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Move Saddle Forward?

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Cycling Equipment
Published
29 November 2004
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4 December 2004
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Harry
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  1. "Harry" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have two questions:

    1) Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
    some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
    straight one would gain me only about 1".

    2) What might be the consequences of riding like this for a limited
    time, say up to 6 months?

    Harry -

    How did you get this bike in the first place ?

    I read several replies, all of which are trying to be helpful putting you in
    a good position where the three points of contact will fit you.

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it. The idea of having a
    bike is to enjoy riding it, not to do a Rube Goldberg and achieve
    theoretical goals. You're never going to enjoy time on this bike, not even
    with all the possible accommodations. Where your body is on the bike, given
    all these substitutions, is still going to be a disaster in terms of actual
    use. Maybe you could dedicate it (still doubtful) to a home trainer.

    So, AMHA, stop wasting your money on gimmicks and non-fixes. Talk to your
    personal Santa Claus (perhaps yourself) and spring for something that fits
    properly. We all would rather see you with a smile on your face, rather
    than yet another gimmick to tinker with. Really - it's about having fun.
    --
    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

    *******

    La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
    il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
    -- Einstein, A.

  2. Sandy said:

    "Harry" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have two questions:

    1) Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
    some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
    straight one would gain me only about 1".

    2) What might be the consequences of riding like this for a limited
    time, say up to 6 months?

    Harry -

    How did you get this bike in the first place ?

    I read several replies, all of which are trying to be helpful putting you in
    a good position where the three points of contact will fit you.

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it.

    Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7 with a 34"
    inseam going to find a frame that fits.

    There is no bike that's going to fit, not with anything resembling the normal
    geometry and a full size front wheel. There's just so much room between the
    wheels to draw the triangle that defines the points of contact.

    Either we tip the fellow forward into a painfully exaggerated variation of a TT
    rig, or we wrap the down tube around the front wheel and hope he doesn't crash
    out on the wheel crank interference.

    I'm suggesting handlebars with some pull back and a short stem.

    Ron

  3. Sandy said:

    Harry -

    How did you get this bike in the first place ?

    I read several replies, all of which are trying to be helpful putting
    you in a good position where the three points of contact will fit you.

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it. The idea of
    having a bike is to enjoy riding it, not to do a Rube Goldberg and
    achieve theoretical goals. You're never going to enjoy time on this
    bike, not even with all the possible accommodations. Where your body
    is on the bike, given all these substitutions, is still going to be a
    disaster in terms of actual use. Maybe you could dedicate it (still
    doubtful) to a home trainer.

    So, AMHA, stop wasting your money on gimmicks and non-fixes. Talk to
    your personal Santa Claus (perhaps yourself) and spring for something
    that fits properly. We all would rather see you with a smile on your
    face, rather than yet another gimmick to tinker with. Really - it's
    about having fun.


    The perfect answer!

  4. In article said:

    The frame is a Cannondale XLarge with a seat tube lenght of 20.1". I'm
    5'7" with a 34" inseam.

    That frame is way too big for you.

    I'm 6' even and have a 35.5" inseam (measured with the LeMond
    book-in-crotch method, for clothes its 34"😉. My bikes are all "large".
    One of my road bikes is a "large" compact with a nominal 58cm c-c seat
    tube, the others a non-compact design with a 59cm c-t seat tube.
    Both have around a 22" TT.

    These days you pick frames for the correct top tube length, then
    use a longer seat post if needed. You might fit best on a "medium"
    or possibly a "large" that's got a short TT. But an XL? No way.

    Moving the saddle forward changes your point of balance and
    as a result, puts more weight on your hands, not less.
    It's like trying to touch your toes when your back's to a wall.

    Get a new frame, and if you bought the old one from an LBS, don't
    go back there again. They shouldn't have sold something that
    fits that poorly.

    Eric

  5. Harry said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We have installed the shortest stem that the
    LBS could find, but that still hasn't helped much.

    That should have made more than a 2" difference. Most stock stems are in
    the neighborhood of 10cm, so 2" less would cut that to about a 5cm stem,
    which is available.


    I now have a 90mm long, 130 degree rise stem on a 2" stem extender on
    bike and I'm still reaching very far forward. When I slide quite far
    forward on the saddle (maybe 3 or 4"😉 I'm not stretched out as much
    and my body's angle feels much more comfortable.

    90mm is not all that short. There are shorter stems easily available.
    Sheldon Brown (Harris Cyclery) has them down to 50mm, cutting off nearly
    2 inches. Not the same rise angle, but as the length decreases, that
    matters less. BMX-type stems are also available in even shorter lengths,
    such as the Truvativ Hussefelt which is available in a 40mm length.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    If the bike fits you in terms of leg extension (and seat position), then
    if it is really 2" too short it is either a very odd frame, or you have
    unusual proportions.


    The frame is a Cannondale XLarge with a seat tube lenght of 20.1". I'm
    5'7" with a 34" inseam.

    Well, those are unusual proportions. Custom frames are really meant for
    folks like you. I still think you can find a much shorter stem, but that
    will not be ideal (though it is far better than moving the saddle that far
    forward).

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
    _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
    (_)/ (_) |

  6. <Ronsonic> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it.

    Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7 with a
    34"
    inseam going to find a frame that fits.

    Trying to be positive - you're positively wrong. Something out of a
    crackerjack box is not the limitation for buying a bike. Get fitted
    properly (which may include an inaccurate seam measurement) at a good bike
    store, where people not only tell you things, but listen to you. Go from
    there. There's lots of bikes around, lots of variations (like the
    interesting one in this thread, of trying a woman's frame).

    Putting three geometric points together with scotch tape will not make for a
    ridable machine. Center of gravity, steering response, pedal action - all
    of that and more is sub-par when gimmicking a bike as you suggest. Your
    suggestion applied to cutting wood : when you cut a board too short, try
    again !

    --
    Bonne route,

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

  7. RE/

    Quoted message said:

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it. The idea of having a
    bike is to enjoy riding it, not to do a Rube Goldberg and achieve
    theoretical goals. You're never going to enjoy time on this bike, not even
    with all the possible accommodations. Where your body is on the bike, given
    all these substitutions, is still going to be a disaster in terms of actual
    use. Maybe you could dedicate it (still doubtful) to a home trainer.

    So, AMHA, stop wasting your money on gimmicks and non-fixes. Talk to your
    personal Santa Claus (perhaps yourself) and spring for something that fits
    properly.

    I'm on the fringe of the bell curve.

    I'm not going to say how much money I've frittered away trying to make
    off-the-shelf frames fit and having frames made to what *I* thought were the
    right specs - but it *has* added up....

    At long last, somebody at SevenCycles (after declining my helpful suggestions
    for about the tenth time) passed me up the chain of command to a guy who just
    said "Trust us...." - and I did.... and it's been something of a revelation to
    ride a bike that actually fits. It's only an inch here, couple inches there,
    and a quarter inch there....but geeze, what a diff.

    In spite of the seemingly ludricous cost of a Seven frame, if I had done that on
    Day 1, I'd be ahead of the game economically. Not just a little ahead....a
    *lot* ahead.

    The advantage I percieve in getting something from an outfit like SevenCycles is
    that they're big enough and (I guess...) working on enough of a margin that they
    can afford some integrity. In plain language, they can afford to tell somebody
    like me to stick their cockamime ideas where the sun doesn't shine - instead of
    smiling and doing what I want them to do. To be sure, there's a legitimate
    niche for accomodating a user's whims....but it sure isn't with the user that's
    oddly-sized but doesn't know anything.

    OTOH, if my spouse ever finds out I spend enough on a freaking *bicycle frame*
    to feed a Somalian village for a month, she'll probably have me certified and
    committed...
    --
    PeteCresswell

  8. Harry said:

    The frame is a Cannondale XLarge with a seat tube lenght of
    20.1". I'm 5'7" with a 34" inseam.

    If those numbers are accurate, your crotch is 12" below your armpits
    and you're gonna need a custom frame.

    I think you may have gotten sold the wrong size bike to begin with-
    I'm 6'4" with a 36" cycling inseam (which is a couple of inches longer
    than my pants inseam) and I'd fit an XL frame.

    My advice would be to go back to the flat bars until you can buy a
    bike that fits properly.

  9. (Pete Cresswell) wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    OTOH, if my spouse ever finds out I spend enough on a freaking
    *bicycle frame* to feed a Somalian village for a month, she'll
    probably have me certified and committed...

    Welcome to the club!

  10. RE/

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    OTOH, if my spouse ever finds out I spend enough on a freaking
    *bicycle frame* to feed a Somalian village for a month, she'll
    probably have me certified and committed...

    Welcome to the club!

    And the really creepy part....Yesterday I caught myself thinking about ordering
    a hardtail from Seven....
    --
    PeteCresswell

  11. Quoted message said:

    OTOH, if my spouse ever finds out I spend enough on a freaking *bicycle
    frame*
    to feed a Somalian village for a month, she'll probably have me certified and
    committed...
    --
    PeteCresswell

    Could be worse..we could be decking out a bass boat or chroming out a Harley!
    Steve

  12. Sandy said:

    "Harry" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have two questions:

    1) Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
    some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
    straight one would gain me only about 1".

    2) What might be the consequences of riding like this for a limited
    time, say up to 6 months?

    Harry -

    How did you get this bike in the first place ?

    We purchased the bike from a "reputable" tandem dealer. Why do I say
    "reputable?" Imagine that you would have to travel hundreds of miles
    to find the _nearest_ bike store that had any bikes at all. And that
    the dealer (and you) know that the next closest dealer is a whole
    day's drive away. And that you don't even know anyone personally who
    rides a bike and that you haven't ever seen a bike in your city. And
    that the last time you rode a bike was some 30 years ago. And that the
    dealer's inventory of bikes that "fit" you (remember, you need to have
    the bike fit two people) is limited to a "basic" model of $2000, and
    the next one at $3500, and the next one at $5000 and so on. Oh yes, he
    even has a demo (for highly experienced tandemists only) which retails
    for $12,500.

    This particular dealer regularly goes to Interbike, is active in the
    tandem discussion groups, has a web site, has been in the business a
    couple of decades, has his own 30+ page print catalog, and often has
    his name mentioned when one asks, "Where can I go to purchase a good
    quality tandem in (fill in the blank) part of the country?" So, for a
    newbie like me he sounded like a reputable dealer. The fact that he
    sold us a bike which is a gross mismatch for us indicates that someone
    like me, with no experience, ended up with a dealer who apparently was
    more concerned about profit than the needs of his customer.

    Quoted message said:


    I read several replies, all of which are trying to be helpful putting you in
    a good position where the three points of contact will fit you.

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it. The idea of having a
    bike is to enjoy riding it, not to do a Rube Goldberg and achieve
    theoretical goals. You're never going to enjoy time on this bike, not even
    with all the possible accommodations. Where your body is on the bike, given
    all these substitutions, is still going to be a disaster in terms of actual
    use. Maybe you could dedicate it (still doubtful) to a home trainer.

    So, AMHA, stop wasting your money on gimmicks and non-fixes. Talk to your
    personal Santa Claus (perhaps yourself) and spring for something that fits
    properly. We all would rather see you with a smile on your face, rather
    than yet another gimmick to tinker with. Really - it's about having fun.

    You are absolutely correct: the bike is a terrible fit and I've
    recently realized it. However, we have spent a sizable sum of money
    (at least sizable for our modest budget) on this bike and we had
    expected that it would provide us with many years of pleasure. The
    realization that we can't make this bike work for us has been rather
    painful - and not just physically.

    At this point I'm not even sure how to progress. A custom built tandem
    will probably set us back a minimum of $4000 - and we won't even be
    able to ride one that fits prior to purchasing it! And since it would
    be a custom sized frame for a rather oddly proportioned captain, the
    resale value (if we make another mistake) would be zilch. Regardless
    of how far we're willing to travel, no one will have a tandem (or
    single bike) that we can test ride which will fit us. Hence my initial
    question about what I can do to ride this present bike as comfortably
    as possible while I try to figure out what to do.

    HarryB

  13. Sandy said:

    <Ronsonic> a écrit dans le message de :
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    But the bike is terrible for you, and you know it.

    Every bike is terrible for him. Where on earth is a guy who's 5'7 with a
    34"
    inseam going to find a frame that fits.

    Trying to be positive - you're positively wrong. Something out of a
    crackerjack box is not the limitation for buying a bike. Get fitted
    properly (which may include an inaccurate seam measurement) at a good bike
    store, where people not only tell you things, but listen to you. Go from
    there. There's lots of bikes around, lots of variations (like the
    interesting one in this thread, of trying a woman's frame).

    Putting three geometric points together with scotch tape will not make for a
    ridable machine. Center of gravity, steering response, pedal action - all
    of that and more is sub-par when gimmicking a bike as you suggest. Your
    suggestion applied to cutting wood : when you cut a board too short, try
    again !

    What the hell are you talking about, I'm NOT the one telling him to turn his
    stem or seat post around or move the seat another two inches forward. Next it is
    a tandem and those are more limited in options than a regular bike.

    The guy's got drop bars on a stem extender and wants to move his seat two inches
    up and you accuse me of gimmicking this mess.

    I'm saying that first he should change the bars to something more suitable in
    reach and drop, trekking bars answer that. And go to a shorter stem.

    That doesn't sound all that radical.

    Ron

  14. Harry says...

    Quoted message said:

    You are absolutely correct: the bike is a terrible fit and I've
    recently realized it. However, we have spent a sizable sum of money
    (at least sizable for our modest budget) on this bike and we had
    expected that it would provide us with many years of pleasure. The
    realization that we can't make this bike work for us has been rather
    painful - and not just physically.

    At this point I'm not even sure how to progress. A custom built tandem
    will probably set us back a minimum of $4000 - and we won't even be
    able to ride one that fits prior to purchasing it! And since it would
    be a custom sized frame for a rather oddly proportioned captain, the
    resale value (if we make another mistake) would be zilch. Regardless
    of how far we're willing to travel, no one will have a tandem (or
    single bike) that we can test ride which will fit us. Hence my initial
    question about what I can do to ride this present bike as comfortably
    as possible while I try to figure out what to do.

    HarryB

    I think the first thing you should do is talk with this dealer and tell
    him of your dissatisfaction. If he has any class at all, I would think
    he would work something out with you. I would recommend making your
    complaints firmly, but avoid angry outbursts, threats and other
    destructive behavior. Tell him you want to trade the bike he talked you
    into for one that fits. If he has to order one, then so be it. A
    complaint to the BBB wouldn't be out of line either if he refuses to
    work with you. Of course, I haven't heard both sides of the story. If
    you went into the store with a devil-may-care attitude about fit, then
    maybe some of the blame is yours. When did you learn that the bike was
    an XL? If you knew at the time of purchase, I would think this would be
    a red flag, considering you are 5'7". I think you should forget about
    custom frames. 5'7" is an average height. You shouldn't have any problem
    adapting a production frame to fit you. That's why we have stems of
    every length, adjustable saddles, etc.

    Again, I think the dealer should work with you to make you happy. If you
    have to take some kind of loss to get something useable, then it will be
    better for you if the dealer meets you halfway instead of trying to sell
    the bike and start over. Take heart in one thing: bad purchases come
    with the territory. I've got boxes of stuff I don't use.

  15. (Pete Cresswell) says...

    Quoted message said:

    And the really creepy part....Yesterday I caught myself thinking about ordering
    a hardtail from Seven....

    What about your two or three Rohloff hubs? Now those are some luxury
    purchases.

  16. Harry said:


    The frame is a Cannondale XLarge with a seat tube lenght of 20.1". I'm
    5'7" with a 34" inseam.

    That's really all I needed to see... the frame is simply too large for
    you. You'll be much, much better off with a frame that fits.

    You DO have longish legs for your height, which could make it somewhat
    more difficult to find a good fit - but almost anything will be a
    great improvement.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame

  17. Peter Cole said:

    "Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have two questions:

    1) Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
    some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
    straight one would gain me only about 1".

    http://www.trisports.com/proftomfasfo.html

    Quoted message said:

    2) What might be the consequences of riding like this for a limited
    time, say up to 6 months?

    Not a problem, especially on a tandem.

    Except for the fact that the seat post supports the stoker's stem -
    and if it's got a humongous bend in the middle, the stoker's stem
    might not have room to mount (and would certainly be very limited in
    terms of adjustability).

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame

  18. On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:16:43 GMT, Super Slinky <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Harry says...

    Quoted message said:

    You are absolutely correct: the bike is a terrible fit and I've
    recently realized it. However, we have spent a sizable sum of money
    (at least sizable for our modest budget) on this bike and we had
    expected that it would provide us with many years of pleasure. The
    realization that we can't make this bike work for us has been rather
    painful - and not just physically.

    At this point I'm not even sure how to progress. A custom built tandem
    will probably set us back a minimum of $4000 - and we won't even be
    able to ride one that fits prior to purchasing it! And since it would
    be a custom sized frame for a rather oddly proportioned captain, the
    resale value (if we make another mistake) would be zilch. Regardless
    of how far we're willing to travel, no one will have a tandem (or
    single bike) that we can test ride which will fit us. Hence my initial
    question about what I can do to ride this present bike as comfortably
    as possible while I try to figure out what to do.

    HarryB

    I think the first thing you should do is talk with this dealer and tell
    him of your dissatisfaction. If he has any class at all, I would think
    he would work something out with you. I would recommend making your
    complaints firmly, but avoid angry outbursts, threats and other
    destructive behavior. Tell him you want to trade the bike he talked you
    into for one that fits. If he has to order one, then so be it. A
    complaint to the BBB wouldn't be out of line either if he refuses to
    work with you. Of course, I haven't heard both sides of the story. If
    you went into the store with a devil-may-care attitude about fit, then
    maybe some of the blame is yours. When did you learn that the bike was
    an XL? If you knew at the time of purchase, I would think this would be
    a red flag, considering you are 5'7". I think you should forget about
    custom frames. 5'7" is an average height. You shouldn't have any problem
    adapting a production frame to fit you. That's why we have stems of
    every length, adjustable saddles, etc.

    Again, I think the dealer should work with you to make you happy. If you
    have to take some kind of loss to get something useable, then it will be
    better for you if the dealer meets you halfway instead of trying to sell
    the bike and start over. Take heart in one thing: bad purchases come
    with the territory. I've got boxes of stuff I don't use.

    I doubt that this dealer has any class even though he seems to be a
    very nice person. I've learned through the tandem grapevine that he
    has sold mismatched bikes to other couples as well. Now, I don't know
    that for a fact, but I will be doing some research to see if I can
    discover if that is true.

    My primary goal at this time is to figure out what to do next. Since
    he is the nearest tandem dealer (and he's about a 2 hour drive away)
    where we can take a test ride of some bikes, I don't want to burn any
    bridges, yet. However, I have considered the options you mentioned.

    Although "buyer beware" is always true, I don't think there is much
    blame to be laid at my feet. He's considered to be a reputable dealer
    in the tandem "community" and so I trusted his judgment. He did say
    that I had long legs for my height and that is the reason I "needed"
    an XLarge frame. The standover height is fine - the stoker's size is
    small which necessitates a top tube that slopes down quite a bit. How
    would one expect a total newbie to the bike fitting world to know
    about top tube lenghts? Not a single sizing chart I saw for tandems
    mentioned anything about top tube lenghts. Although I did feel
    stretched out, he said that was normal since I hadn't ridden a bike in
    30 years and that my muscles would adjust with time.

    At this time most of the sentiment I've received indicates that no
    production frame will meet my needs. I realize that we all make
    occasional bad purchases, but the cost of a custom tandem frame is
    quite substantial, so I'm not able to take too much comfort from that.

    HarryB

  19. "Eric Murray" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    Moving the saddle forward changes your point of balance and
    as a result, puts more weight on your hands, not less.
    It's like trying to touch your toes when your back's to a wall.

    I don't think this is true. Moving the saddle forward will give him a
    normal effective TT length, which will give him a normal weight
    distribution (between saddle & h-bars). He will have a relatively steep
    effective seattube angle, but I don't think this will necessarily be
    uncomfortable, his hips will just be a bit more open.

  20. Harry said:

    Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
    some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
    straight one would gain me only about 1".

    You might want to try a combination of a zero offset seat post, moving
    the saddle rails all the way forward, and switching to a 50mm stem
    extension.

    Quoted message said:

    I recently changed my flat mountain type handlebars to road bars in
    order to give myself additional hand positions. Although the hand
    positions on the new road bars feel great, it feels like my upper body
    is stretched out on an inquisition rack. After taking my bike to the
    LBS (not the dealer who sold me the bike) I discovered that my top
    tube is probably some 2" too long. We have installed the shortest stem
    that the LBS could find, but that still hasn't helped much.

    It's difficult to troubleshoot this without seeing you on the bike.
    Were you reasonably comfortable with the straight bars? While not an
    optimal solution, you might want to consider going back to that type
    setup.

    Quoted message said:

    At this point it appears I may need a custom frame. What makes this
    time consuming (and expensive) is that I ride a tandem. I would like
    to try to continue to ride with the road bars, but the long stretch is
    just too tiring to ride more that a couple of hours at a time.

    Going from a straight bar to drops is always going to take some time
    to adapt to. It's hard to tell how much of your discomfort is due to
    bike fit and how much to getting used to drop bars.

    We need a few data points. What is the vertical distance from the top
    of the saddle to the top of the bars? And (I hate to bring up this old
    saw but) if you place your elbow against the nose of the saddle, how
    much distance is there from your fingertips to the back of the bars?
    What is the horizontal extension of your stem?

    At 5'7" and 34" inseam, you do have unusual proportions. Instead of a
    custom tandem, you could choose a bike based on top tube length. The
    seat tube will then be shorter than optimal, but a long seat post will
    take care of that. At least with a stock bike, you can test ride it
    before buying.

    You haven't mentioned your wife's size. If she is tall that might
    complicate matters on a tandem.

    Art Harris

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