more with arms, and up I went.

Your experience is showing. If it were a longer race, you might have
had to pace yourself by walking some of the uphill bits.

Quoted message said:

I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was
obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Hmmm...maybe you should have entered the lightning division. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Another guy - about half my age - had been hanging off my
left shoulder and sprinted into the finish in about the last 200m.

Drafting off Dot. Probably a good strategy on his part.

Quoted message said:

I ended up running the whole way, passing a number of people, and
finishing in about 36:58 by my watch.

You beat your 40 minute goal. Congrats!

Quoted message said:

Sorry, no pictures this time

Probably not your race, but is this the start/finish?
http://tinyurl.com/7wwcj

Congrats again and thanks for the report. What's next?

--
Phil M.

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Secondly, because I thought you had suggested not try running the
whole distance since I wasn't that far along, but you might have said
that a year or so ago and maybe you didn't mean it for 5k and
apparently don't mean it now for 5k. Sounds like maybe I should
disregard that 😉. (or maybe I misinterpreted earlier)

You're right on both counts. A 5k with your base and background, even if
it's all uphill, is worth the effort to try to run every inch. I was
originally thinking you would run most of them but I see this is single
shot. This goes to goals in general. I know your aim is to do longer
races so I'm suggesting that you use these shorter runs/races as
training assuming you have a race down the line which is longer and
your race strategy would be to use the run walk technique for a "best"
time.

Right. My next one is 14k (1200ft, 2.5-3hr, possibly with snow), and in
order not to keep the RD waiting at the end, I feel I should try to
minimize my time, to the extent possible. This is one where there's a
shorter race, so the smarter of the inexperienced ones will be running
the short one. IOW, I'll be bringing up the rear. I've been studying the
topo to get an idea of obvious places to take a walk break 😉.

A question I had asked you backchannel was about "speed" work, and I'm
not sure if you had interpreted that as traditional speed work - track,
repeats, etc. as opposed to more-challenging-than-easy runs that I
intended. I keep getting a guilt complex everytime I push the LT zone -
usually while topping out on hills and keeping effort up. At the level
I've been doing it, it doesn't seem excessive. No, I don't do it on long
runs, but might on shorter runs, say 1-1.5 hr, and maybe alternate hills
(1 easy, 1 push the top). I don't think I do it enough to have any
physical benefit, but it really has a huge mental benefit for me (I know
where my crash point is and know what levels I can sustain), as this
race showed. And I may only do it every 2-3 wks when I feel rested and
ready for a little more challenge. These plus fartleks (well, these are
fartleks, sorta) were the kind of workouts I was thinking of. And maybe
working into running a hill repeatedly ("repeats" sounds too formal and
hard) with rests breaks so I can focus more on the "up". Right now, I
just keep running, so I'm learning how to run through the top of hills
without dying at the top, which I think has priority. Anyway, just
curious about your opinion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not me 🙂 Well, maybe the verbage sounded a little that way, but the
action definitely wasn't - I just kept catching people while trying to
maintain the effort I was pretty sure I could maintain.

Ain't it great to see progress!!! 🙂 🙂

yea, finally 🙂 You know, I was originally gonna respond that this is a
very different population of runners than my other races (and it is) so
it's not really that much progress, then I remembered that 3 yr ago,
that *was* me - able to run 4-5 miles, but new to trails and significant
hills and not having a good feeling for what I could push / recover.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Only 8 more to go.

No, that's the only one I'm doing, at least this year. I really
enjoyed it and would do more if they were local, but the first one was
last week, and I'm too lazy to drive to Anchorage every week (not to
mention price of gas).

Damn, they would make great training runs.

I agree. Another possibility is people carpooling from here to Anchorage
for the Tues night races. Some people here do run them, but frequently
if they work in Anchorage or had to be there for another reason. And if
I don't do this 14k next year (other longer races on agenda), then I
might not mind the drive to Anchorage for another of these races.

A couple other things (along the lines of running with others, race or
not) that I'm tossing around in my mind for next year is that the local
women's running team (really more of a club) has their coached workouts
in the summer - track on Tues, trail on Thurs, 1 hr each time, although
they might do some group long runs when they get closer to goal race in
late Aug. It costs $100 to join (unless they've increased price), but
they generally let you come for 2 workouts free. I went to 1 trail
(actually road because of snow) a couple years ago and was so-so. I know
some of the people from my cross-training class. While many of them are
road runners, many also trail run, and I think their goal race is the
16-mi Lost Lake in late Aug, at least it was a couple years ago. If I
were a red-liner, that would be a great thing for next year. But I'm
not, and I don't think I can handle that much structure (mentally for
sure, probably not physically either). I mean I get tired of the
cross-training class after 2-3 months, and that's only once per wk. I've
got a good handle on what works for me and how to build and backoff.
Having a few people for long runs in the backcountry would be nice for
safety issues, but I'm really hesitant to get into a strict training
regimen, since I think that would cause more problems for me than solutions.

Also, the Anchorage ultra runners have 2-4 hr runs (billed as "epic",
social) Thurs night (start at 6:30pm) - usually much more difficult than
many runners are interested in (rock scrambling, ice axes, etc.), but do
have some road runs and occasionally some easier trails (including ours)
for some of their easier runs. Anyway, when they've got one of their 2
hr runs on easy trails, esp. if it were out/back or loops with escape
routes, I'd like to try to run with (behind?) them. A 2-hr easy run for
them would probably be 3+ hr "easy" run for me, but I might be able to
pick up pace so as not to be too far behind. Obviously these are the
people that run RP50/100 and Su100/Little Su 50k, so a lot to be learned.

And there's our snowshoe group runs, which has the composition of many
of my races - a bunch of fast people, including Julie U., our leader,
and myself way behind.

Quoted message said:

By the way, how much is gas a gallon where you live?

About $2.68 to $2.79/gal and seems fairly stable, relatively speaking.
http://tinyurl.com/dh74t

I had just filled before Katrina, as it turned out, and haven't had to
fill since (400-mile range/tank). The trails I usually use (other than
the out-my-door one) are less than 10 mi from me. Main stores are about
1 mi away.

The real factor is me not liking driving, but will drive if I need to
get to variety of trails.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Anthony said:

Dot - nice race and report.
It seems like you managed the pacing right and
had a good time.

Thanks, Anthony. Yep, this was definitely a fun race.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Phil M. said:

Dot said:

This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage.

Urban trails? That would be a sidewalk in these parts. ;-)

The Anchorage ones come equipped with bears and moose 😉 Seriously,
most of the "urban" trails were originally designed as xc ski trails -
built and maintained by those groups. Which means wide and de-rooted,
de-rocked, etc. Most are surrounded by road system. This contrasts with
more "backcountry" (for lack of better terms) that go for awhile and may
never hit another road. Besides more bears and moose, these come
equippeed with rocks and roots trained to trip runners.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

You've never been on this trail?

Nope. I wasn't even sure where the trailhead was, and the best I could
find for a map was the adjacent mushing trails. Even if I ran this race
next year, the route might be different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.

Sounds wonderful!

Quoted message said:

couple women, one in a TNT shirt. I figured they'd be slow, possibly run
/ walking, but probably have an idea of pace, and I didn't feel strong
enough to pass them. I followed them for awhile - until they started
walking a DOWN hill (they were walking cuz of steepness, not a scheduled
walk). I launched past them since I'd run many downhills either steeper
or longer, and this was much better footing.

They probably have a fear of falling due to lack of experience. You
said it was a wide trail, otherwise I'd have a fear of running into a
walker.

Right, and it was well maintained so people did tend to stay to the
right unless passing. Ours tend to get a little rutty and the safest
line down shifts from side to side. Most of my passes were near the top.
Many people almost stopped at the top and looked, kinda like high dive
fright.

I can definitely understand their concern. I can remember my first
significant run on home trails several years ago - my back hurt cuz I
slammed heels on downhill since I didn't have the strength to land in
forefoot area on downs and those darn Grid Stabil heels were so high, I
couldn't help but hit heel first. A lot of my early hill running was on
snow, so I had 3 inches of fluffy stuff to land in if I blew it. It's
surprising how much that helped confidence when starting. While I'm
still a beginner, it was nice to see some progress compared with some
who may have been less trained (not that I'm trained, just comparatively).

Quoted message said:

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After a couple gradual uphills, I began to think that maybe I might be
able to run this whole thing. Ooops, somewhere around km 3 or so, there
was a steep pitch that I was going to walk - until I got there and
decided to run the first part, then walk near the top. Shucks, I got
almost to the top and decided I didn't really need a walk break - just
slowed a little bit more, pumped a little more with arms, and up I went.

Your experience is showing. If it were a longer race, you might have
had to pace yourself by walking some of the uphill bits.

If the truth be known, I had slightly toasted myself Sat on home trails,
but had 2 recovery days before the race, which worked out just about
right. I did more like 4 mi harder (1 hr) than my easy effort, rather
than the 3 mi and some gentle hills to flush out the 1 hr. This included
(among other diversions) trying to follow a couple women runners back to
the start - they were clearly doing an easy run for them (chatting
easily), gradually overtook me (maybe 5-10 min from end of my run), and
I pulled over to let them pass, then thought I'd see if I could hang
with them. I did for a couple min, then struggled (but ran through it)
on the last, gentle uphill to the finish. So I had a *really* good idea
where my breaking point was on somewhat similar topography 🙂 (I've
never claimed to be a disciplined runner 😉 ) I made sure I ate well
afterwards.

yea, on longer runs, I definitely need to run much more within myself,
but get distracted on races and end up walking a little more than I
probably need to, but maybe not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was starting to feel guilty about the downhill pickoffs since it was
obvious they hadn't practiced downhill running.

Hmmm...maybe you should have entered the lightning division. ;-)

Yea, right 😉 I've looked at the lists of runners in the past, and the
lightning league really does have some of fast runners. Lessee, my 10k
PR is about 1:40, and I think the RD's expect to have runners finish
within about 1:15 (no stated requirement, but the structure of the race
suggests a long hour for the longest races) so they can figure out the
results.

Quoted message said:

Probably not your race, but is this the start/finish?
http://tinyurl.com/7wwcj

That's the Kincaid race that starts from the chalet. Same place Snowshoe
Nationals were held.

Actually, here's an article about the previous week's race and gives a
flavor for some of the history and popularity of the events.
http://tinyurl.com/czl9a

Quoted message said:

Congrats again and thanks for the report. What's next?

14k /1200 ft on Sep 25, which could be a very long day if the weather's
like last year - 3 in of slush on the ground, then it started raining
hard and blowing. I did the shorter version and was finished before the
rain and wind started, but I was watching rain & wind while getting my
snow tires put on car.

5k on home trails Oct 8

Thanks for reading.

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005

Dot said:

Phil M. said:

Dot said:

This was also my first (and only for this year) of the Tuesday night
series - a series of 9 very popular cross-country races on urban
(usually xc ski) trails in Anchorage.

Urban trails? That would be a sidewalk in these parts. ;-)

The Anchorage ones come equipped with bears and moose 😉 Seriously,
most of the "urban" trails were originally designed as xc ski trails -
built and maintained by those groups. Which means wide and de-rooted,
de-rocked, etc. Most are surrounded by road system. This contrasts with
more "backcountry" (for lack of better terms) that go for awhile and may
never hit another road. Besides more bears and moose, these come
equippeed with rocks and roots trained to trip runners.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Three leagues - lightning
(competitive, up to 10k), farm (recreational, up to 7k), munchkins (kids
of all ages). Neither the distance nor the route are known until that
night, so it makes for interesting pacing exercise.

You've never been on this trail?

Nope. I wasn't even sure where the trailhead was, and the best I could
find for a map was the adjacent mushing trails. Even if I ran this race
next year, the route might be different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Temperature 57F, calm, blue sky, leaves starting to turn color.

Sounds wonderful!

Quoted message said:

couple women, one in a TNT shirt. I figured they'd be slow, possibly run
/ walking, but probably have an idea of pace, and I didn't feel strong
enough to pass them. I followed them for awhile - until they started
walking a DOWN hill (they were walking cuz of steepness, not a scheduled
walk). I launched past them since I'd run many downhills either steeper
or longer, and this was much better footing.

They probably have a fear of falling due to lack of experience. You
said it was a wide trail, otherwise I'd have a fear of running into a
walker.

Right, and it was well maintained so people did tend to stay to the
right unless passing. Ours tend to get a little rutty and the safest
line down shifts from side to side. Most of my passes were near the top.
Many people almost stopped at the top and looked, kinda like high dive
fright.

I can definitely understand their concern. I can remember my first
significant run on home trails several years ago - my back hurt cuz I
slammed heels on downhill since I didn't have the strength to land in
forefoot area on downs and

This is something I've learned (or still learning). Trying to shorten
my stride length while not hitting heels first. If this is on the road,
then I try to run on the dirt shoulder, if not then someone's lawn.

Quoted message said:

those darn Grid Stabil heels were so high, I couldn't help but hit heel
first.

With all the talk on the ultra list about barefoot, minimalist, and
non-supportive shoes, I'm starting to think I may be hurting my running
by wearing a support shoe. I may just go out and get a cushioned
trainer (NB 833) to see what happens. I've completely stopped wearing
my Brooks ASR trail shoes, instead opting for Asics 2100s for all
surfaces from road to trails. Keep in mind I don't ever run on anything
too technical. Not like you do in AK. So the 2100 may turn into my
trail shoe and the NB 833 for roads (if they work out).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your experience is showing. If it were a longer race, you might have
had to pace yourself by walking some of the uphill bits.

with them. I did for a couple min, then struggled (but ran through it)
on the last, gentle uphill to the finish. So I had a *really* good idea
where my breaking point was on somewhat similar topography 🙂 (I've
never claimed to be a disciplined runner 😉

I could also use some self discipline. I'm always fighting the urge to
go faster. I know enough about running to know that some days are
simply not productive if I run too fast. But sometimes I can't help it.
If I see a lot of other runners on my route or if the weather is nice,
then I find it difficult to hold back. My pace increases without even
thinking about it. Of course, then I pay for it when on the next day
I'm struggling to finish a scheduled hard workout.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Dot said:

those darn Grid Stabil heels were so high, I couldn't help but hit heel
first.

With all the talk on the ultra list about barefoot, minimalist, and
non-supportive shoes, I'm starting to think I may be hurting my running
by wearing a support shoe. I may just go out and get a cushioned
trainer (NB 833) to see what happens. I've completely stopped wearing
my Brooks ASR trail shoes,

While my Brooks ASR's felt sweet when I tested them on PT's tm, he
apparently has a soft tm. When I ran in them on easy trail, after
spending a lot of time manually flexing the sole since it felt stiff,
they felt very much like my old Grid Stabil's - heavy, rigid, tall
(unstable). My feet had to work *hard* in them, and I almost cut the run
short - to about 2k. I did finish the 5k run, but now use ASR's for
biking (firm platform) or walking. Some others on the RW trail/ultra
forum don't have kind things to say about them either. My heart
fluttered last night while looking at STP sales - they had my beloved
Brooks Trespass (originals) on sale, but, sadly, only had mens, but
still had a good assortment of sizes. Mens shoes seem to have the arch
wrong for me.

Since the ASR's were right on the tm, but lousy in the real world, I
decided not to send the Cascadias back, which felt soft on tm. I haven't
run in them yet, but did a recovery walk in them on Wed. They lack the
torsional stability of my Trespasses, which is what my PT had
recommended. But I'm also wondering if they might be ok for sloppy snow
running, and my PT did suggest they might be ok for road running. IOW,
I'm thinking about using them occasionally as a shoe that's going to
provide some extra work for my ankles in winter - to be used only
occasionally.

They don't feel as nice as my Trespasses, but I'll give them a try after
my races are done. I never thought I'd reach this point, but I can feel
the trail better in Trespasses than these newer attempts at shoes. That
also means I can feel the rocks - some of our gravel roads have pretty
chunky gravel and the tread (claws, I think Doug called them) on the
Trespasses accentuates that. But most of my running is on dirt, so it's
a relatively small issue, at least this year with the rain. Last year
with no rain, all the dirt trails had been baked hard as asphalt.

I don't run barefoot, but I do at least 5-10 min of barefoot walking and
drills in my lawn about 6 days every week. Some of it is the sideways
maneuvers, like grapevine, that stretch and twist the hips. My xt class
has 20-30 min of barefoot (well, in socks, which isn't quite the same)
warmup every week, and sometimes more.

I've found the barefoot work really strengthens my foot and ankles and
have been trying to figure out how to set up a gymnastics floor mat-like
surface in my living room, so I can do some of this stuff even when
there's a foot of snow on the ground. Yes, I have done a little bit of
barefoot walking in snow when my AT/PF was really bad a few years ago -
cut down on the burn, like an ice bath - but the coldness tends to make
ankles, esp. the achilles inflexible, so that's not really an option. I
also used barefoot running in my lawn to rehab AT.

Quoted message said:

instead opting for Asics 2100s for all
surfaces from road to trails. Keep in mind I don't ever run on anything
too technical. Not like you do in AK.

I don't run technical trails. You should see the technical ones 😉.

Quoted message said:

I could also use some self discipline. I'm always fighting the urge to
go faster. I know enough about running to know that some days are
simply not productive if I run too fast.

I've found I'm pretty good about behaving myself on long runs, well at
least most of it - reward is not being toast at the end 🙂. Since I
rarely run consecutive days, I've found I can push segments of shorter
runs if there's something I want to try, and if there's any lingering
effects (rarely 2 days later), I'll just focus on a recovery run next
time. Actually, my first runs at lower hr (closer to 75 than to 78%)
this summer - when it was warm and not being attacked by mosquitoes -
needed recovering from, since the mechanics were so awkward. I'm getting
better at it now and don't have to concentrate as much, but I have a
feeling I won't be running like that at -20F or in blowing wind storms 😉.

Quoted message said:

But sometimes I can't help it.
If I see a lot of other runners on my route or if the weather is nice,
then I find it difficult to hold back. My pace increases without even
thinking about it. Of course, then I pay for it when on the next day
I'm struggling to finish a scheduled hard workout.

Most of the time, I rarely see anyone. And the few times I do see other
runners, they're usually by me in a flash. This was the first time this
opportunity presented itself (slow runners warming up) - and I had
already added another 1+ mi when some of the guys building a new single
track (it's a sweet trail) asked me to try it for running. I felt bad
about not helping them but by the time they said they were going to have
a work day, I had other commitments in the morning - so the least I
could do was test it. (I had helped on part of it on an earlier work day
so have run parts of it several times.)

Dot

--
"It's not football, but it is trail running." - Julie Udchachon, Women's
US 50k trail champion 2005