Move Saddle Forward?

Ronsonic said:

You just don't seem to want dropped bars or at least don't want what
they mean in terms of position and the demands that makes on flexibility and
condition.

I don't agree with that. A set of drop bars does not need to be set up
so that it makes demands on flexibility and condition. Drop bars *can*
be set up with a very relaxed position. (see
http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup.html)

I do agree that after some regular riding and the concomitant increase
in flexibility and fitness, Harry will probably want his bars set for a
bit more aggressive position. He still won't want to be "stretched out
on a rack."

Harry, do you cycle regularly on a single? If so, your position probably
won't change much with the tandem. If not, then you'll want to set up
the tandem comfortably for your current condition and probably adapt the
setup later to accomodate a desire for a slightly more aggressive position.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Ronsonic said:

But you "feel like you're stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks?
That's the way EVERYBODY feels when they start with these things.

Not in the least. The idea that drops must be mounted low and far away is
particularly bogus in this case. He has a tandem; short of racing other
tandems, there's little incentive to stretch out aero benefits - and once
his head height gets near the stoker's there's no point anyway.

Normally for touring one wants not a super-aero position but a somewhat
dropped one and a somewhat upright one (to shift the weight about and to
breathe hard uphill); this is doubly true on a tandem.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Ronsonic said:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:49 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]> wrote:

Harry,

You've only got 50 miles on the drop bars, that are set a forearm length away
from the saddle at saddle height and you have poor flexibility, the problem is
NOT the bike.

A road bike proprly setup with drop bars should feel stretched out for anyone
not acclimated to it.

The bike may not be perfect for you, but it sure as hell isn't the monstrosity
of fraudulent fitting that you have suggested. But you "feel like you're
stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks? That's the way EVERYBODY feels when
they start with these things. Most people don't even reach for the hooks for the
first couple hundred miles or so.

Do the work and the bike will fit better. Put in enough miles to know what
you're talking about then tell us if the dealer abused your trust.

Maybe, as I've suggested before, you should try some trekking bars for the hand
positions. You just don't seem to want dropped bars or at least don't want what
they mean in terms of position and the demands that makes on flexibility and
condition.

Ron

Ron,

With all due respect, I'm now confused about your suggestions. In a
previous post, referring to my fit on my tandem, you wrote:

"Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7
with a 34" inseam going to find a frame that fits.

There is no bike that's going to fit, not with anything resembling the
normal geometry and a full size front wheel. There's just so much room
between the wheels to draw the triangle that defines the points of
contact."

Now you are suggesting that the bike, although not fitting perfectly,
should be a good fit if I put enough miles on it.

I definitely do want drop bars because if I scoot forward on the
saddle some 3 or 4", my hands, arms, and shoulders feel great.
Admittedly, I can only ride short distances like that, but what a
difference! And I love all the different hand positions as well as
being able to shift and brake at the same time (which is probably a
bigger factor on a tandem than a single.) I just don't understand why
I should feel stretched out when riding on the hoods. When I look at
the buy on his bike in The (Rivendell) Reader:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
I get the feeling that is what I look like when I scoot forward on my
saddle. I sure don't get the impression that the rider in that pix is,
or feels, stretched out. When I ride on the hoods my arms are straight
- there is no bend at the elbow.

I admit being new to the biking scene, but I have spent a great deal
of time trying to understand bike fitting for our style of riding. I
guess we would fit in the category of recreational or touring riders.
We enjoy riding rural roads, have done a couple of metric centuries,
and hope this next year to ride quite a few centuries. Enjoying the
scenery (and each other's company) at an average speed of 15 - 17mph
(its quite hilly where we ride) is right up our alley.

Cheers,
HarryB

dvt said:

Ronsonic said:

You just don't seem to want dropped bars or at least don't want what
they mean in terms of position and the demands that makes on flexibility and
condition.

I don't agree with that. A set of drop bars does not need to be set up
so that it makes demands on flexibility and condition. Drop bars *can*
be set up with a very relaxed position. (see
http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup.html)

I do agree that after some regular riding and the concomitant increase
in flexibility and fitness, Harry will probably want his bars set for a
bit more aggressive position. He still won't want to be "stretched out
on a rack."

Harry, do you cycle regularly on a single? If so, your position probably
won't change much with the tandem. If not, then you'll want to set up
the tandem comfortably for your current condition and probably adapt the
setup later to accomodate a desire for a slightly more aggressive position.

No, I don't ride a single bike.

Besides feeling stretched out, I also feel that I am not in proper
control of the bike when braking or riding slowly. I realize that the
captain's control of a tandem is more difficult than that of the rider
on a single bike since on the tandem the captain needs to also deal
with a stoker who may not always know exactly what the captain wants
the bike to do at certain critical moments. Certainly, the further
away from my body the controls (handlebars/brakes/shifters) are, the
less control I have. So I can see that if I have the handlebars close
enough for comfort at this time, I might want to move them further
away as I gain more experience.

HarryB

David Damerell said:

Ronsonic said:

But you "feel like you're stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks?
That's the way EVERYBODY feels when they start with these things.

Not in the least. The idea that drops must be mounted low and far away is
particularly bogus in this case. He has a tandem; short of racing other
tandems, there's little incentive to stretch out aero benefits - and once
his head height gets near the stoker's there's no point anyway.

Normally for touring one wants not a super-aero position but a somewhat
dropped one and a somewhat upright one (to shift the weight about and to
breathe hard uphill); this is doubly true on a tandem.

This is all true enough, and I suppose I should be careful to not overstate
things and be sure that I'm being clear.

How is this for more accurate - any 50ish year old guy with little recent
cycling experience and is not actively engaged in a serious strength and
flexibility program who gets on a properly fitted bike with drop bars is going
to feel stretched out and uncomfortable at first. It will take a couple hundred
miles to get really comfortable with it. I can say this from recent personal
experience.

Remember we're talking about a guy who can't touch his toes. Now I'm not saying
this to get down on Harry, but he's going to be unhappy so long as he has
unrealistic expectations of how comfy he can expect a bike to be. I think it is
best to know when work lies ahead and he's got some.

"Mounted low and far away" is a relative thing. His bar is 1/2" from finger tip
with elbow on the nose of the saddle and is level with the seat. This is a
perfectly reasonable position.

Now perhaps his bars should be yet higher and closer for the time being, even if
that were true, then it does not mean that his bike is terribly, horribly wrong
and the dealer cheated him by selling it to him. Very few stems can be raised
above the saddle.

In any case, 50 miles is not enough time to get comfy with drop bars for a newby
(or in my case a guy who was away from them for 12 years). It takes hundreds of
miles to get good on the bike and thousands to master it.

I've got recent experience, this year I broke out the road bike from years in
storage and went through the re-acclimation. Set the bars level with the saddle
and moved it forward and down a smidge and got to know pain again. Over the next
200 miles the saddle moved back to where it belonged and then the bar started
moving back down to where it belonged. Trust me unless you are in cycling
condition a reasonable bike fit is not comfortable, especially when you get to
be old.

The difference is I knew from past experience my body had to be adjusted not
just the bike. I recommend regular short rides to get accustomed and develop the
needed flexibility.

Ron

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:56:00 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

Ronsonic said:

But you "feel like you're stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks?
That's the way EVERYBODY feels when they start with these things.

Not in the least. The idea that drops must be mounted low and far away is
particularly bogus in this case. He has a tandem; short of racing other
tandems, there's little incentive to stretch out aero benefits - and once
his head height gets near the stoker's there's no point anyway.

Normally for touring one wants not a super-aero position but a somewhat
dropped one and a somewhat upright one (to shift the weight about and to
breathe hard uphill); this is doubly true on a tandem.

This is all true enough, and I suppose I should be careful to not overstate
things and be sure that I'm being clear.

How is this for more accurate - any 50ish year old guy with little recent
cycling experience and is not actively engaged in a serious strength and
flexibility program who gets on a properly fitted bike with drop bars is going
to feel stretched out and uncomfortable at first. It will take a couple hundred
miles to get really comfortable with it. I can say this from recent personal
experience.

Remember we're talking about a guy who can't touch his toes. Now I'm not saying
this to get down on Harry, but he's going to be unhappy so long as he has
unrealistic expectations of how comfy he can expect a bike to be. I think it is
best to know when work lies ahead and he's got some.

"Mounted low and far away" is a relative thing. His bar is 1/2" from finger tip
with elbow on the nose of the saddle and is level with the seat. This is a
perfectly reasonable position.

Now perhaps his bars should be yet higher and closer for the time being, even if
that were true, then it does not mean that his bike is terribly, horribly wrong
and the dealer cheated him by selling it to him. Very few stems can be raised
above the saddle.

In any case, 50 miles is not enough time to get comfy with drop bars for a newby
(or in my case a guy who was away from them for 12 years). It takes hundreds of
miles to get good on the bike and thousands to master it.

I've got recent experience, this year I broke out the road bike from years in
storage and went through the re-acclimation. Set the bars level with the saddle
and moved it forward and down a smidge and got to know pain again. Over the next
200 miles the saddle moved back to where it belonged and then the bar started
moving back down to where it belonged. Trust me unless you are in cycling
condition a reasonable bike fit is not comfortable, especially when you get to
be old.

The difference is I knew from past experience my body had to be adjusted not
just the bike. I recommend regular short rides to get accustomed and develop the
needed flexibility.

Ron

Ron,

I appreciate the points you have made. I would note the following,
however:

1) Most of those who commented on my build and bike size (5' 7", 34"
inseam, XLarge frame,) include you, said that this was a definite
mismatch. If this is true, then I do blame the dealer since he has
over 20 years selling tandems and never once warned me that the fit
might be troublesome

2) The person at the LBS who attempted to fit me to the bike said it
was a mismatch that was impossible to fix using normal means

3) I spoke over the phone with three different bike fitters who use
the Serotto method of bike fitting and all three admitted that they
would be hard pressed to make the combination of me and the bike work

4) The tandem manufacturer with whom I spoke said that he was quite
sure that no production frame would be suitable for me

5) I'm willing to put in the effort and time if necessary. After all,
within the first year after we started riding, we have put over 2,500
miles on this bike, including three metric centuries. But, when I
changed from flat bars to road bars the fit (stretched feeling) got
worse, not better. I'm not willing to struggle against impossible odds
for very long.

Again, thanks for your input. One of the wonders of the 'net is that
one can tap into the opinions of a large number of well meaning
people.

Cheers,
HarryB

Harry said:

1) Most of those who commented on my build and bike size (5' 7", 34"
inseam, XLarge frame,) said that this was a definite
mismatch. If this is true, then I do blame the dealer since he has
over 20 years selling tandems and never once warned me that the fit
might be troublesome.

I had the same initial reaction about a 5'7" rider on a XL frame. But then
you said this is a mountain bike. Mountain bikes are sized very differently
than road bikes. Yet with the drop bars and the type of rides you're doing,
it sounds like you're using it more like a road bike than a mountain bike.

The large frame accomodates your 34" inseam, and also allows you to get the
bars high. (If you had a smaller frame, you'd have a real hard time getting
the bars at the height you want.) The only possible problem might be the top
tube length. But the 45mm horizontal extension of your stem seems to put the
bars at a reasonable position.

Quoted message said:

2) The person at the LBS who attempted to fit me to the bike said it
was a mismatch that was impossible to fix using normal means

Again, it's hard for us to comment without seeing you on the bike. But the
measurements you've provided don't indicate a terrible fit.

Quoted message said:

5) I'm willing to put in the effort and time if necessary. After all,
within the first year after we started riding, we have put over 2,500
miles on this bike, including three metric centuries. But, when I
changed from flat bars to road bars the fit (stretched feeling) got
worse, not better. I'm not willing to struggle against impossible odds
for very long.

Drop bars will definitely make you feel more stretched out! I know a few
people with road bikes who have switched from drop bars to flat bars for
comfort. There's nothing wrong with that. BTW, braking a tandem on steep
descents with drop bars is best done from the drops. If you're only using
the brake hoods, you're not getting the benifits of the drop bar anyway.

I think your concerns about comfort and bike control would be helped by
going back to the flat bars. If that rules out monthly centuries, so be it.
There's nothing wrong with doing regular 50-60 mile rides. This is supposed
to be about enjoyment, not suffering!

In any case, I would definitely recommend getting a lot more riding under
your belt before making a big investment in another tandem. And if/when you
do get another bike, be sure to take a real test ride before purchasing.

Good luck,
Art Harris

Harry said:

1) Most of those who commented on my build and bike size (5' 7", 34"
inseam, XLarge frame,) said that this was a definite
mismatch. If this is true, then I do blame the dealer since he has
over 20 years selling tandems and never once warned me that the fit
might be troublesome.

I had the same initial reaction about a 5'7" rider on a XL frame. But then
you said this is a mountain bike. Mountain bikes are sized very differently
than road bikes. Yet with the drop bars and the type of rides you're doing,
it sounds like you're using it more like a road bike than a mountain bike.

The large frame accomodates your 34" inseam, and also allows you to get the
bars high. (If you had a smaller frame, you'd have a real hard time getting
the bars at the height you want.) The only possible problem might be the top
tube length. But the 45mm horizontal extension of your stem seems to put the
bars at a reasonable position.

Quoted message said:

2) The person at the LBS who attempted to fit me to the bike said it
was a mismatch that was impossible to fix using normal means

Again, it's hard for us to comment without seeing you on the bike. But the
measurements you've provided don't indicate a terrible fit.

Quoted message said:

5) I'm willing to put in the effort and time if necessary. After all,
within the first year after we started riding, we have put over 2,500
miles on this bike, including three metric centuries. But, when I
changed from flat bars to road bars the fit (stretched feeling) got
worse, not better. I'm not willing to struggle against impossible odds
for very long.

Drop bars will definitely make you feel more stretched out! I know a few
people with road bikes who have switched from drop bars to flat bars for
comfort. There's nothing wrong with that. BTW, braking a tandem on steep
descents with drop bars is best done from the drops. If you're only using
the brake hoods, you're not getting the benifits of the drop bar anyway.

I think your concerns about comfort and bike control would be helped by
going back to the flat bars. If that rules out monthly centuries, so be it.
There's nothing wrong with doing regular 50-60 mile rides. This is supposed
to be about enjoyment, not suffering!

In any case, I would definitely recommend getting a lot more riding under
your belt before making a big investment in another tandem. And if/when you
do get another bike, be sure to take a real test ride before purchasing.

Good luck,
Art Harris

Arthur Harris said:

I think your concerns about comfort and bike control would be helped by
going back to the flat bars.

Or he could try a really tall stem, like the Technomic, and get the bars
2" or 3" above the saddle, moving them considerably back and up towards
his shoulders.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Harry said:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 04:56:00 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

Ronsonic <[email hidden]> wrote:
>But you "feel like you're stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks?
>That's the way EVERYBODY feels when they start with these things.

Not in the least. The idea that drops must be mounted low and far away is
particularly bogus in this case. He has a tandem; short of racing other
tandems, there's little incentive to stretch out aero benefits - and once
his head height gets near the stoker's there's no point anyway.

Normally for touring one wants not a super-aero position but a somewhat
dropped one and a somewhat upright one (to shift the weight about and to
breathe hard uphill); this is doubly true on a tandem.

This is all true enough, and I suppose I should be careful to not overstate
things and be sure that I'm being clear.

How is this for more accurate - any 50ish year old guy with little recent
cycling experience and is not actively engaged in a serious strength and
flexibility program who gets on a properly fitted bike with drop bars is going
to feel stretched out and uncomfortable at first. It will take a couple hundred
miles to get really comfortable with it. I can say this from recent personal
experience.

Quoted message said:

I appreciate the points you have made. I would note the following,
however:

1) Most of those who commented on my build and bike size (5' 7", 34"
inseam, XLarge frame,) include you, said that this was a definite
mismatch. If this is true, then I do blame the dealer since he has
over 20 years selling tandems and never once warned me that the fit
might be troublesome

Some warning might have gone a long way here.

Is the guy who sold you this bike with the flat bars the one who refitted it
with drops? If not ...

Quoted message said:

2) The person at the LBS who attempted to fit me to the bike said it
was a mismatch that was impossible to fix using normal means

Well if we put drop bars on a MTB I suppose we can expect fit issues.

Quoted message said:

3) I spoke over the phone with three different bike fitters who use
the Serotto method of bike fitting and all three admitted that they
would be hard pressed to make the combination of me and the bike work

4) The tandem manufacturer with whom I spoke said that he was quite
sure that no production frame would be suitable for me

This is what I had suspected as well and mentioned in previous posts - that was
based on just your description of your proportions. I've changed that opinion
somewhat based on how close you've gotten to a standard setup. Not that anything
off the shelf is going to be perfect for you. But, having the top of bars level
with the saddle and a forearm's length away is a perfectly reasonable
arrangement. In fact, it is bog-standard, textbook normal.

Quoted message said:

5) I'm willing to put in the effort and time if necessary. After all,
within the first year after we started riding, we have put over 2,500
miles on this bike, including three metric centuries. But, when I
changed from flat bars to road bars the fit (stretched feeling) got
worse, not better. I'm not willing to struggle against impossible odds
for very long.

Well yeah, the drops are very literally further away, you will be more stretched
when the bar is further from the saddle.

You have got to work on flexibility. Tight hamstrings and legs means a tight
back which limits your reach. You've gotten a lot of miles in (good work) and
that should have loosened you up some.

Also look at the rest of the fit of this bike. If your saddle is suited to a
more upright position and then you drop the bars, you now have the wrong saddle.
That's going to make it uncomfortable to flatten your back and reach.

Despite the benefits of the internet, the limitations are that things that might
be clear in a moment's looking, pointing and poking and maybe turn a wrench and
say "how's this" become long and wordy. On seeing you and the bike we all might
just say "no way drops work on this bike for this guy." But then, from what you
describe, the parts are in the right places so let's go with it. Get flexible,
make sure the saddle isn't in the way, not too wide, high, low or tilted up, and
see if the fit doesn't get better in a hundred miles or so.

Or you could just go totally Fred and put the bars on upside down. ;-p

Ron

Harry said:

Ronsonic said:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:49 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]> wrote:

Harry,

You've only got 50 miles on the drop bars, that are set a forearm length away
from the saddle at saddle height and you have poor flexibility, the problem is
NOT the bike.

A road bike proprly setup with drop bars should feel stretched out for anyone
not acclimated to it.

Quoted message said:

With all due respect, I'm now confused about your suggestions. In a
previous post, referring to my fit on my tandem, you wrote:

"Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7
with a 34" inseam going to find a frame that fits.

I'll stand by that. However, you've typed more since then that this next
statement is MORE true.

Quoted message said:

Now you are suggesting that the bike, although not fitting perfectly,
should be a good fit if I put enough miles on it.

I did more on this in the other post. But the distance from seat to bars you
described is pretty darn normal. And I am sure 50 miles is not enough to adapt
to as big a change as going from flats to drops.

You've persuaded me that your dealer did a pretty impressive job of getting a
difficult physique fitted to an off the shelf frame.

Quoted message said:

I definitely do want drop bars because if I scoot forward on the
saddle some 3 or 4", my hands, arms, and shoulders feel great.
Admittedly, I can only ride short distances like that, but what a
difference! And I love all the different hand positions as well as
being able to shift and brake at the same time (which is probably a
bigger factor on a tandem than a single.) I just don't understand why
I should feel stretched out when riding on the hoods. When I look at
the buy on his bike in The (Rivendell) Reader:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
I get the feeling that is what I look like when I scoot forward on my
saddle. I sure don't get the impression that the rider in that pix is,
or feels, stretched out. When I ride on the hoods my arms are straight
- there is no bend at the elbow.

As mentioned in the other post, your legs are very tight, which means your back
isn't going to bend forward comfortably while pedaling and while that doesn't
make your arms shorter, it does mean they have to reach further.

Your particular rider / bike / bar combination might not be practical. But I'd
invest some more miles and a few weeks stretching before I wrote it off.

Let's put it this way,

if I'm right, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, you will have ridden
another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and everything will snap into
place and your bike will feel sweet and comfy

If I'm wrong, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, will have ridden
another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and you'll still have the same
problem but have more knowledge and physical ability to solve it.

Quoted message said:

I admit being new to the biking scene, but I have spent a great deal
of time trying to understand bike fitting for our style of riding. I
guess we would fit in the category of recreational or touring riders.
We enjoy riding rural roads, have done a couple of metric centuries,
and hope this next year to ride quite a few centuries. Enjoying the
scenery (and each other's company) at an average speed of 15 - 17mph
(its quite hilly where we ride) is right up our alley.

Keep having fun with it.

Ron

RonSonic said:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:49:41 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ronsonic said:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:49 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Harry,

You've only got 50 miles on the drop bars, that are set a forearm
length away from the saddle at saddle height and you have poor
flexibility, the problem is NOT the bike.

A road bike proprly setup with drop bars should feel stretched out
for anyone not acclimated to it.

Quoted message said:

With all due respect, I'm now confused about your suggestions. In a
previous post, referring to my fit on my tandem, you wrote:

"Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7
with a 34" inseam going to find a frame that fits.

I'll stand by that. However, you've typed more since then that this
next statement is MORE true.

Quoted message said:

Now you are suggesting that the bike, although not fitting perfectly,
should be a good fit if I put enough miles on it.

I did more on this in the other post. But the distance from seat to
bars you described is pretty darn normal. And I am sure 50 miles is
not enough to adapt to as big a change as going from flats to drops.

You've persuaded me that your dealer did a pretty impressive job of
getting a difficult physique fitted to an off the shelf frame.

Quoted message said:

I definitely do want drop bars because if I scoot forward on the
saddle some 3 or 4", my hands, arms, and shoulders feel great.
Admittedly, I can only ride short distances like that, but what a
difference! And I love all the different hand positions as well as
being able to shift and brake at the same time (which is probably a
bigger factor on a tandem than a single.) I just don't understand why
I should feel stretched out when riding on the hoods. When I look at
the buy on his bike in The (Rivendell) Reader:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
I get the feeling that is what I look like when I scoot forward on my
saddle. I sure don't get the impression that the rider in that pix
is, or feels, stretched out. When I ride on the hoods my arms are
straight - there is no bend at the elbow.

As mentioned in the other post, your legs are very tight, which means
your back isn't going to bend forward comfortably while pedaling and
while that doesn't make your arms shorter, it does mean they have to
reach further.

Your particular rider / bike / bar combination might not be
practical. But I'd invest some more miles and a few weeks stretching
before I wrote it off.

Let's put it this way,

if I'm right, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, you will
have ridden another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and
everything will snap into place and your bike will feel sweet and
comfy

If I'm wrong, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, will have
ridden another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and you'll still
have the same problem but have more knowledge and physical ability to
solve it.

Quoted message said:

I admit being new to the biking scene, but I have spent a great deal
of time trying to understand bike fitting for our style of riding. I
guess we would fit in the category of recreational or touring riders.
We enjoy riding rural roads, have done a couple of metric centuries,
and hope this next year to ride quite a few centuries. Enjoying the
scenery (and each other's company) at an average speed of 15 - 17mph
(its quite hilly where we ride) is right up our alley.

Keep having fun with it.

Ron

Another great answer!

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:23:44 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Harry said:

Ronsonic said:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:49 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]> wrote:

Harry,

You've only got 50 miles on the drop bars, that are set a forearm length away
from the saddle at saddle height and you have poor flexibility, the problem is
NOT the bike.

A road bike proprly setup with drop bars should feel stretched out for anyone
not acclimated to it.

Quoted message said:

With all due respect, I'm now confused about your suggestions. In a
previous post, referring to my fit on my tandem, you wrote:

"Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7
with a 34" inseam going to find a frame that fits.

I'll stand by that. However, you've typed more since then that this next
statement is MORE true.

Quoted message said:

Now you are suggesting that the bike, although not fitting perfectly,
should be a good fit if I put enough miles on it.

I did more on this in the other post. But the distance from seat to bars you
described is pretty darn normal. And I am sure 50 miles is not enough to adapt
to as big a change as going from flats to drops.

You've persuaded me that your dealer did a pretty impressive job of getting a
difficult physique fitted to an off the shelf frame.

Quoted message said:

I definitely do want drop bars because if I scoot forward on the
saddle some 3 or 4", my hands, arms, and shoulders feel great.
Admittedly, I can only ride short distances like that, but what a
difference! And I love all the different hand positions as well as
being able to shift and brake at the same time (which is probably a
bigger factor on a tandem than a single.) I just don't understand why
I should feel stretched out when riding on the hoods. When I look at
the buy on his bike in The (Rivendell) Reader:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/rr_comfposition.html
I get the feeling that is what I look like when I scoot forward on my
saddle. I sure don't get the impression that the rider in that pix is,
or feels, stretched out. When I ride on the hoods my arms are straight
- there is no bend at the elbow.

As mentioned in the other post, your legs are very tight, which means your back
isn't going to bend forward comfortably while pedaling and while that doesn't
make your arms shorter, it does mean they have to reach further.

Your particular rider / bike / bar combination might not be practical. But I'd
invest some more miles and a few weeks stretching before I wrote it off.

Let's put it this way,

if I'm right, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, you will have ridden
another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and everything will snap into
place and your bike will feel sweet and comfy

If I'm wrong, in 6 weeks you'll be able to touch your toes, will have ridden
another 150-200 miles (these are good things) and you'll still have the same
problem but have more knowledge and physical ability to solve it.

Quoted message said:

I admit being new to the biking scene, but I have spent a great deal
of time trying to understand bike fitting for our style of riding. I
guess we would fit in the category of recreational or touring riders.
We enjoy riding rural roads, have done a couple of metric centuries,
and hope this next year to ride quite a few centuries. Enjoying the
scenery (and each other's company) at an average speed of 15 - 17mph
(its quite hilly where we ride) is right up our alley.

Keep having fun with it.

Ron

Ron,

Your thoughtful suggestions, as well as those of a few other posters,
merit more consideration. We rode about 25 miles this afternoon and I
thought quite a bit about your suggestions. Both my wife and I really
like this bike and have no desire to part with it if there is anyway
possible to make it work for us. I definitely want to keep the drop
bars since I was uncomfortable with the flat ones and I love the
brifters on these drop bars.

I have not given any thought to the idea that my legs might be tight.
I'll accept that if you say that is the case. But, do you really think
I could touch my toes in 6 weeks? Doesn't the fact that I have a
rather long inseam for my height mean that I would have to be much
more flexible than the average person to touch my toes?

I understand that you claim that if I stretched regularly and continue
to ride with our present bars, my level of comfort on the bike should
get better with time. I'm very willing to try that!

Now, I'm not being lazy when I ask my next question. What exercises
should I do in order to increase my flexibility, specifically in the
area you are talking about? Googling brought me a host of different
types of exercises for many different purposes, but I don't want to
"waste" my time trying all kinds of different exercises. If you can
direct me to a realiable resource I would be very appreciative.

Cheers,
HarryB

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:21:39 -0500, "Arthur Harris" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

Drop bars will definitely make you feel more stretched out! I know a few
people with road bikes who have switched from drop bars to flat bars for
comfort. There's nothing wrong with that. BTW, braking a tandem on steep
descents with drop bars is best done from the drops. If you're only using
the brake hoods, you're not getting the benifits of the drop bar anyway.

One thing I have really enjoyed has been the variety of hand positions
the drop bars provide. With the flat bars my right hand (I've got
trouble with carpal tunnel syndrome in that wrist) would be numb often
times within minutes. With the drop bars I've only had a little
numbness which was usually relieved when I changed positions.

Quoted message said:

I think your concerns about comfort and bike control would be helped by
going back to the flat bars. If that rules out monthly centuries, so be it.
There's nothing wrong with doing regular 50-60 mile rides. This is supposed
to be about enjoyment, not suffering!

No, I do not want to go back to the flat bars. They were uncomfortable
and after a year (~2,500 miles) of riding with them I'm quite sure the
fit won't improve with additional time.

Quoted message said:

In any case, I would definitely recommend getting a lot more riding under
your belt before making a big investment in another tandem. And if/when you
do get another bike, be sure to take a real test ride before purchasing.

Yes, with the encouragement of you and some other posters, I intend to
do quite a bit more riding and tinkering before I make a final
decision.

Quoted message said:

Good luck,
Art Harris

Cheers,
HarryB

RE/

Quoted message said:

One thing I have really enjoyed has been the variety of hand positions
the drop bars provide.

Quoted message said:

... the flat bars...were uncomfortable

I'm with you on flat bars. They're the pits for me.

OTOH, have you ever tried, say, 2.5" risers with bar ends?

That's what I'm using now and both the rise and the bar ends each make a world
of difference.

The rise allows fine-tuning reach just by rotating the bars.

I put handlebar tape on the ends, and have them angled down about 15 degrees.
Makes for a nice near-aero position when I want it, a really relaxed
hands-resting-on-bars position when just noodeling along, and a vastly-imporoved
out-of-the-saddle grip.

That setup would cost about fifty bucks....might be worth a try if nothing else
materializes.

--
PeteCresswell

Harry said:

Now, I'm not being lazy when I ask my next question. What exercises
should I do in order to increase my flexibility, specifically in the
area you are talking about? Googling brought me a host of different
types of exercises for many different purposes, but I don't want to
"waste" my time trying all kinds of different exercises. If you can
direct me to a realiable resource I would be very appreciative.

Yoga.

(Pete Cresswell) said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

One thing I have really enjoyed has been the variety of hand positions
the drop bars provide.

Quoted message said:

... the flat bars...were uncomfortable

I'm with you on flat bars. They're the pits for me.

OTOH, have you ever tried, say, 2.5" risers with bar ends?

That's what I'm using now and both the rise and the bar ends each make a world
of difference.

The rise allows fine-tuning reach just by rotating the bars.

I put handlebar tape on the ends, and have them angled down about 15 degrees.
Makes for a nice near-aero position when I want it, a really relaxed
hands-resting-on-bars position when just noodeling along, and a vastly-imporoved
out-of-the-saddle grip.

That setup would cost about fifty bucks....might be worth a try if nothing else
materializes.

I did put bar ends on the flat bars (actually my "flat" bars have a
rise of about 2"😉 but found that they stretched my arms uncomfortably
far apart. I then moved the bar ends inward by placing them between
the shifters and brake levers. This was more comfortable, but resulted
in a cluttered feeling for my fingers.

After switching to the drop bars I have found that I love the many
hand positions they provide as well as much better shifting, and doubt
I would be willing to go back to the flat bars unless ALL else fails.

Cheers,
HarryB

"Harry" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After switching to the drop bars I have found that I love the many
hand positions they provide as well as much better shifting, and doubt
I would be willing to go back to the flat bars unless ALL else fails.

Cheers,
HarryB

Harry, if I may be so bold ...

Your original post has been replied to, and you now have two plethoras (if
that can be a real number) of gimmicks. The techno-advice you have received
seems to vary between the good stuff (a woman's frame ; custom building ;
increasing your body's flexibility) and those other add-ons, which I
consider somewhat spurious.

You offer contradictory statements -
you and your wife life the bike
it hurts your body, the way you fit the bike

Under no circumstances should you keep riding a bike that doesn't fit you.
Two main reasons for that. One, it will keep hurting and do you no good,
both short and long term. Two, riding a bike is about pleasure, and you
seem to have reached the limit, there. Even when we ride and hurt, it's
usually from climbs that demand more of us than just simple spinning, or
because we have exceed other limits. The idea of pain being a discrete
pleasure.

Think about keeping the bike for ten years - then, do you see the value of
replacement ? If you sell the one you have, to people who will fit it
better, and use that money to fund another purchase, I think you will find
all the help you have received here, and more yet to come, surely, will
guide you better in paying attention to the sales staff of a dealer, and
making a wise buy.

If you insist on staying with the bike, how about trying some of the
gimmicks presented so far !? Or, if the distance to a _tandem_ dealer is
too long, try working with a closer, reputable bike shop, which could order
one for you. Cannondale comes to mind, as they seem to have dealers
everywhere, and they do make tandems. Last bit of advice - since your
problem is with reach or flexibility, try to select the frame size on top
tube length, since crank length, seat post elevation, and stem length can be
micro-adjusted by a shop.

Sorry to deflect the wizardry of others, but I think it's time to face up to
reality.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Sandy said:

"Harry" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After switching to the drop bars I have found that I love the many
hand positions they provide as well as much better shifting, and doubt
I would be willing to go back to the flat bars unless ALL else fails.

Cheers,
HarryB

Harry, if I may be so bold ...

Of course you may be so bold... After all, if I had the answer(s) I
would not have posted here in the first place <g>. By posting I
recognized that I might receive advice which might validate or
contradict the advice I had already received IRL. And I might even
receive advice what was totally new.

Quoted message said:

Your original post has been replied to, and you now have two plethoras (if
that can be a real number) of gimmicks. The techno-advice you have received
seems to vary between the good stuff (a woman's frame ; custom building ;
increasing your body's flexibility) and those other add-ons, which I
consider somewhat spurious.

A woman's frame (if there is such a thing in tandems) or a custom
built frame are very expensive options which I will consider as a last
resort. Increasing my body's flexibility is something that had not
been suggested IRL and won't cost any money. The add-ons (I suspect
you are referring to the ASX-50 adapter [mentioned in a different
thread] and straight seatpost) should allow me to bring the handlebars
into an optimal position and won't be horribly expensive. Whether
these will produce the overall fit and stability that I'm looking for
I won't know until I try.

What I do know is that if a new frame is the only answer it will take
me many months of research to find the "right" frame. During that time
all of the low-cost add-ons should help with the fit, albeit
imperfectly.

Quoted message said:

You offer contradictory statements -
you and your wife life the bike
it hurts your body, the way you fit the bike

Yes, I suppose they do sound contradictory. There is a strong
nostalgic element about the bike since it was our 30th wedding
anniversary gift to each other. Despite the uncomfortableness, we do
look forward to each ride. I still remember the first long ride (~35
miles) we took. We were so sore that evening that we couldn't sit,
stand, or lay without pain. And, it was during our special 30th
wedding anniversary vacation with special treats planned for the
evening! (When you have raised 5 kids over the years there isn't much
time for things like that...) Yet, the next day we were ready for
another ride, albeit a very short one.

Quoted message said:

Under no circumstances should you keep riding a bike that doesn't fit you.
Two main reasons for that. One, it will keep hurting and do you no good,
both short and long term. Two, riding a bike is about pleasure, and you
seem to have reached the limit, there. Even when we ride and hurt, it's
usually from climbs that demand more of us than just simple spinning, or
because we have exceed other limits. The idea of pain being a discrete
pleasure.

In my initial post I said, "it feels like my upper body is stretched
out on an inquisition rack." In retrospect that appears to have been a
poor choice of words. When we ride I don't feel pain like the poor
souls who were tortured on those devices must have felt. The stretched
out feeling is uncomfortable and makes it feel like I'm not in proper
control of the bike. I can live with the uncomfortable feeling for a
while if I know things will get better in the future - either from the
purchase of a new frame, better flexibility, or add-ons.

Quoted message said:

Think about keeping the bike for ten years - then, do you see the value of
replacement ? If you sell the one you have, to people who will fit it
better, and use that money to fund another purchase, I think you will find
all the help you have received here, and more yet to come, surely, will
guide you better in paying attention to the sales staff of a dealer, and
making a wise buy.

Yes, I am fully aware that in my ignorance we ended up with something
far less than ideal. And I have learned a lot from my own research as
well as the advice I've received here.

Quoted message said:

If you insist on staying with the bike, how about trying some of the
gimmicks presented so far !? Or, if the distance to a _tandem_ dealer is
too long, try working with a closer, reputable bike shop, which could order
one for you. Cannondale comes to mind, as they seem to have dealers
everywhere, and they do make tandems. Last bit of advice - since your
problem is with reach or flexibility, try to select the frame size on top
tube length, since crank length, seat post elevation, and stem length can be
micro-adjusted by a shop.

Yes, as of right now my course of action is to start stretching to
increase my flexibility, try a couple of the gimmicks to see what I
can do with this bike, and work with various manufacturers to discover
what is available (and at what price) so that if we can't make this
bike work after giving a whole-hearted effort, we'll be ready to order
a new frame.

Quoted message said:

Sorry to deflect the wizardry of others, but I think it's time to face up to
reality.

Thanks for the input.
HarryB

Harry said:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:23:44 GMT, RonSonic <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

I have not given any thought to the idea that my legs might be tight.
I'll accept that if you say that is the case. But, do you really think
I could touch my toes in 6 weeks? Doesn't the fact that I have a
rather long inseam for my height mean that I would have to be much
more flexible than the average person to touch my toes?

Ya know .... This continues to be one of those things about the 'net I was
talking about .... I just can't tell from here and hard for me to guess. Hell, I
don't even know if it matters. Unless you've been doing some specific
flexibility training I know you can get looser in 6 weeks - your back and
hamstrings can get a lot more flexible.

Probably more telling than touching toe is how comfortably you can fold yourself
over.

Quoted message said:

I understand that you claim that if I stretched regularly and continue
to ride with our present bars, my level of comfort on the bike should
get better with time. I'm very willing to try that!

It's worth a try and absolute worst case outcome is that you'll know pretty much
exactly what it'll take to get a bike that fits. You might not know exactly how
to do it, but you'll know what you need from the bike.

Quoted message said:

Now, I'm not being lazy when I ask my next question. What exercises
should I do in order to increase my flexibility, specifically in the
area you are talking about? Googling brought me a host of different
types of exercises for many different purposes, but I don't want to
"waste" my time trying all kinds of different exercises. If you can
direct me to a realiable resource I would be very appreciative.

I am no expert, don't even play one on TV. Personally, I mostly get away with
just the stretching I can do on the bike, these might alarm your partner. Stand
on level pedals bend down and reach for the top tube with my nose, move other
leg forward and repeat. One pedal down and back, drop the heel, reach for the
stem with groin, reverse and repeat. Grab the back of the seat with one hand
twist the torso around and face back, reverse and repeat. Things like that. Like
I say, don't know if any of that belongs on a tandem.

Things I do know:

There are basically two kinds of stretching - one is just moving the muscles and
joints throught their existing range as we do getting out of bed or before more
vigorous exercise - the other is flexibility training which expands and
strengthens the range of effective motion and works on the same overload
principle as weightlifting with similar requirements for warm up and recovery.
You'll be doing a lot of the latter. Don't do heavy stretching on cold muscles
and joints - almost ironically light stretching's part of a good warm up.

After an easy ride is probably the best time to stretch, the muscles are warm
and loose and you'll still be feeling the ones that need the most work.

Ron