Legalized draft

In article <[email hidden]>,

Silver0l said:

Did you look at the Olympics. Do you question the value of the athletes
here?

No, I question the value of the format under which they competed. And
for the Olympics, when safety is not such an issue, why not let them
ride draft-legal first, then swim, then run. That way the drafting
doesn't negate a superior swimmer's lead.

Quoted message said:

The fact that bad swimmers and good swimmers can both potentially get
screwed just mean that nobody get screwed. The rule is just different. You
have to swim fast, get in the right pack, and hold your place in it.

I can tell you when I got screwed.

This is when draft was declared illegal, and when I got passed by numerous
bike packs. You get screwed when somebody takes an unfair, illegal advantage
to beat you.

A valid complaint, but one that should be directed at race organizers to
enforce the rules.

Quoted message said:

Illegal drafting is what is happening in real life, every time, everywhere.

And this is what is making people bitter, and ruins the good spirit in so
many triathlons.

Legalizing drafting is the only way to solve the problem.

At the expense of huge bike pileups because you have idiots drafting
without any clue? I don't think so.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

This is to me the essence of the whole drafting/non-drafting argument.
The triathlon I believe should be a test of an individuals unaided
athletic ability. How fast can you swim, without flippers. How fast can
you bike, without a sail. How fast can you run, without some newfangled
shoe with springs.
When we get in a pack we are faster than we would be individually.
The result is that a guy who can average 22 MPH individually could get in
the right pack and average 24 MPH or higher. The results are higher than
he could individually perform. That simple, no longer individual results.
Dale

--
Take out my bike to e-mail.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

What does this mean? Does one group beat another group? I've heard of
team sports -- that;s where a team can beat another team. What is a
group sport?

JT

I'll take an (off-topic) opportunity to rant here. IMO we (triathletes)
started heading down this road when we allowed wetsuits & aerobars.

Wetsuits: With apologies to triathletes in northern, colder areas, I realize
that westuits make it possible to extend your season. However, sometimes
where you live has a natural disadvantage to your aspirations. Can southern
skiers complain about the nature of the sport because of the natural lack of
opportunity - - snow?

Let's not play coy. The prevalence of wetsuits has always had more to do
with a broad lack of individual initiative/willingness to hone the craft
(swimming) than safety or comfort.

Aerobars: Same thing. Why not a faring, recumbants, etc.? In the early
growth days of the sport, everyone was ridng more-or-less the same
configuration/bike. The fastest cyclist truly prevailed.

Advancing the sport doesn't mean advancing the tools or changing the rules.
The greatest sports got that way by having very stable rules and equipment;
that makes it possible to compare performances and careers across
generations. It is hard to measure the spirit of the athlete when the
gadgets become central.

Would you still love the sport if it weren't for all the [censored]? I think the
days of being able to fit your race & transition stuff in your jersey
pockets are nearly over for good.

Remember the guy whose bike was shattered in the Ironman, so he picked it up
and ran it back (several miles) to T2? That kind of will is an anachronism.

rsquared

Quoted message said:

Remember the guy whose bike was shattered in the Ironman, so he picked it

up

Quoted message said:

and ran it back (several miles) to T2? That kind of will is an

anachronism.

Wasn't that the same race where Simon Lessing threw in the towel at, what?
Mile 30?
Hmmmm...

"rsquared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

What does this mean? Does one group beat another group? I've heard of
team sports -- that;s where a team can beat another team. What is a
group sport?

JT

I'll take an (off-topic) opportunity to rant here. IMO we (triathletes)
started heading down this road when we allowed wetsuits & aerobars.

Wetsuits: With apologies to triathletes in northern, colder areas, I

realize

Quoted message said:

that westuits make it possible to extend your season. However, sometimes
where you live has a natural disadvantage to your aspirations. Can

southern

Quoted message said:

skiers complain about the nature of the sport because of the natural lack

of

Quoted message said:

opportunity - - snow?

Let's not play coy. The prevalence of wetsuits has always had more to do
with a broad lack of individual initiative/willingness to hone the craft
(swimming) than safety or comfort.

Aerobars: Same thing. Why not a faring, recumbants, etc.? In the early
growth days of the sport, everyone was ridng more-or-less the same
configuration/bike. The fastest cyclist truly prevailed.

Advancing the sport doesn't mean advancing the tools or changing the

rules.

Quoted message said:

The greatest sports got that way by having very stable rules and

equipment;

Quoted message said:

that makes it possible to compare performances and careers across
generations. It is hard to measure the spirit of the athlete when the
gadgets become central.

Would you still love the sport if it weren't for all the [censored]? I think

the

Quoted message said:

days of being able to fit your race & transition stuff in your jersey
pockets are nearly over for good.

Remember the guy whose bike was shattered in the Ironman, so he picked it

up

Quoted message said:

and ran it back (several miles) to T2? That kind of will is an

anachronism.

Quoted message said:

rsquared

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

What does this mean? Does one group beat another group? I've heard of
team sports -- that;s where a team can beat another team. What is a
group sport?

Drafting allows for triathlon to become a team sport because when
drafting is allowed then you can "pay?" someone to ride infront of you
when you are tired, or circle around you to pull you forward with less
effort, and then you can speed ahead in the end.

If you knew that drafting could help you win, then would it be worth
splitting this win with others who could help you to win the race?

Dale said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

This is to me the essence of the whole drafting/non-drafting argument.
The triathlon I believe should be a test of an individuals unaided
athletic ability. How fast can you swim, without flippers. How fast can
you bike, without a sail. How fast can you run, without some newfangled
shoe with springs.
When we get in a pack we are faster than we would be individually.
The result is that a guy who can average 22 MPH individually could get in
the right pack and average 24 MPH or higher. The results are higher than
he could individually perform. That simple, no longer individual results.
Dale

Right, I agree. Drafting is a sort of "outside assistance". Outside
meaning in this case, outside the individuals "unaided" athletic
ability. But then again, so is having Gatorade on the course. However,
Gatorade would be available to all participants.

Yes, drafting is an ability, but it takes away from the original intent
that I think the other "unaided" athletic ability rules tend to enforce.

Drafting changes the bike geometry that athletes would use, it changes
how people travel from individually to packs. I am a bit worried that it
may also increase injury, especially for newcomers to triathlon. I also
don't like to see practiced drafters sucking the life out of triathletes
who have different goals that don't include drafting.

I am not against having draft legal races, however I would like to see
races without drafting, as well.

But then again, I also don't think that the races where women start
first are sexist, even though they were deemed so by USAT*. I think they
can be great fun, and a nice change of pace.

*I believe it was USAT which deemed these sort of races sexist, and also
did not like how one race in particular was also draft free.

Dale said:

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

This is to me the essence of the whole drafting/non-drafting argument.
The triathlon I believe should be a test of an individuals unaided
athletic ability. How fast can you swim, without flippers. How fast can
you bike, without a sail. How fast can you run, without some newfangled
shoe with springs.
When we get in a pack we are faster than we would be individually.
The result is that a guy who can average 22 MPH individually could get in
the right pack and average 24 MPH or higher. The results are higher than
he could individually perform. That simple, no longer individual results.
Dale

Right, I agree. Drafting is a sort of "outside assistance". Outside
meaning in this case, outside the individuals "unaided" athletic
ability. But then again, so is having Gatorade on the course. However,
Gatorade would be available to all participants.

Yes, drafting is an ability, but it takes away from the original intent
that I think the other "unaided" athletic ability rules tend to enforce.

Drafting changes the bike geometry that athletes would use, it changes
how people travel from individually to packs. I am a bit worried that it
may also increase injury, especially for newcomers to triathlon. I also
don't like to see practiced drafters sucking the life out of triathletes
who have different goals that don't include drafting.

I am not against having draft legal races, however I would like to see
races without drafting, as well.

But then again, I also don't think that the races where women start
first are sexist, even though they were deemed so by USAT*. I think they
can be great fun, and a nice change of pace.

*I believe it was USAT which deemed these sort of races sexist, and also
did not like how one race in particular was also draft free.

required said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

What does this mean? Does one group beat another group? I've heard of
team sports -- that;s where a team can beat another team. What is a
group sport?

JT

I'll take an (off-topic) opportunity to rant here. IMO we (triathletes)
started heading down this road when we allowed wetsuits & aerobars.

Wetsuits: With apologies to triathletes in northern, colder areas, I realize
that westuits make it possible to extend your season. However, sometimes
where you live has a natural disadvantage to your aspirations. Can southern
skiers complain about the nature of the sport because of the natural lack of
opportunity - - snow?

Let's not play coy. The prevalence of wetsuits has always had more to do
with a broad lack of individual initiative/willingness to hone the craft
(swimming) than safety or comfort.

Aerobars: Same thing. Why not a faring, recumbants, etc.? In the early
growth days of the sport, everyone was ridng more-or-less the same
configuration/bike. The fastest cyclist truly prevailed.

Advancing the sport doesn't mean advancing the tools or changing the rules.
The greatest sports got that way by having very stable rules and equipment;
that makes it possible to compare performances and careers across
generations. It is hard to measure the spirit of the athlete when the
gadgets become central.

Would you still love the sport if it weren't for all the [censored]? I think the
days of being able to fit your race & transition stuff in your jersey
pockets are nearly over for good.

Remember the guy whose bike was shattered in the Ironman, so he picked it up
and ran it back (several miles) to T2? That kind of will is an anachronism.

It is true, I like new triathlon toys.
Wouldn't there be fewer aerobars if drafting became prevalent?

In article <[email hidden]>,

rsquared said:

Quoted message said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

What does this mean? Does one group beat another group? I've heard of
team sports -- that;s where a team can beat another team. What is a
group sport?

JT

I'll take an (off-topic) opportunity to rant here. IMO we (triathletes)
started heading down this road when we allowed wetsuits & aerobars.

Wetsuits: With apologies to triathletes in northern, colder areas, I realize
that westuits make it possible to extend your season. However, sometimes
where you live has a natural disadvantage to your aspirations. Can southern
skiers complain about the nature of the sport because of the natural lack of
opportunity - - snow?

Let's not play coy. The prevalence of wetsuits has always had more to do
with a broad lack of individual initiative/willingness to hone the craft
(swimming) than safety or comfort.

Aerobars: Same thing. Why not a faring, recumbants, etc.? In the early
growth days of the sport, everyone was ridng more-or-less the same
configuration/bike. The fastest cyclist truly prevailed.

There's a proposal on the table to allow inline skates on the run.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Dale said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Triathlete said:

drafting causes triathlon to change from an
individual sport to a group sport.

This is to me the essence of the whole drafting/non-drafting argument.
The triathlon I believe should be a test of an individuals unaided
athletic ability. How fast can you swim, without flippers. How fast can
you bike, without a sail. How fast can you run, without some newfangled
shoe with springs.
When we get in a pack we are faster than we would be individually.
The result is that a guy who can average 22 MPH individually could get in
the right pack and average 24 MPH or higher. The results are higher than
he could individually perform. That simple, no longer individual results.
Dale

The issue that hasn't been mentioned (much) in this whole thread is that of
safety. In spite of all the altruistic reasoning about triathlon being an
individual vs. team sport (which I agree with BTW), triathlon is also a
sport where people of all abilities - first timer to pro - compete on the
same course, on the same day, at the same time.

(As a side note, this is a point that was rammed home for me when I found
myself standing next to an Olympic hopeful while waiting for the starting
gun of my first tri. I recognized him from a local newspaper).

With the above being a given, I don't want some guy who just bought his
first road bike and has only done one "ride for a cure" attempting to draft
behind me. Heck, I don't want ME drafting behind an Olympic hopeful, I'm
just not that good and I value both my skin and theirs too much. Period.

If someone wants to allow drafting in an event that is open only to Pros, I
have no problem with that. That situation is nothing more than a bunch of
people, who are very good at what they do, opting to participate in a
variation of their sport. But as soon as you open the event to all, I have
yet to hear any valid argument that would override safety and dictate that
people have any business drafting.

John

John Hardt said:

With the above being a given, I don't want some guy who just bought his
first road bike and has only done one "ride for a cure" attempting to draft
behind me. Heck, I don't want ME drafting behind an Olympic hopeful, I'm
just not that good and I value both my skin and theirs too much. Period.

If someone wants to allow drafting in an event that is open only to Pros, I
have no problem with that. That situation is nothing more than a bunch of
people, who are very good at what they do, opting to participate in a
variation of their sport. But as soon as you open the event to all, I have
yet to hear any valid argument that would override safety and dictate that
people have any business drafting.

Watch the re-runs of the 2000 Olympic triathlon. Crashes everywhere
on a not-too-technical course. If Olympic-caliber athletes crash into
each other trying to draft on time trial bikes, what does that
indicate about the chances all the weekend warriors have of staying
upright?

What I'd like to see is a dedicated group of misfits band together and
blatantly announce they are going to dictate a given race, and
announce who the winner will be. They'll come out of the water
together, then ride in a group, blocking and sprinting and using other
tried and true road racing techniques to shed any "non-team members"
from the pack, pulling their chosen "winner" to an easy victory by
putting him or her at the start of the run minutes in the lead.

Better yet, all but the winner should abandon the race at T2 to make
it even more blatant. Better still if they can find team members who
openly acknowledge they don't ever run at all.

This would point out the absurdity of a draft-legal race better than
anything else I can imagine.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

John Hardt said:

With the above being a given, I don't want some guy who just bought his
first road bike and has only done one "ride for a cure" attempting to draft
behind me. Heck, I don't want ME drafting behind an Olympic hopeful, I'm
just not that good and I value both my skin and theirs too much. Period.

If someone wants to allow drafting in an event that is open only to Pros, I
have no problem with that. That situation is nothing more than a bunch of
people, who are very good at what they do, opting to participate in a
variation of their sport. But as soon as you open the event to all, I have
yet to hear any valid argument that would override safety and dictate that
people have any business drafting.

Watch the re-runs of the 2000 Olympic triathlon. Crashes everywhere
on a not-too-technical course. If Olympic-caliber athletes crash into
each other trying to draft on time trial bikes, what does that
indicate about the chances all the weekend warriors have of staying
upright?

What I'd like to see is a dedicated group of misfits band together and
blatantly announce they are going to dictate a given race, and
announce who the winner will be. They'll come out of the water
together, then ride in a group, blocking and sprinting and using other
tried and true road racing techniques to shed any "non-team members"
from the pack, pulling their chosen "winner" to an easy victory by
putting him or her at the start of the run minutes in the lead.

Better yet, all but the winner should abandon the race at T2 to make
it even more blatant. Better still if they can find team members who
openly acknowledge they don't ever run at all.

This would point out the absurdity of a draft-legal race better than
anything else I can imagine.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

The only thing better than the scenario you describe would be if that "team"
of misfits approached the end of the bike leg with a huge multi-minute
lead... then they all bit the dust in a massive pileup a half-mile before
T2.

Then they could all sit on the ground licking their wounds while the "real"
winner blows past and takes their rightful win. THAT would point out the
absurdity of draft-legal racing.

John

NOTE: No athletes were injured in the making of this fictional scenario.
The author of this post does not condone the injury of athletes to make a
point.

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bloody boring, "non-events" that consisted of a swim, a rambling pack
ride by anyone who had a decent swim leg that served as nothing more
than a warm-up for the "real event", a 10k run.

Nonsense.

I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal race is
much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!

-- Olivier

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What I'd like to see is a dedicated group of misfits band together and
blatantly announce they are going to dictate a given race, and
announce who the winner will be. They'll come out of the water
together, then ride in a group, blocking and sprinting and using other
tried and true road racing techniques to shed any "non-team members"
from the pack, pulling their chosen "winner" to an easy victory by
putting him or her at the start of the run minutes in the lead.

Better yet, all but the winner should abandon the race at T2 to make
it even more blatant. Better still if they can find team members who
openly acknowledge they don't ever run at all.

Stop dreaming, come back in the real world.
There are numerous draft-legal triathlon and this NEVER happen.
This is simply not the way things happen: it would be so easy to destroy
this strategy...

-- Olivier

"John Hardt" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The issue that hasn't been mentioned (much) in this whole thread is that

of

Quoted message said:

safety. In spite of all the altruistic reasoning about triathlon being an
individual vs. team sport (which I agree with BTW), triathlon is also a
sport where people of all abilities - first timer to pro - compete on the
same course, on the same day, at the same time.

(...)

Quoted message said:

With the above being a given, I don't want some guy who just bought his
first road bike and has only done one "ride for a cure" attempting to

draft

Quoted message said:

behind me. Heck, I don't want ME drafting behind an Olympic hopeful, I'm
just not that good and I value both my skin and theirs too much. Period.

Nonsense!

Come back to Earth.

If you are like me and 98% of the triathletes, there is not the slightest
possibility that you will ever be in a position of drafting behind an
Olympic hopeful!

This security argument is void.

I have made some bike races, and I observed the following facts:
- road races may have much more racers than triathlon (seen some races with
4000 people!).
- drafting is allowed
- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than with
triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained people (more
technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as opposed to road
bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can participate (and so
it is!).
- the difference of ability between the first racers and the last is much
bigger on road races than on triathlons (a consequence of the previous fact)
- the road racers drive on much more difficult roads than triathletes
(mountains, sharp curves, whereas most of the triathlons are quite flat)

And road race bikers or organizers don't consider suicide a better option
than triathletes...

-- Olivier

In article <[email hidden]>,

Silver0l said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bloody boring, "non-events" that consisted of a swim, a rambling pack
ride by anyone who had a decent swim leg that served as nothing more
than a warm-up for the "real event", a 10k run.

Nonsense.

I can understand some arguments against drafting, but a draft-legal race is
much more exciting to watch than a time-trial!

For most people, "exciting" = "closer finishes," which is what
draft-legal tends to give you, at the expense of fairly weighting the
other parts of the race. It's almost like they take the score of a
basketball game with 10 seconds to go and they make it a one-point game
so that the trailing team can try to win with a buzzer beater. Exciting,
maybe, but sure as hell not fair.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Silver0l said:

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What I'd like to see is a dedicated group of misfits band together and
blatantly announce they are going to dictate a given race, and
announce who the winner will be. They'll come out of the water
together, then ride in a group, blocking and sprinting and using other
tried and true road racing techniques to shed any "non-team members"
from the pack, pulling their chosen "winner" to an easy victory by
putting him or her at the start of the run minutes in the lead.

Better yet, all but the winner should abandon the race at T2 to make
it even more blatant. Better still if they can find team members who
openly acknowledge they don't ever run at all.

Stop dreaming, come back in the real world.
There are numerous draft-legal triathlon and this NEVER happen.
This is simply not the way things happen: it would be so easy to destroy
this strategy...

You're wrong. I read about a group of triathletes that was doing just
that in draft-legal races: they were working together to set up one guy
for the win, and they'd either won some races or come very close (I
think I read about it here, but it may have been in Triathlete). I can't
recall if the teammates bailed out at T2 or if they jogged to the finish.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:55:17 +0200, "Silver0l" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have made some bike races, and I observed the following facts:
- road races may have much more racers than triathlon (seen some races with
4000 people!).

Where have you seen a bike race with 4000 people? Do you mean a gran
fondo, or a bike tour?

Quoted message said:

- drafting is allowed
- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than with
triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained people (more
technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as opposed to road
bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can participate (and so
it is!).

What kind of bike race is this? Perhaps you are talking about bike
tours or something.

JT

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"Silver0l" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"John Hardt" <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

The issue that hasn't been mentioned (much) in this whole thread is that

of

Quoted message said:

safety. In spite of all the altruistic reasoning about triathlon being
an
individual vs. team sport (which I agree with BTW), triathlon is also a
sport where people of all abilities - first timer to pro - compete on the
same course, on the same day, at the same time.

With the above being a given, I don't want some guy who just bought his
first road bike and has only done one "ride for a cure" attempting to

draft

Quoted message said:

behind me. Heck, I don't want ME drafting behind an Olympic hopeful, I'm
just not that good and I value both my skin and theirs too much. Period.

Quoted message said:

Nonsense!

(....)

Quoted message said:

This security argument is void.

I have made some bike races, and I observed the following facts:
- road races may have much more racers than triathlon (seen some races
with
4000 people!).
- drafting is allowed
- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than
with
triathlete. Triathlons are usually done by well trained people (more
technique / financial investment / fitness is needed), as opposed to road
bike races, where every weekend warriors thinks he can participate (and so
it is!).
- the difference of ability between the first racers and the last is much
bigger on road races than on triathlons (a consequence of the previous
fact)
- the road racers drive on much more difficult roads than triathletes
(mountains, sharp curves, whereas most of the triathlons are quite flat)

And road race bikers or organizers don't consider suicide a better option
than triathletes...

So, your anecdotal observations at a handful of bike races make all of the
above "fact"? I think not. Come up with statistics from reliable
third-parties to support the above "facts" and maybe I'll engage in this
argument. I doubt you can do it.

John

Silver0l said:

- the average level of proficiency among road racers is much lower than with
triathlete.

If that's not a troll, it's at least an opinion based on some very
faulty generalizations (and obviously wrong of course). It would be
ludicrous to expect a triathlete to be "more proficient" at swimming,
running or cycling than someone who takes only one of those sports
seriously and spends a similar amount of time practicing it. Of
course, a triathlete will obvioulsy be more proficient at ALL of the
three sports than non-triathletes.

My own personal observations are that to be a decent triathlete, you
have to train yourself to be a one-trick pony on the bike. Nothing at
all wrong with that, but the group rides I used to do with half
triathletes and half roadies would always end up shedding all the
triathletes by the end, mainly due to the fact that the "jumps"
required an amount of speed and recovery that the triathletes simply
didn't need to train for in their "real world riding".

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame