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Legalized draft

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Triathlon
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1 April 2005
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6 June 2005
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Harold Buck
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  1. In article <d2n6e.959099$6l.521368@pd7tw2no>,

    Triathlete said:

    Hey, did you pull one over on me for April Fools?

    Harold Buck said:

    I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
    age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about wanting
    a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw from for the US
    Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how this turns out; I think
    a lot of races will renounce their USAT affiliation.

    Yes. Yes, I did. :-)

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

  2. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Silver0l said:

    The fact that these races happen in Europe is irrelevant to the point.
    Wherever they occur, these large scale draft-legal road races just prove
    that drafting is not dangerous per se.

    But it sure doesn't prove that draft-legal races are safe with a bunch
    of runners who just bought bikes last month so they could do a triathlon
    to see if they like it.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Silver0l said:

    "Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal race


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!

    For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
    draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
    other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
    basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
    so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater. Exciting,
    maybe, but sure as hell not fair.

    There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
    I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
    fairness...
    Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...

    So, you want to just talk about "exciting vs. boring" without regard to
    ANYTHING else that is important. Okay, well, let's give everyone a
    shotgun and a machete for the run, a spear gun for the swim, and a
    handlebar-mounted slingshot for the bike. That will make it exciting!

    You can't talk about "excitement" in a vacuum without considering how
    the decisions about that affect fairness, safety, or other important
    factors.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

  4. "Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Silver0l said:

    "Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >
    > I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal
    > race


    is

    Quoted message said:

    > much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!

    For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
    draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
    other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
    basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
    so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater.
    Exciting,
    maybe, but sure as hell not fair.

    There is a logical fallacy here - a red herring.
    I was tackling the boring / exciting argument, and you argue about
    fairness...
    Try to put some rationnality in your arguments...

    So, you want to just talk about "exciting vs. boring" without regard to
    ANYTHING else that is important. Okay, well, let's give everyone a
    shotgun and a machete for the run, a spear gun for the swim, and a
    handlebar-mounted slingshot for the bike. That will make it exciting!

    You can't talk about "excitement" in a vacuum without considering how
    the decisions about that affect fairness, safety, or other important
    factors.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

    Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's posts....
    Wierd.

  5. Harold Buck said:

    In article <d2n6e.959099$6l.521368@pd7tw2no>,

    Triathlete said:

    Hey, did you pull one over on me for April Fools?

    Harold Buck said:

    I just spotted this on the USAT website: effective June 1, all USAT
    age-group events will be draft-legal. They said something about wanting
    a larger pool of people with drafting experience to draw from for the US
    Olympic team. It will be interesting to see how this turns out; I think
    a lot of races will renounce their USAT affiliation.

    Yes. Yes, I did. :-)

    Thanks Harold. You riled me up enough to get me out of lurk mode. 😉

  6. "John Hardt" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's
    posts.... Wierd.

    What the heck happened to him? Kinda strange for someone so full of [censored] &
    vinegar to just drop off the map.

  7. "Tom Henderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "John Hardt" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's
    posts.... Wierd.

    What the heck happened to him? Kinda strange for someone so full of [censored] &
    vinegar to just drop off the map.

    I don't know.

    During 2000 - 2002ish he used to race in events not far from me here in Ohio
    but he doesn't seem to appear in the race results anymore. He must have
    either dropped the sport or moved to Siberia.

    John

  8. Tom Henderson said:

    "John Hardt" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Woah. For a minute there I thought I was reading one of Brian W's
    posts.... Wierd.

    What the heck happened to him?

    The contract. He sleeps with the fishes.

    Mike Tennent
    "IronPenguin"

  9. pyschosyd said:


    I don't know about you guys, but I honestly would prefer to think that
    what I achieved was based on the hours of hard training that I put in.
    I agree that drafting is a skill which requires practice. While non
    draft legal triathlon does require skill in each discipline in the long
    run(pun intended) the fittest athlete, on the day, wins.

    If racing is just about "fitness", why don't yall just compete on a
    windtrainer and treadmill? Maybe in a pool. Just run some tests and
    the best scores win. You could use some formula to compensate for
    weight. Simple. That;ll eliminate luck, tactics, most pacing,
    weather, etc. Just test fitness.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  10. pyschosyd said:

    This is a tough issue. The people with road racing backgrounds will
    naturally favour the drafting because it makes more sense to them.

    To the contrary, they'll probably be against it so they don't lose the
    advantage of faster bike splits. It sucks to be the fastest cyclist
    when you're towing a bunch of better runners to T2.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    pyschosyd said:

    I don't know about you guys, but I honestly would prefer to think that
    what I achieved was based on the hours of hard training that I put in.
    I agree that drafting is a skill which requires practice. While non
    draft legal triathlon does require skill in each discipline in the long
    run(pun intended) the fittest athlete, on the day, wins.

    I think it's extremely naiive to think that the fittest person always
    wins. First of all, that discounts the roles of strategy, tactics,
    pacing, equipment, conditions, and other factors.

    But more than that, it assumes that the format of the race has no
    bearing on the outcome. For example, the best indoor track runners
    aren't always the best outdoor track runners. Lance Armstrong might be a
    nobody if he were a velodrome racer. And people who can get away with
    being weaker on the bike because they can draft in draft-legal races may
    have more success in draftathlon than triathlon.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

  12. Harold Buck said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Silver0l said:

    And the argument that it is a disadvantage for good swimmers doesn't hold.
    One can argue that a good swimmer will have his advantage cancelled when the
    biker pack will pass him, but conversely, one can argue that only good
    swimmers will be able to catch the right pack.

    So, the fact that bad swimmers and good swimmers can both potentially
    get screwed makes it fair? Didn't your momma ever tell you two wrongs
    don't make a right?

    I'm sorry, but I think if I can swim the course one minute faster than
    you can and our cycling and running skills and conditioning are exactly
    the same, I should beat you by one minute, not lose because you caught
    up to me--and got to rest while doing it--by riding in a peloton.

    Drafting is great--for road cycling races. Let's leave it there.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

    Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
    time following USAT rules about dropping back?

  13. Radioactive Man said:

    Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
    time following USAT rules about dropping back?

    Just so I don't waste everyones time writing an explanation of why this
    won't happen could you just spell out the circumstances where you could
    lose a minute dropping back because of the USAT overtaking rules...

    Could it be something to do with not being a strong enough cyclist to
    actually overtake someone with whom you are keeping the same speed, or
    is it becuase you are not a strong enough cyclist to re-overtake or
    keep ahead of someone who is cycling faster than you?

    I don't think that either of these are a good reason to legalise
    drafting and I'm struggling to think of another. If you are over taken
    by ten cyclists each of whom have to abide by the same rules in a race,
    you don't have to drop back, you are just a cr@p cyclist and need to
    train more... they will just pass you and you can cycle as fast as you
    can anyway. In a big race where there are hundreds of cyclists in the
    same stretch of road it is easy to stay out of someones draft zone
    without having to drop back or lose any real time.

    Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
    improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...

  14. On 31 May 2005 14:57:26 -0700, "trimark" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Radioactive Man said:

    Does it not cross your mind that someone could just as easily loose
    time following USAT rules about dropping back?

    Just so I don't waste everyones time writing an explanation of why this
    won't happen could you just spell out the circumstances where you could
    lose a minute dropping back because of the USAT overtaking rules...

    Could it be something to do with not being a strong enough cyclist to
    actually overtake someone with whom you are keeping the same speed, or
    is it becuase you are not a strong enough cyclist to re-overtake or
    keep ahead of someone who is cycling faster than you?

    I don't think that either of these are a good reason to legalise
    drafting and I'm struggling to think of another. If you are over taken
    by ten cyclists each of whom have to abide by the same rules in a race,
    you don't have to drop back, you are just a cr@p cyclist and need to
    train more... they will just pass you and you can cycle as fast as you
    can anyway. In a big race where there are hundreds of cyclists in the
    same stretch of road it is easy to stay out of someones draft zone
    without having to drop back or lose any real time.

    Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
    improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...

    No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule. The
    bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
    you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
    the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
    at once, they are drafting.

    USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
    that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
    start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
    start format?

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Radioactive Man said:
    Quoted message said:

    Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
    improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...

    No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule.

    It is certainly enforceable, but I grant that they might need more race
    marshalls than you typically see at races because there are so many
    jackasses who enter a race with certain rules and then cheat. If people
    had some self-respect and honor, they wouldn't need any race marshalls.

    Quoted message said:

    The
    bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
    you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
    the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
    at once, they are drafting.

    And chances are that if you're first out of the water on the swim, you
    won't hold that lead for long.

    Quoted message said:


    USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
    that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
    start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
    start format?

    I think it was the year when they had to swim first and run after.

    You will note that drafting is illegal in the time trial in the TDF, and
    that they don't do a mass bike start in triathlon, but a mass swim start.

    --Harold Buck

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

  16. Harold Buck said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Radioactive Man said:
    Quoted message said:

    Drafting is just plain wrong in triathlon, get over it and get back to
    improving as a cyclist! ... we now return you to your normal service...

    No. It's nothing more than an arbitrary and unenforceable rule.

    It is certainly enforceable, but I grant that they might need more race
    marshalls than you typically see at races because there are so many
    jackasses who enter a race with certain rules and then cheat. If people
    had some self-respect and honor, they wouldn't need any race marshalls.

    Quoted message said:

    The
    bottom line is that in a draft-legal event (triathlon or duathlon),
    you must earn your place in the pack -- nobody gets that position in
    the lead pack handed to them. And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
    at once, they are drafting.

    And chances are that if you're first out of the water on the swim, you
    won't hold that lead for long.

    Quoted message said:

    USAT (and it's non-U.S. counterparts) is the only organization I know
    that sanctions events that involve draft-prohibited cycling and a mass
    start. When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
    start format?

    I think it was the year when they had to swim first and run after.

    *LOL*

    Quoted message said:

    You will note that drafting is illegal in the time trial in the TDF, and
    that they don't do a mass bike start in triathlon, but a mass swim start.

    --Harold Buck

    Quoted message said:

    "I used to rock and roll all night,
    and party every day.
    Then it was every other day. . . ."
    -Homer J. Simpson

    I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
    in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
    Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
    feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
    the pack.

    jh

  17. JH said:


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
    in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
    Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
    feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
    the pack.

    jh

    Kind of like drug cheats. Cheating is cheating, and if you do it, your
    priorities are wrong.

    Tam

  18. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And chances are, if 10 cyclists pass me
    at once, they are drafting.

    See, thats the problem. I never said they past you "at once" you just
    want to draft, and so you assert they were. Your point was that the
    USAT drop back rules would cost you a minute. I don't see how.

    Drafting argument on the basis of performance alone is a losing
    argument. If you want to have drafting becuase you are not a strong
    cyclist and it will give you a better chance, then just say so. If you
    want drafting becuase it makes the bike leg more exciting for
    competitors and spectators, and TV, then just say so. After all,
    everyone likes to watch a good crash don't they ? Or do they just
    replay all those TdF crashes so we can all learn from the mistakes
    made?

    As for earning my place in the pack, trust me, as a reasonable swimmer,
    usually a top-20 transition time and I could sit in or on the back of a
    pack more more easily than I can work hard on my own to make the same
    time/distance in a non-drafting race. Anyone that has done any serious
    pack work knows its easier to keep up than to get dropped and have to
    fight back.

    The bad news in my case is that with one leg 2-inches shorter, nothing
    short of a motorised scooter would give me a chance on the run ;-)

  19. Radioactive Man <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3mhv91p92d4vevd0gfud90963obshbths2
    @4ax.com:

    Quoted message said:

    When did you last see the TDF time trials run under a mass
    start format?

    When was the last time a TDF time trial started with a swim?

  20. JH wrote:

    snip

    Quoted message said:

    I never figured why drafters seem unconcerned about blatantly cheating
    in front their fellow competitors, do they think others don't care?
    Surely any satisfaction of achieving a goal or PB etc would be a hollow
    feeling, irrespective of if they finish in the front, middle or back of
    the pack.

    jh

    I can't figure that out either. I rode in one race where two sisters
    took turns drafting each other. There was a cross wind, so they weren't
    lined up right behind the other, but off to the side. Of course that's
    still drafting. when I passed them, I told them that drafting was
    prohibited. They just glared at me. these women weren't new to the
    sport either. I guess that some people just don't think the rules apply
    to them.

    Neither woman placed, but they did make it difficult for people to pass
    them, and set a bad example.

    I've also been in races where I saw people drafting and told them to
    stop, only to have them say, "What's drafting?" We were at the same
    pre-race meeting where the race director spent a couple of minutes
    talking about position fouls and drafting. I suppose those guys were
    some of the people who talked all through the instructional meeting.

    In a race last year, I passed a guy and he immediately jumped on. when
    I looked back to see him tucked in about five inches behind my wheel he
    said, "I hope you don't mind me using your draft." I politely told him
    that I did mind because it was ILLEGAL. He said he didn't know and
    immediately dropped back.

    It seems to me that many people new to the sport aren't very well
    informed about triathlon rules. Has anybody else noticed this?

    later,
    Bob

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