Move Saddle Forward?

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Except for the fact that the seat post supports the stoker's stem -
and if it's got a humongous bend in the middle, the stoker's stem
might not have room to mount (and would certainly be very limited in
terms of adjustability).

Sure, but the stoker has other options in terms of bar selection, etc., as
long as there's room to get the stem on. It may not provide the ideal
setup, but it's a $70 (potential) solution.

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Except for the fact that the seat post supports the stoker's stem -
and if it's got a humongous bend in the middle, the stoker's stem
might not have room to mount (and would certainly be very limited in
terms of adjustability).

Sure, but the stoker has other options in terms of bar selection, etc., as
long as there's room to get the stem on. It may not provide the ideal
setup, but it's a $70 (potential) solution.

Stoker stem clamps (the one for the captain's seat post) tend to be
pretty tall - 60-70mm minimum. As tall as the frame is, I doubt very
much that there will be enough room between the tandem's front seat
tube and the bend in the seat post. It would require 160-170mm of
exposed seat post - add that to his already very tall frame and I
think it's unlikely that'll work.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Except for the fact that the seat post supports the stoker's stem -
and if it's got a humongous bend in the middle, the stoker's stem
might not have room to mount (and would certainly be very limited in
terms of adjustability).

Sure, but the stoker has other options in terms of bar selection, etc.,

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

long as there's room to get the stem on. It may not provide the ideal
setup, but it's a $70 (potential) solution.

Stoker stem clamps (the one for the captain's seat post) tend to be
pretty tall - 60-70mm minimum. As tall as the frame is, I doubt very
much that there will be enough room between the tandem's front seat
tube and the bend in the seat post. It would require 160-170mm of
exposed seat post - add that to his already very tall frame and I
think it's unlikely that'll work.

It might. The OP said he had 34 inseam, 20.5 seattube (IIRC), with 170mm
cranks, I think he'd have 160-170mm of exposed seatpost. If it didn't quite
work, he could go custom seatpost/stem for a lot less than custom frame.
I'm guessing he was sold a MTB tandem by a guy who wasn't real familiar
with MTB sizing.

Peter Cole said:

I don't think this is true. Moving the saddle forward will give him a
normal effective TT length, which will give him a normal weight
distribution (between saddle & h-bars). He will have a relatively steep
effective seattube angle, but I don't think this will necessarily be
uncomfortable, his hips will just be a bit more open.

I think that moving a modern, racing type saddle forward will only
have the rider sitting further back or over the back of the seat. His
reach to the bars will not change.

Antti Salonen said:

I'm 5'7" with 30" inseam, and according to some statistics I've seen I'm
very close to average proportions. So, with 34" inseam you have very
long legs and a short torso, so it's not surprising that you have reach
issues.

Your inseam measured to the floor is likely 32=33".

RE/

Quoted message said:

What about your two or three Rohloff hubs? Now those are some luxury
purchases.

"Only" two.....

And after riding Rohloff for a couple years they've moved from 'Luxury' to
something just short of 'Necessity'..-)
--
PeteCresswell

Paul Kopit said:

I wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm 5'7" with 30" inseam, and according to some statistics I've seen I'm
very close to average proportions. So, with 34" inseam you have very
long legs and a short torso, so it's not surprising that you have reach
issues.

Quoted message said:

Your inseam measured to the floor is likely 32=33".

It's not, as I was talking about the distance from the floor to the
scrotch. However, it looks like I remember the value in inches in
correctly, as it was 78 cm (30.7 inches).

-as

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote
>
> Except for the fact that the seat post supports the stoker's stem -
> and if it's got a humongous bend in the middle, the stoker's stem
> might not have room to mount (and would certainly be very limited in
> terms of adjustability).

Sure, but the stoker has other options in terms of bar selection, etc.,

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

long as there's room to get the stem on. It may not provide the ideal
setup, but it's a $70 (potential) solution.

Stoker stem clamps (the one for the captain's seat post) tend to be
pretty tall - 60-70mm minimum. As tall as the frame is, I doubt very
much that there will be enough room between the tandem's front seat
tube and the bend in the seat post. It would require 160-170mm of
exposed seat post - add that to his already very tall frame and I
think it's unlikely that'll work.

It might. The OP said he had 34 inseam, 20.5 seattube (IIRC), with 170mm
cranks, I think he'd have 160-170mm of exposed seatpost. If it didn't quite
work, he could go custom seatpost/stem for a lot less than custom frame.
I'm guessing he was sold a MTB tandem by a guy who wasn't real familiar
with MTB sizing.

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

Yes, it is a mountain bike and I haven't completely decided what to
think of a person who has been in the tandem selling business 20+
years and ends up selling me such a mismatched bike.

(Art Harris) said:

Harry said:

Is there a seatpost that would enable me to move my saddle forward
some 3"? My present seatpost has a slight setback and changing to a
straight one would gain me only about 1".

You might want to try a combination of a zero offset seat post, moving
the saddle rails all the way forward, and switching to a 50mm stem
extension.

Quoted message said:

I recently changed my flat mountain type handlebars to road bars in
order to give myself additional hand positions. Although the hand
positions on the new road bars feel great, it feels like my upper body
is stretched out on an inquisition rack. After taking my bike to the
LBS (not the dealer who sold me the bike) I discovered that my top
tube is probably some 2" too long. We have installed the shortest stem
that the LBS could find, but that still hasn't helped much.

It's difficult to troubleshoot this without seeing you on the bike.
Were you reasonably comfortable with the straight bars? While not an
optimal solution, you might want to consider going back to that type
setup.

I was not very comfortable with the straight bars. I had tried a
couple of different solutions including a different type of handlebar
(brahma) and bar ends. Although they gave me additional hand
positions, they still didn't feel right. I might have to go back to
the straight bar or ride mainly on the upright part of the drop bar
until I can get all of this sorted out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At this point it appears I may need a custom frame. What makes this
time consuming (and expensive) is that I ride a tandem. I would like
to try to continue to ride with the road bars, but the long stretch is
just too tiring to ride more that a couple of hours at a time.

Going from a straight bar to drops is always going to take some time
to adapt to. It's hard to tell how much of your discomfort is due to
bike fit and how much to getting used to drop bars.

When I'm riding with the new drop bars and slide forward about 3 or 4"
on the saddle (whew is that uncomfortable on the butt!) I find the
position of my arms and back to much more comfortable than with the
straight bars.

Quoted message said:

We need a few data points. What is the vertical distance from the top
of the saddle to the top of the bars? And (I hate to bring up this old
saw but) if you place your elbow against the nose of the saddle, how
much distance is there from your fingertips to the back of the bars?
What is the horizontal extension of your stem?

The top of the handlebars are level with the top of the saddle.

There is a distance of about 1/2" between the end of my finger tips
and the handle bar when I place my elbow against the nose of the
saddle.

The horizontal extension of the stem is ~1 3/4" (45mm) as measured
from the center of the handlebar to the center of the stem where it
clamps onto the steerer tube.

Quoted message said:

At 5'7" and 34" inseam, you do have unusual proportions. Instead of a
custom tandem, you could choose a bike based on top tube length. The
seat tube will then be shorter than optimal, but a long seat post will
take care of that. At least with a stock bike, you can test ride it
before buying.

I had been thinking about that. But wouldn't a long seat post move the
saddle back too far? Or wouldn't it move it back far enough for that
to be a factor? I've been reading Keith Bontrager's alternative method
of bike fitting ( http://www.bontrager.com/keith/rants.asp?id=12 ) to
help me understand some of the problems I'm encountering.

Quoted message said:

You haven't mentioned your wife's size. If she is tall that might
complicate matters on a tandem.

She is 2" shorter than me with a much shorter inseam, so I don't
forsee a problem there.

Quoted message said:

Art Harris

Harry said:

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stoker stem clamps (the one for the captain's seat post) tend to be
pretty tall - 60-70mm minimum. As tall as the frame is, I doubt very
much that there will be enough room between the tandem's front seat
tube and the bend in the seat post. It would require 160-170mm of
exposed seat post - add that to his already very tall frame and I
think it's unlikely that'll work.

It might. The OP said he had 34 inseam, 20.5 seattube (IIRC), with 170mm
cranks, I think he'd have 160-170mm of exposed seatpost. If it didn't quite
work, he could go custom seatpost/stem for a lot less than custom frame.
I'm guessing he was sold a MTB tandem by a guy who wasn't real familiar
with MTB sizing.

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

You'll need to find one with a LOT of rise. That could be a problem
since every one I've seen lately has a similar amount of rise. I
suppose you could always install one upside down on the "bent part" of
the seat post... though I can't imagine how funny it would look (and
it would also put a LOT of stress on the seat post above the point of
obvious failure-waiting-to-happen).

Quoted message said:

Yes, it is a mountain bike and I haven't completely decided what to
think of a person who has been in the tandem selling business 20+
years and ends up selling me such a mismatched bike.

Y'see, you're going about this all wrong. All you REALLY need to do
is to get a new significant other who's a lot bigger than you. Toss
'em on the front, move to the back of the bike, and you'll fit fine.
Problem solved! ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Harry says...

Quoted message said:

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

I think Titus does that, made from titanium. You may not like the price.
www.titusti.com

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:08:37 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Harry <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Stoker stem clamps (the one for the captain's seat post) tend to be
> pretty tall - 60-70mm minimum. As tall as the frame is, I doubt very
> much that there will be enough room between the tandem's front seat
> tube and the bend in the seat post. It would require 160-170mm of
> exposed seat post - add that to his already very tall frame and I
> think it's unlikely that'll work.

It might. The OP said he had 34 inseam, 20.5 seattube (IIRC), with 170mm
cranks, I think he'd have 160-170mm of exposed seatpost. If it didn't quite
work, he could go custom seatpost/stem for a lot less than custom frame.
I'm guessing he was sold a MTB tandem by a guy who wasn't real familiar
with MTB sizing.

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

You'll need to find one with a LOT of rise. That could be a problem
since every one I've seen lately has a similar amount of rise. I
suppose you could always install one upside down on the "bent part" of
the seat post... though I can't imagine how funny it would look (and
it would also put a LOT of stress on the seat post above the point of
obvious failure-waiting-to-happen).

Quoted message said:

Yes, it is a mountain bike and I haven't completely decided what to
think of a person who has been in the tandem selling business 20+
years and ends up selling me such a mismatched bike.

Y'see, you're going about this all wrong. All you REALLY need to do
is to get a new significant other who's a lot bigger than you. Toss
'em on the front, move to the back of the bike, and you'll fit fine.
Problem solved! ;-)

<GULP> Ok, time to start a new thread. How about: "How do I dump the
woman I've been happily married to for 31 years in favor of a big
burly female captain?"
And which n/g might be most appropriate for this?

Cheers,
HarryB

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Harry said:

Art Harris wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We need a few data points. What is the vertical distance from the top
of the saddle to the top of the bars? And (I hate to bring up this old
saw but) if you place your elbow against the nose of the saddle, how
much distance is there from your fingertips to the back of the bars?
What is the horizontal extension of your stem?

Quoted message said:

The top of the handlebars are level with the top of the saddle.

Good.

Quoted message said:

There is a distance of about 1/2" between the end of my finger tips
and the handle bar when I place my elbow against the nose of the
saddle.

That sounds pretty normal. The elbow/fingertips thing is something of
an old wive's tale, but I was expecting you to say the gap was ~2
inches. Granted, long arms and a short torso will skew the results
with this method.

Do you ride mostly with your hands on the brake hoods (as most people
do these days)? Would you say your overall flexibility is good, fair,
or poor? Can you touch your toes (I can't). From what you say above,
your fit doesn't sound particularly bad. Re-positioning the brake
levers slightly higher on the bars, or tilting the bars ever so
slightly upward (so the bottom part points slightly downward) might
help.

Quoted message said:

The horizontal extension of the stem is ~1 3/4" (45mm) as measured
from the center of the handlebar to the center of the stem where it
clamps onto the steerer tube.

OK, that's about as little as you can get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At 5'7" and 34" inseam, you do have unusual proportions. Instead of a
custom tandem, you could choose a bike based on top tube length. The
seat tube will then be shorter than optimal, but a long seat post will
take care of that. At least with a stock bike, you can test ride it
before buying.

Quoted message said:

I had been thinking about that. But wouldn't a long seat post move the
saddle back too far?

A long seat post would be no different than a "normal" length seat
tube. A steeper seat tube angle would move you further forward, but
folks with proportionally long femurs (thigh bones) generally go for a
slack seat tube angle.

I wouldn't give up on this bike yet. It's not optimum, but I think
you're close to a reasonable fit.

Art Harris

"Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

I'm assuming that the stoker's bars are flat. If that's the case, you can
compensate for the low stem height by using riser bars.

Quoted message said:

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

Why don't you try Google'ing for it? Here's one I got in 3 sec:

<http://www.cobr.co.uk/acatalog/e_cobr_Online_Shop_Custom_Made_Stoker_Stem_
4926.html>

Harry said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Y'see, you're going about this all wrong. All you REALLY need to do
is to get a new significant other who's a lot bigger than you. Toss
'em on the front, move to the back of the bike, and you'll fit fine.
Problem solved! ;-)

<GULP> Ok, time to start a new thread. How about: "How do I dump the
woman I've been happily married to for 31 years in favor of a big
burly female captain?"
And which n/g might be most appropriate for this?

I'd rely on the personals. You can search on the term "dominance" and
"leather" and probably find an appropriate match. My sympathies to
your wife and all, but bike fit is VERY important!

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Peter Cole said:

"Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

I'm assuming that the stoker's bars are flat. If that's the case, you can
compensate for the low stem height by using riser bars.

Quoted message said:

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

Why don't you try Google'ing for it? Here's one I got in 3 sec:

<http://www.cobr.co.uk/acatalog/e_cobr_Online_Shop_Custom_Made_Stoker_Stem_
4926.html>

I misunderstood. I thought you meant a custom made seatpost/stoker
stem _combination_. If I were to get a seatpost with a forward bend
and the stoker stem would be attached above the bend, it would have to
be custom made that way since one can't slide the stoker's stem over
the bend from the bottom nor can one slide it down from the top. I
didn't discover anything like that when I Googled for that type of
combination.
HarryB

"Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

>
Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

I'm assuming that the stoker's bars are flat. If that's the case, you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

compensate for the low stem height by using riser bars.

Quoted message said:

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

Why don't you try Google'ing for it? Here's one I got in 3 sec:

<http://www.cobr.co.uk/acatalog/e_cobr_Online_Shop_Custom_Made_Stoker_Stem

_

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4926.html>

I misunderstood. I thought you meant a custom made seatpost/stoker
stem _combination_. If I were to get a seatpost with a forward bend
and the stoker stem would be attached above the bend, it would have to
be custom made that way since one can't slide the stoker's stem over
the bend from the bottom nor can one slide it down from the top. I
didn't discover anything like that when I Googled for that type of
combination.

No, but you can get a custom stoker stem made with a specific angle and
length (or telescoping). You say you'd have enough room below the bend to
fit the stem, so order a stem to put the bars where you want.

(Art Harris) said:

Harry said:

Art Harris wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We need a few data points. What is the vertical distance from the top
of the saddle to the top of the bars? And (I hate to bring up this old
saw but) if you place your elbow against the nose of the saddle, how
much distance is there from your fingertips to the back of the bars?
What is the horizontal extension of your stem?

Quoted message said:

The top of the handlebars are level with the top of the saddle.

Good.

Quoted message said:

There is a distance of about 1/2" between the end of my finger tips
and the handle bar when I place my elbow against the nose of the
saddle.

That sounds pretty normal. The elbow/fingertips thing is something of
an old wive's tale, but I was expecting you to say the gap was ~2
inches. Granted, long arms and a short torso will skew the results
with this method.

Do you ride mostly with your hands on the brake hoods (as most people
do these days)?

We have only ridden twice (total about 50 miles) with this new drop
bar, but yes, that seems to be a comfortable place for my hands.

Quoted message said:

Would you say your overall flexibility is good, fair,
or poor? Can you touch your toes (I can't).

No, I can't even come close to touching my toes. With my feet about a
foot apart, the closest I can come to the ground with my fingers
outstretched is about 7 1/2"

Quoted message said:

From what you say above,
your fit doesn't sound particularly bad. Re-positioning the brake
levers slightly higher on the bars,

If I move them even a little bit higher I can't reach the levers very
well when I'm on the drops.

Quoted message said:

or tilting the bars ever so
slightly upward (so the bottom part points slightly downward) might
help.

I did try that and it seemed to [censored] my wrist in an awkward manner. I
have to be careful with my wrists since I've had trouble with carpal
tunnel syndrome, but if I'm careful I can usually minimize the pain
and numbness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The horizontal extension of the stem is ~1 3/4" (45mm) as measured
from the center of the handlebar to the center of the stem where it
clamps onto the steerer tube.

OK, that's about as little as you can get.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At 5'7" and 34" inseam, you do have unusual proportions. Instead of a
custom tandem, you could choose a bike based on top tube length. The
seat tube will then be shorter than optimal, but a long seat post will
take care of that. At least with a stock bike, you can test ride it
before buying.

Quoted message said:

I had been thinking about that. But wouldn't a long seat post move the
saddle back too far?

A long seat post would be no different than a "normal" length seat
tube. A steeper seat tube angle would move you further forward, but
folks with proportionally long femurs (thigh bones) generally go for a
slack seat tube angle.

I wouldn't give up on this bike yet. It's not optimum, but I think
you're close to a reasonable fit.

Hmm, that sounds encouraging. My LBS said it was pretty much hopeless
and most of the information I've received in this thread leans that
way as well.

Quoted message said:

Art Harris

HarryB

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:25:41 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Harry" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

>
Yes, the distance from the clamp to the bottom of the saddle is 160mm.
Indeed, the problem that I see with a seatpost that bends forward is
that since I can't get the stoker's stem over the bend, and assuming
that there is enough room between the top tube and the bend for the
stoker's stem, it would put the stoker's handlebars too low.

I'm assuming that the stoker's bars are flat. If that's the case, you can
compensate for the low stem height by using riser bars.

Quoted message said:

Whom could I contact for a custom made seatpost/stoker stem?

Why don't you try Google'ing for it? Here's one I got in 3 sec:

<http://www.cobr.co.uk/acatalog/e_cobr_Online_Shop_Custom_Made_Stoker_Stem_
4926.html>

I misunderstood. I thought you meant a custom made seatpost/stoker
stem _combination_. If I were to get a seatpost with a forward bend
and the stoker stem would be attached above the bend, it would have to
be custom made that way since one can't slide the stoker's stem over
the bend from the bottom nor can one slide it down from the top. I
didn't discover anything like that when I Googled for that type of
combination.
HarryB

Or the same place that makes ordinary stoker stems might be willing to
make one with a split seat post clamp (two pinch bolts?) that could be
closed on the seat post above the bend.

Maybe something similar to this seat post rack:
http://www.hastingscycles.co.uk/acatalog/pprack.jpg

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:49 -0600, Harry <[email hidden]> wrote:

Harry,

You've only got 50 miles on the drop bars, that are set a forearm length away
from the saddle at saddle height and you have poor flexibility, the problem is
NOT the bike.

A road bike proprly setup with drop bars should feel stretched out for anyone
not acclimated to it.

The bike may not be perfect for you, but it sure as hell isn't the monstrosity
of fraudulent fitting that you have suggested. But you "feel like you're
stretched on the rack" riding in the hooks? That's the way EVERYBODY feels when
they start with these things. Most people don't even reach for the hooks for the
first couple hundred miles or so.

Do the work and the bike will fit better. Put in enough miles to know what
you're talking about then tell us if the dealer abused your trust.

Maybe, as I've suggested before, you should try some trekking bars for the hand
positions. You just don't seem to want dropped bars or at least don't want what
they mean in terms of position and the demands that makes on flexibility and
condition.

Ron