Legalized draft

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob Haase said:

In a race last year, I passed a guy and he immediately jumped on. when
I looked back to see him tucked in about five inches behind my wheel he
said, "I hope you don't mind me using your draft." I politely told him
that I did mind because it was ILLEGAL. He said he didn't know and
immediately dropped back.

If they're still there after a warning, I start to clear my nose.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Radioactive Man said:

Quoted message said:

Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...

No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule.

It is certainly enforceable, but I grant that they might need more race
marshalls than you typically see at races because there are so many
jackasses who enter a race with certain rules and then cheat. If people
had some self-respect and honor, they wouldn't need any race marshalls.

Quoted message said:

The
bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
at once, they are drafting.

And chances are that if you're first out of the water on the swim, you
won't hold that lead for long.

Certainly true. I spent less that 10% of my half ironman time on the
swim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
start format?

I think it was the year when they had to swim first and run after.

You will note that drafting is illegal in the time trial in the TDF, and
that they don't do a mass bike start in triathlon, but a mass swim start.

The problem is that swimmers don't come out of the water 2 minutes
apart, even if you start them 2 minutes apart.

Radioactive Man said:

The point is that the USAT drop back rules can cost me time off what I
could do in a true, undisrupted time trial, be it a minute, a second,
whatever. If I have to stop pedalling at my usual efficient and
optimal cadence and level of effort, even for a split second, I have
lost time. If I have to pedal harder than my very efficient and
optimal pace to sprint past another competitor, it will also cost me
time because I won't have as much speed later.

Now that you have stated your argument, I understand your reasoning and
see the validity.

To this I would say that I really dislike people drafting off of me
because I am new to biking and I have a problem visually when I can see
people off the side of my view or their shadow, it throws me off kilter.

I am also not the most stable in the world and I only recently found
some confidence after having a very bad bike injury a few years back and
don't want anyone around just incase I do crash or they cause my crash.

Also, I don't like how it feels in my body, and also the drafting can
suck the wind and energy out of me as well and make it harder for me to
finish.

However, if someone wants to pass me, I have no problem and will move
over to enable their pass and appreciate the same courtesy.

I now realize that it is the drafting that I detest as well as the rule
about dropping back and speeding up to pass within a few seconds rule.
If people could pass without drafting, that would be the best in both
worlds, in my opinion. This would also allow you to go your own pace and
not burn out going too slow or too fast.

Radioactive Man <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Tom Henderson said:

Radioactive Man <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:3mhv91p92d4vevd0gfud90963obshbths2 @4ax.com:

Quoted message said:

When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
start format?

When was the last time a TDF time trial started with a swim?

They start at intervals several minutes _apart_ from each other. Note
the absence of a mass start in a time trial.

You didn't answer my question.

My point is that the feild is already somewhat broken up by the start of
the bike. Not to mention that some fast swimmers will start out ahead of
faster bikers, etc. The feild is somewhat spread out already, even more
so in races with wave starts.

Not to mention that the comparison to a road cycling time trial is moot
in the first place. Horse races are mass start, pool players take turns,
rugby is played with just one ball. What's that got to do with triathlon?

If you lose more than 30 seconds in a half ironman due to following the
drafting rules, and you're biking consistently, I'll buy you a serotta.
I'll bet dollars to donuts that you're riding along at 18.0 mph, and when
someone passes you at 18.2, you realize you've let off and pick up the
pace to 19, and now can't pass right away because of the drafting rules.
You didn't lose any time because you were passed, you actually gained
some back because you were just reminded that you fell off your pace. Of
course it's also possible that the passer almost threw a lung trying to
get by you and backed of to 17.5 once he passed you, but you should be
able to drop someone like that once you overtake the first time.

(note: serotta makes bumpers stickers, so don't get all excited about
making your claim. I didn't say a serotta *BIKE*)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Henderson said:

If you lose more than 30 seconds in a half ironman due to following the
drafting rules, and you're biking consistently, I'll buy you a serotta.
I'll bet dollars to donuts that you're riding along at 18.0 mph, and when
someone passes you at 18.2, you realize you've let off and pick up the
pace to 19, and now can't pass right away because of the drafting rules.

The place where it can really screw someone is if you're faster climbing
and soeone else is faster descending, and the course is hilly.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Quoted message said:

The point is that the USAT drop back rules can cost me time off what I
could do in a true, undisrupted time trial, be it a minute, a second,
whatever. If I have to stop pedalling at my usual efficient and
optimal cadence and level of effort, even for a split second, I have
lost time. If I have to pedal harder than my very efficient and
optimal pace to sprint past another competitor, it will also cost me
time because I won't have as much speed later.

Yes, the USAT drop back rules can "cost you time off what I could do in
a true, undisrupted time trial." This isn't a very strong point.

That you can gain time by disobeying the rules is hardly a surprise in
any sport. The rules in a pure cycling time trial also require you to
drop back if you are passed, causing you to lose time. On an
out-and-back run course on single track, the out runner is required to
yield to the in runner, this can cost the out runner time. In baseball
not corking your bat can cause you to lose distance on your line drive.
In golf using a regulation ball can cause you to lose distance off the
tee.

Quoted message said:

It's not that I love drafting, just the ability to race unconstrained
by some set of arbitrary rules that does not exist in any other form
of racing.

Every form of racing has arbitrary rules. Are you thinking only of
cycling? Equipment rules are arbitrary. Performance enhancing drug
rules are arbitrary. Running has arbitrary rules about following the
course, accepting outside assistance (if it is legal to accept a drink
from the course marshal, why not from the spectator, or your training
buddy?)

Quoted message said:

In reality, the effects of drafting are often overestimated -- even
the pros in the TDF can't always keep a pack together, much less a
pack of age-group triathletes. Send them through a few turns or
hills, and the packs tend to come apart. There are plenty of ways to
limit the effects of drafting without making it illegal.

First off, the effects of drafting are huge and your example shows it.
If there were little effect of drafting and you were doing 250 Watts in
the draft and lost the pack because of turns, you could do 260 W for a
few minutes and get back on. This doesn't happen. If the pack comes
apart you have to do 340 W to get back, or you get dropped for the day.
Why? Because riding in the draft saves an enormous amount of energy
compared to being in the wind.

On the other hand, in triathlon, if you are riding along at your
constant effort, whatever that is, and someone passes you, you can't
continue your constant effort in their draft. Either you drop back and
continue your constant effort (which is assured in almost all cases
without you taking any action at all) or you get in their draft,
continue your constant effort and ride into them, because of the
advantage of the draft.

Returning to your original point of "USAT drop back rules can cost me
time off what I could do in a true, undisrupted time trial." Not
dropping back can gain you time off what you could do in the same time
trial. You get to take it easy in the draft at a new, faster constant
speed. Why is this better?

--
Ray