Mountain Bikers SILENT about Environmental Destruction in Their Backyard!



M

Mike Vandeman

Guest
Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
areas where they want to ride.

Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.

Mike


News Release #1. May 7, 2006
Eagleridge Environmental Stewardship Alliance (EESA)

Biologists Concerned Over Highway Impact on Eagleridge Bluffs/Larsen
Creek Wetland

BC Ministry of Transportation’s 2004 decision to proceed with a
Highway 99 overland route through Eagleridge Bluffs and traverse
Larsen Creek wetlands continues to draw strong opposition. In a May 7
2006 News Release North Shore registered biologists Jim Cuthbert and
Fred Sverre announced establishment of the Eagleridge Environmental
Stewardship Alliance (EESA), an independent organization of biologists
and supporters extremely concerned over imminent threats to the
ecological integrity of Eagleridge Bluffs and Larsen Creek wetlands
and the adjacent towering coniferous forest.

EESA is a non-partisan team offering independent science-based comment
to government, the public and the media. At issue is the inevitable
loss of biodiversity at the Eagleridge Bluffs and Larsen Creek
wetlands if highway construction proceeds through these sensitive
ecosystems.

Also of concern is the content of the August 2003 Environmental
Assessment currently being used to justify the 2004 selection by the
Province of an overland route for Highway 99 to bypass Horseshoe Bay.
A June 2004 federal Environmental Certificate based on the 2003
Assessment allows for construction of the overland route.

EESA provided the following facts in support of a review of the 2003
Environmental Assessment and the decision to proceed with the overland
route while rejecting the alternative options to build a tunnel or
widen the existing highway above Horseshoe Bay:

The 2003 Environmental Assessment did not include wildlife and plant
studies during all seasons resulting in seasonal plants and animals
not being recorded.
The Assessment did not identify the endangered blue-listed Northern
Red-legged Frog (Ranus aurora aurora) as present in the Larsen Creek
wetlands. Occurrence of this species in the wetlands area was
confirmed by District of West Vancouver staff in June 2005.
The Assessment did not address the issue of blow down following tree
removal and land clearing.
The overland route intersects with habitat supporting the endangered
blue-listed Howell’s Violet (Viola howellii Gray) and the regionally
rare Hairy Manzanita (Arctostaphylos columiana).
The overland route traverses habitat of the blue-listed Western
Screech Owl (Otus kennicottii).
Eagleridge Bluffs contain preferred habitat for the rare Rubber Boa
(Charina bottae bottae) snake although the 2003 Environmental
Assessment includes no mention of this species.
The overland route intersects with an open water component of the
Larsen Creek wetlands which are know for their biodiversity. The
Larsen Creek wetlands is a highly valuable undisturbed
fully-functioning ecosystem that should remain intact. To the best of
EESA’s knowledge, this very deep elevated bog is one of very few
intact bogs of its kind in the Lower Mainland. Similar sites at Burns
Bog and UBC Endowment Lands have received protection as a provincial
protected area and ecological reserve respectively.
The Larsen Creek bog is very old, dating back to a period following
the last glaciation. Within its depths it records the ecological
development and climatic patterns of the Lower Mainland by preserving
ancient plant remnants such as pollen and spores in the anaerobic
sediments.
The bog acts as a history book for scientists by revealing how local
plant communities developed over the last many millions of years.
Preserving this natural record of the region’s vegetative development
and climate is most worthwhile and will become more valuable as time
progresses. Understanding the past is critical to accurate
predictions for the future.
Highway construction through the bog may trigger deleterious
downstream impacts on Larsen Creek fish, plankton, insects and other
invertebrates.
The overland route intersects with stands of towering western-red
cedar and Douglas fir
trees as large as 15 feet in circumference.
Proceeding with the overland route will destroy portions of the rare
and sensitive Coastal Bluff Arbutus Dry Subzone of the Coastal
Western Hemlock biogeoclimatic zone. This Eagleridge Bluff
broad-leaved arbutus stand is one of the rarest forest ecosystem in BC
and does not occur elsewhere in Canada. The unique dry arbutus habitat
of the Coastal Bluff Arbutus Dry Subzone supports rare vegetation
associations and occurs nowhere else on the Lower Mainland. This plant
community can be easily damaged since the thick moss and lichen have
no firm attachment to the rocky bluffs. Of 22 regionally rare plants
in the Lower Mainland, 13 are found in the Eagleridge Bluffs area.
The lower reaches of Larsen Creek support populations of salmon and
trout and should be afforded the protection provided by legislation.
This includes a protective buffer setback from the top of the east
bank. The Black Mountain Trail follows this top of east bank before
intersecting with the Baden Powell Trail near the Larsen Creek
Wetlands. On site survey markers delineating clearing and grubbing for
the proposed construction of a logging road over the existing trail
show no provision for the buffer.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
> areas where they want to ride.
>
> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>
> Mike
>

We don't have time, we're to busy saving all the whales and spotted owls
that hang around our trails
 
di wrote:
> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
>> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development.
>> But the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE
>> ACCESS in areas where they want to ride.
>>
>> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
>> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>>
>> Mike
>>

> We don't have time, we're to busy saving all the whales and spotted
> owls that hang around our trails


Yeah I saved a ivorybill woodpecker chick from getting stepped on by a hiker
just the other day.

Mike


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
 
You can't even copy and paste the right article to support your current
rant!

You start out asking us to alert the Olympic Committee of an impending
disaster if they (presumably make mountain biking an Olympic Sport), then
follow up with an article about a new highway. It is my humble opinion that
mountain biking and road building do not present the same environmental
concerns. These are to transportation what the Queen Mary and a jet ski are
to boating.





"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
> areas where they want to ride.
>
> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>
> Mike
>
>
> News Release #1. May 7, 2006
> Eagleridge Environmental Stewardship Alliance (EESA)
>
> Biologists Concerned Over Highway Impact on Eagleridge Bluffs/Larsen
> Creek Wetland
>
> BC Ministry of Transportation's 2004 decision to proceed with a
> Highway 99 overland route through Eagleridge Bluffs and traverse
> Larsen Creek wetlands continues to draw strong opposition. In a May 7
> 2006 News Release North Shore registered biologists Jim Cuthbert and
> Fred Sverre announced establishment of the Eagleridge Environmental
> Stewardship Alliance (EESA), an independent organization of biologists
> and supporters extremely concerned over imminent threats to the
> ecological integrity of Eagleridge Bluffs and Larsen Creek wetlands
> and the adjacent towering coniferous forest.
>
> EESA is a non-partisan team offering independent science-based comment
> to government, the public and the media. At issue is the inevitable
> loss of biodiversity at the Eagleridge Bluffs and Larsen Creek
> wetlands if highway construction proceeds through these sensitive
> ecosystems.
>
> Also of concern is the content of the August 2003 Environmental
> Assessment currently being used to justify the 2004 selection by the
> Province of an overland route for Highway 99 to bypass Horseshoe Bay.
> A June 2004 federal Environmental Certificate based on the 2003
> Assessment allows for construction of the overland route.
>
> EESA provided the following facts in support of a review of the 2003
> Environmental Assessment and the decision to proceed with the overland
> route while rejecting the alternative options to build a tunnel or
> widen the existing highway above Horseshoe Bay:
>
> The 2003 Environmental Assessment did not include wildlife and plant
> studies during all seasons resulting in seasonal plants and animals
> not being recorded.
> The Assessment did not identify the endangered blue-listed Northern
> Red-legged Frog (Ranus aurora aurora) as present in the Larsen Creek
> wetlands. Occurrence of this species in the wetlands area was
> confirmed by District of West Vancouver staff in June 2005.
> The Assessment did not address the issue of blow down following tree
> removal and land clearing.
> The overland route intersects with habitat supporting the endangered
> blue-listed Howell's Violet (Viola howellii Gray) and the regionally
> rare Hairy Manzanita (Arctostaphylos columiana).
> The overland route traverses habitat of the blue-listed Western
> Screech Owl (Otus kennicottii).
> Eagleridge Bluffs contain preferred habitat for the rare Rubber Boa
> (Charina bottae bottae) snake although the 2003 Environmental
> Assessment includes no mention of this species.
> The overland route intersects with an open water component of the
> Larsen Creek wetlands which are know for their biodiversity. The
> Larsen Creek wetlands is a highly valuable undisturbed
> fully-functioning ecosystem that should remain intact. To the best of
> EESA's knowledge, this very deep elevated bog is one of very few
> intact bogs of its kind in the Lower Mainland. Similar sites at Burns
> Bog and UBC Endowment Lands have received protection as a provincial
> protected area and ecological reserve respectively.
> The Larsen Creek bog is very old, dating back to a period following
> the last glaciation. Within its depths it records the ecological
> development and climatic patterns of the Lower Mainland by preserving
> ancient plant remnants such as pollen and spores in the anaerobic
> sediments.
> The bog acts as a history book for scientists by revealing how local
> plant communities developed over the last many millions of years.
> Preserving this natural record of the region's vegetative development
> and climate is most worthwhile and will become more valuable as time
> progresses. Understanding the past is critical to accurate
> predictions for the future.
> Highway construction through the bog may trigger deleterious
> downstream impacts on Larsen Creek fish, plankton, insects and other
> invertebrates.
> The overland route intersects with stands of towering western-red
> cedar and Douglas fir
> trees as large as 15 feet in circumference.
> Proceeding with the overland route will destroy portions of the rare
> and sensitive Coastal Bluff Arbutus Dry Subzone of the Coastal
> Western Hemlock biogeoclimatic zone. This Eagleridge Bluff
> broad-leaved arbutus stand is one of the rarest forest ecosystem in BC
> and does not occur elsewhere in Canada. The unique dry arbutus habitat
> of the Coastal Bluff Arbutus Dry Subzone supports rare vegetation
> associations and occurs nowhere else on the Lower Mainland. This plant
> community can be easily damaged since the thick moss and lichen have
> no firm attachment to the rocky bluffs. Of 22 regionally rare plants
> in the Lower Mainland, 13 are found in the Eagleridge Bluffs area.
> The lower reaches of Larsen Creek support populations of salmon and
> trout and should be afforded the protection provided by legislation.
> This includes a protective buffer setback from the top of the east
> bank. The Black Mountain Trail follows this top of east bank before
> intersecting with the Baden Powell Trail near the Larsen Creek
> Wetlands. On site survey markers delineating clearing and grubbing for
> the proposed construction of a logging road over the existing trail
> show no provision for the buffer.
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
di wrote:
> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
>> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
>> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
>> areas where they want to ride.
>>
>> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
>> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>>
>> Mike
>>

> We don't have time, we're to busy saving all the whales and spotted owls
> that hang around our trails
>
>


Hummm... Spotted Owls... taste like chicken... :)
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
> areas where they want to ride.
>
> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>

A: Nothing in the piece you posted is relevant to the title you posted or
the opening description you tagged on. Are we supposed to play some psychic
"connect the dots" with your ramblings now...?
B: Mountain biking has been a part of the Olympic Summer Games since '96 and
Atlanta. It is on the schedule for Beijing in 2008. Your plea to the Olympic
Committee is more than 10 years late.
Beyond that, it proves yet another body with official status recognizes
off-road cycling. Thanks for posting and reminding us just how much our
sport has grown and gained respectable status world-wide.
 
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Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:40:08 -0400
From: Josh <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: I need help on my math homework, im to distracted by mountain
bikes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sir,

I recently read your thesis on mountain bikes, and i cant say i agree
more with your many well thought out points of view. I mean, when you
ride a bike you don't get any exercise. Common, look at lance
Armstrong, anyone could with the tour De France nine times strait, i
guess no one else has tried hard enough...... I am a eagle scout, a
respective national honors student, and a avid mountain biker.
According to your thesis i plague the world with destruction. However
much to my amazement i find myself helping others, improving trails,
working at zoos to further animal vaccine research.....Guess i must be
a hypocrite because i mountain bike, what can i say. However your
points in your paper were extremely biased, had no citations for the
speakers and thus was plagiarism, and in addition had no references to
the vast accusatory points that you provided. I encourage you to
respond because i would really take enjoyment of laughing at your
pathetic attempts to justify your actions and accusations.

Have a fun time mountain Biking!!

A avid biker


I dare you to justify your thesis, i also dare you to read your own
********.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Can't you defend your indefensible, destructive sport any other way?

Mike

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From: "Dan Taylor" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: your article on mtb
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:11:11 -0700
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if i ever see you hiking a trail im gunna break your hiking stick and
cut your nalgege bottle with a hack saw and throw rocks and mess up
teh trail and be a bad ass biker cause thats all we are. get laid and
stop complaining. theres was a post ona online forum about your
article that shows you have no clue what mountain bikers are and
people like you give us bad reputations. also if we are lazy why dont
you try to ride a bike for a couple hours straight. on a weekly basis
i bike 5 times a week if its nice out and on weekends up to 9 hours a
day.

From: Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
To: Dan Taylor <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your article on mtb
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT)
>I'll reply later. I'm just curious why I suddenly
>got several emails from mountain bikers. What
>occasioned it?
>
>--- Dan Taylor <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>---------------------------------
>you are a complete looser and you are one one
>lieing. i am sure you have no wife or girlfriend
>because they could never stand you and everything
>has to be perfect for you if you are compaining
>about dirt falling off a mtn. go complain to a
>building company or something for destroying
>acres of land for a mini mall. get a life and i
>cant belive i spend 5 min. writing this to such a
>dumbass as you
>
>
>
>
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande


===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
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From: "Spot The Dog" <[email protected]>
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Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:51:55 -0400
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Hello,

After reviewing your articles, or what appear to be more like online
rants, I am starting to think you are a lunatic. It seems as if you
hate people who enjoy the outdoors and nature in ways that differ from
how you enjoy nature; and then you cover up your hatred by claiming
you are an environmentalist. Why is it others are not allowed to enjoy
nature as they please? In one particular essay of yours, "The
Psychology of Mountain Biking", you seem to resort to name calling and
trying to generalize the mountain bike community. I do not mountain
bike myself, but I know people who do, and they tend to care more
about the environment than most. What you do not seem to realize is
that most people do not care about nature, so alienating those who do
care because they ride bicycles is not helping your cause. You should
try to concentrate on more relevant issues like people who drive large
SUVs or companies using up all the natural resources before
nit-picking on mountain bikers, ATVers, or people who Jet-ski.
Otherwise you just come off as some crazy environmentalist that lives
in a grass hut and hates the world.

Thank you for your time,
Spot

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:
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> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:40:08 -0400
> From: Josh <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: I need help on my math homework, im to distracted by mountain
> bikes
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> Sir,
>
> I recently read your thesis on mountain bikes, and i cant say i agree
> more with your many well thought out points of view. I mean, when you
> ride a bike you don't get any exercise. Common, look at lance
> Armstrong, anyone could with the tour De France nine times strait, i
> guess no one else has tried hard enough...... I am a eagle scout, a
> respective national honors student, and a avid mountain biker.
> According to your thesis i plague the world with destruction. However
> much to my amazement i find myself helping others, improving trails,
> working at zoos to further animal vaccine research.....Guess i must be
> a hypocrite because i mountain bike, what can i say. However your
> points in your paper were extremely biased, had no citations for the
> speakers and thus was plagiarism, and in addition had no references to
> the vast accusatory points that you provided. I encourage you to
> respond because i would really take enjoyment of laughing at your
> pathetic attempts to justify your actions and accusations.
>
> Have a fun time mountain Biking!!
>
> A avid biker
>
>
> I dare you to justify your thesis, i also dare you to read your own
> ********.
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande


Are you expecting us to comment about how spot-on he was?
 
At 09:41 PM 5/11/2006, you wrote:
>Hi,

Just a quick question: Do you live in a house or any form of dwelling?

Of course. DON'T YOU? If you do, you have no cause to complain to
anyone else about them doing it.

>If yes, then surely you cannot offer such cynical and narrow minded

responses to the impacts of (specifically) mountain-biking without
feeling some sort of guilt?

Why should I? I didn't destroy any habitat. I only moved in.

>When you go shoppping, drive your car to work,


I don't own a car.

>go out to dinner, the

indirect impacts of supporting suburbia

I don't live in suburbia.

> (buying a house which destroys

a quarter-acre block of land, going to the shopping mall which is
measured in hectares etc.) should be quite clear in your mind before
you even begin to comment or complain about another groups passion for
riding.

You mean passion for destroying the environment. And then
rationalizing it.

>Mountain bikers certianly do not "lie" any more than you would.


I have never met ANY group of people who lie as much as mountain
bikers do. The reason is obvious: you don't think you can defend your
selfish, destructive sport any other way.

> In

fact, many statements which I have noted on your website are opinions,
which are to the minds of many, not true. Congratulations that you
have such a self-assured confidence in the way you speak, but I can
promise you that you do, in fact, "lie" on many occasions and make a
public spectacle of it on your website.

It's interesting that you are unable to quote even ONE alleged "lie".
You wouldn't be LYING, would you?

>It has been proven that in many areas walking can make a larger

ecologically damaging footprint on the land than riding a bicycle
through it.

That is a lie. It's interesting that you provide not one shred of
evidence to support it. I'm sure you just heard that somewhere and
repeated it. Making assertions that you don't KNOW to be fact is
called "lying". See my point?

>Now I can hardly understand why you put such a cynical emphasis on a

small niche sport, when you really should be focusing on large-scale
development proposals, and your own way of supporting the environment.

Fighting road construction isn't "focusing on large-scale development
proposals"???? You are LYING again. Do you see my point? Are you
honest enough to admit that you have lied several times in your short
message?

>Oliver

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Bloody Nora. The last time I looked at this forum about a year ago Mr Vandeman was on his soapbox shouting some bollocks about cyclists. I come back and he is still shouting.
 
At 10:24 PM 5/11/2006, you wrote:
>Dear Mr. Vandeman


>Until recently I have never seen anyone quite so objected to mountain biking. I have read a few of your articles where you express concerns about the environmental impact of mountain bikers on trails. Erosion seems to be your greatest concern, then the practices of actually building the trails, followed by the welfare of other trail users.


You didn't read carefully. My biggest concern is habitat and wildlife.
The fact that you can't read is probably why you know so little about
the problems caused by mountain biking.

> I have read of what you've written about yourself and cycling shows up. This was quite a surprise to me.


Showing how little you understand me.

>Now I will let you know now that I am a passionate mountain and road biker, and disagree with much you said about "The Psychology of Mountain Biking" six years ago. I am not lazy,


Too lazy to WALK those trails. Mountain bikers want to go faster &
farther than they can walk, even though it means that they can't
really experience nature, the way a hiker can.

> nor am I a chronic liar. Perhaps this is because I live in a part of the world where the biking and environmentalists are on the same page. In Squamish, (West Coast of B.C.) biking, hiking, and equestrian sports all coexist.


You apparently don't think that I know about BC. Hikers and
equestrians there don't like mountain biking, but you have mostly
driven them off the trails. I have heard from real environmentalists,
and they are DISGUSTED with what mountain bikers are doing there,
including riding illegally and building illegal trails and structures
in the woods. You pretend that that doesn't exist, peoving that you
are a liar.

> Your views on the building trails seem to be steadfast. I'd imagine that this is because you are in an arid area where the few trails that can be built are not built to suit more than one group of trail users. If you were to live in somewhere like Squamish, where the trails are used and built by all sorts of trail users, do you think you could come to accept mountain biking?


Who builds the trails is irrelevant. Your trails are no different: ALL
trail construction destroys habitat.

> You do seem very harsh towards mountain bikers.


I just tell the truth. You don't.

> I would like you to realize that the what you are saying applying to people all around the world. Many of your stereotypes do not apply to almost all of my biking friends. As with any new or extreme sport there are the posers who want to build themselves a name, but for the most part the biking scene around Squamish consists of a hard working, fun loving, and well liked group.


Your idea of "fun" is illegal: building unauthorized trails &
structures on public or private lands.

>The loggers are the only ones who really don't like us


That is a BLATANT LIE. I AM aware of what is going on up there. Do you
see my point? You claim not to be a chronic liar, but you have lied
several times in the space of a short email!

>because, contrary to what you believe, we are the people who are most concerned about their practices. Personally I try to be environmentally sound. I have been involved in many petitions to stop the logging of old growth forest, and am currently one of the few who will be out blockading a road if they decide to start logging. ( http://www.sorca.ca/STP/ for more information, I would be very complimented if you were to take a look at that)


What have you done to stop the Olympics from coming to BC? And the
road-building that goes along with it?

>I think what you see in your rugged terrain is, unfortunately, not what mountain biking is all about. I think if you were to see Squamish, and how mountain bikers, and other trail users have come to co-exist,


I know the truth, since I have heard from friends in Vancouver.

> you would be able look at us a little differently. Thank you very much for your time. I would like to know if you object to building trails in a temperate rain forest.


Of course, especially for a frivolous, destructive pastime like
mountain biking.

> I would also like to know if you have ever had instances where you have seen relatively environmentally friendly trail building.


Yes, by DEER.

> One final thought, do you think there is anything that I should know that could help me make more environmentally friendly trails (I will continue to build trails regardless).


Yes. Don't build any! DUH!

>Thanks


Daniel MacKellar

Squamish, B.C.

Lifeguard, High school Student, and biking enthusiast.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"That is a lie. It's interesting that you provide not one shred of
evidence to support it. I'm sure you just heard that somewhere and
repeated it. Making assertions that you don't KNOW to be fact is
called "lying". See my point?"

please can you provide evidence that the previous chap was "lying?" you have provided not a single shred of evidence that he is. you have simply blandly stated that he is lying.

Lets assume for your argument that he is INCORRECT (I am not sayiing he is, purely for arguments sake) surely if he believes he is correct then he is just misinformed not a liar, since as you state you have to be aware of the fact you are lying to actually be lying. But you cannot possibly know whether he knows that he is wrong (assuming of course he IS wrong) or whether he is simply misinformed. So therefore you have made an assertation that you cannot prove to be true. But then you KNOW all of the above because you are a seasoned debater (well in my opinion more of a soapbox king but that is a different issue) you know all of the above that I have just stated. So therefore by your own argument you are a liar. Because I am gentleman, I will settle for the agreement that you are simply misinformed.

So we now take this to conclusion and we have two potential hypotheses.
Case 1. that you are a liar. - In this case, what else have you lied about? Your credibility is shot and nobody will believe a word you say.

Case 2. You are simply misinformed. If you are so misinformed about something as simple as this, what else are you misinformed about? People lose confidence in you, your credibilty vanishes and nobody will believe a word you say.

now obviously, because I have STATED my assumptions I cannot possibly be accused of being a liar. Therefore I could be misinformed but I worked all the above out for myself without any help from anyone else. I could of course be wrong and I would welcome any proof that I am so.

Sadly I cannot go mountainbiking this weekend as I have severe chest pains and wont be biking anywhere for a while. Tis good to be back!!

And finally you must really hate people like me because one of my favourite leisure activities is mountainbiking (I have several you see and I would include walking/hiking in there) and for a living I design roads (well I am a civil engineer in a highways division) - a very credible and professional career I would also add.
 
....and this is supposed to address the lack of substance in your original
post title on destruction and back yards...?

Just how is that?
 
"davebee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Bloody Nora. The last time I looked at this forum about a year ago Mr
> Vandeman was on his soapbox shouting some bollocks about cyclists. I
> come back and he is still shouting.
>
>
> --
> davebee
>


He's shouting because that's all he can do, he doesn't have the power or
support to do anything else. He's a "nothing" living in a world of make
believe, hoping someone will pay attention to him, but around here we all
treat him like a clown only good for entertainment purposes, and he
accommodates us.
 
Mike Vandeman said:
At 10:24 PM 5/11/2006, you wrote:



Too lazy to WALK those trails. Mountain bikers want to go faster &
farther than they can walk, even though it means that they can't
really experience nature, the way a hiker can.


Difference between being too lazy too do something and wanting to do it a different way. Why do you think triathlon exists as a sport? (because people want to do the same thing in different ways ie travel) Why do you think ironman competitions exist? (Because there are people who enjoy triathlon that want to push their bodies to the absolute limit) I would like to see you tell an ironman athlete that he is too lazy to walk. and before you ask yes you do get offroad ironmans, they are just not that common.


You apparently don't think that I know about BC. Hikers and
equestrians there don't like mountain biking, but you have mostly
driven them off the trails. I have heard from real environmentalists,
and they are DISGUSTED with what mountain bikers are doing there,
including riding illegally and building illegal trails and structures
in the woods. You pretend that that doesn't exist, peoving that you
are a liar.
[/color=blue]

Would a real environmentalist be somebody who happens to agree with you and a non-real one somebody who disagrees?


I just tell the truth. You don't.
[/color=blue]

and Vande does what philosphers have been trying to do for centuries. define truth!!


Your idea of "fun" is illegal: building unauthorized trails &
structures on public or private lands.
[/color=blue]

if the person who owns the land wants to build it and the powers that be agree and give planning and construction consent then it is not unauthorised. it is totally legit. and mountainbiking is not illegal. You may think it is immoral, but it certainly is not against the laws.


That is a BLATANT LIE. I AM aware of what is going on up there. Do you
see my point? You claim not to be a chronic liar, but you have lied
several times in the space of a short email!
[/color=blue]

you aint exactly the worlds most honest bloke mikey.




Mike two questions for you.
Do you think that ALL road construction is bad? (even installations such as safety barriers, improved drainage, resurfacing works and ATM systems all of which help to save the lives of many people who use the roads to go abotu their daily lives?

Have you ever considered that you might have more luck if you toned the message down a bit and was a little bit more rational? At the end of the day if you want to have a rant that is your choice, if you want to make a difference you have to come across as rational, and as far as I am aware you don't.
 
[snip]

one other question for you mike and this is not a rant or a gripe or a criticism. I will leave it open so that I am not putting words in your mouth or applying criticsim)

How do you want to be remembered when you die?
 
On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:53:47 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
>> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
>> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
>> areas where they want to ride.
>>
>> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
>> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>>

>A: Nothing in the piece you posted is relevant to the title you posted or
>the opening description you tagged on. Are we supposed to play some psychic
>"connect the dots" with your ramblings now...?


Learn to read. A highway is planned in BC, just to save a few minutes
driving from Vancouver to Whistler. Mountain bikers are SILENT about
this destruction, probably so that no one will notice their OWN
destruction of the forest.

>B: Mountain biking has been a part of the Olympic Summer Games since '96 and
>Atlanta. It is on the schedule for Beijing in 2008. Your plea to the Olympic
>Committee is more than 10 years late.
>Beyond that, it proves yet another body with official status recognizes
>off-road cycling. Thanks for posting and reminding us just how much our
>sport has grown and gained respectable status world-wide.


The Olympics is a purely commercial enterprise with no respectability
whatsoever.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:53:47 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> Mountain bikers claim to be environmentalists and nature lovers. They
>>> claim that mountain biking helps protect habitat from development. But
>>> the fact is, they are only interested in "protecting" BIKE ACCESS in
>>> areas where they want to ride.
>>>
>>> Please let your Olympic Committee know that you don't approve of this
>>> kind of environmental destruction in the name of sport.
>>>

>>A: Nothing in the piece you posted is relevant to the title you posted or
>>the opening description you tagged on. Are we supposed to play some
>>psychic
>>"connect the dots" with your ramblings now...?

>
> Learn to read. A highway is planned in BC, just to save a few minutes
> driving from Vancouver to Whistler. Mountain bikers are SILENT about
> this destruction, probably so that no one will notice their OWN
> destruction of the forest.


So... because "mountain bikers" are not specifically mentioned in the piece
you post, you get to say they are not involved or interested....?

That means I get to say "Mike Vandeman SILENT about sale of National Forest
land in Virginia for development"
Hey, I don't see your name mentioned specifically in the piece you posted,
so it must also be true:
"Mike Vandeman SILENT about Environmental Destruction in Eagle Nesting
Area".

>
>>B: Mountain biking has been a part of the Olympic Summer Games since '96
>>and
>>Atlanta. It is on the schedule for Beijing in 2008. Your plea to the
>>Olympic
>>Committee is more than 10 years late.
>>Beyond that, it proves yet another body with official status recognizes
>>off-road cycling. Thanks for posting and reminding us just how much our
>>sport has grown and gained respectable status world-wide.

>
> The Olympics is a purely commercial enterprise with no respectability
> whatsoever.
> ===

That may be the most defensible thing you have ever stated. Especially with
the selection of Beijing.