Lactates Training

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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As much as That ! you are getting me worried. what do you exactly mean

by

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that ? the athlete could have a burnout ? or he could be physiscally

hurt

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?

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Or is it just a less good performance ?

Just as an illustration, a classic study done by Howat and Robson (1993 i think?) examined a squad
of age group swimmers. They found that the

training

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they were doing without individualisation (ie. everyone was following the same workout and
basically the same base time intervals), transalted to

33%

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of the sample being undertrained, 33% of the sample being trained

correctly

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and 33% of the sample being overtrained. in competition, therefore, only

1/3

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of the squad performed up to expectations.

Even though this study has been around ten years you still have groups of seniors, not just age
groupers, trained as a single squad - go figure. The problem goes deeper than that however, when
you consider that age groupers (early teens and down, have much less specific responses to
trianing. Seniors/adults are much more specialised, so they could be hurt much more

by

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such practices. Also, another study (i'll have to get back to you on that reference) found that
age groupers and seniors in three programs were

given

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the same relative rest to their work load, which is ludicrous considering that seniors will need
more recovery than early teens, pre-teens at the

same

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relative work load.

steve

Reminds me of what I have read about the former Eastern Bloc training where everyone comes in and
does the same thing. The survivors do well; the rest go home. The government just cared about
getting the medals and not really on developing athletes.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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I would say that lactate has little to do with DOMS. Take people

beginning

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a strength training program. Lactate levels in the blood and muscle

will

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be

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pretty low. I fall into the camp that considers DOMS to be a function

of

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microtrauma that is common in eccentric muscle actions. The tears cause

the

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body to respond by sending in white blood cells and other immune system reactions that lead to
edema; the edema then causes pain through

swelling.

Forgive the double reply, but i got disturbed 🙂

Again, note i said that presence of lactate was a contributing factor.

Where

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the subject has done something explosive, certinaly muscle damage is the source. My question to
you would be, why should we bother with a cool down after exercise and stretching if lactate isn't
a factor? more exercising (especially at the most effective level of approx. 30BBM) would just
exacerbate the damage already caused - even if blood flow is sustained by this, thereby allowing
platelets and other reperation mechanisms access to the damage, they couldn't function while the
muscle fibres were still contracting. Lactate affects recovery by causing less than optimal cell
environments to be cleared up before any repair can begin.

I would say the cooldown allows for buffering of the acidity to be sped up (compared
with just stopping) since the acidity is buffered primarily from ventilation. The
cooldown is not essential for reducing DOMS. Stretching to me has nothing to do with
lactate or acid levels, but maintaining/improving ROM. BTW, I have been trying to
decipher "BBM". I cannot, what is the abbreviation? (It could be the head cold I have
been battling for a few days). The keys to reducing DOMS to me are elevating the legs
(assuming DOMS in the legs) and cold water after the run. I have no idea what the
incident rate for DOMS is in swimmers (or rowers to be honest) unless it is when
athletes begin those sports or come back after a long lay off. When I was doing
triathlons, I cannot remember DOMS from swimming.

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Also, a supplemental to this, is that in the Bicarbonate loading studies i referred to elsewhere
on this string, as well as my own studies, subjects have reported (statistically significant
(p<0.05)), less muscle soreness

and

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stiffness after taking bicarbonate, vs the control trial. This was under a randomised crossover
design, so accrual of fatigue throughout the experimental phase was not a factor, with all
subjects performing a standardised cool down post experimental trial.

steve

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I would say the cooldown allows for buffering of the acidity

to

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be sped up (compared with just stopping) since the acidity is buffered primarily from ventilation.
The cooldown is not essential for reducing DOMS.

A cool down will contribute to easing DOMS, as will elevation of the legs (prevents blood pooling)
and icing, (prevents swelling and adema). However, as you rightly pointed out, the continued blood
flow and ventilation, will remove excess lactate, as i was explaining previously.

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BTW, I have been trying to decipher "BBM". I cannot, what is the abbreviation? (It could be the
head cold I have been battling for a

few

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days).

BBM = Beats Below Maximum heart rate

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Reminds me of what I have read about the former Eastern Bloc training

where

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everyone comes in and does the same thing. The survivors do well; the

rest

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go home. The government just cared about getting the medals and not

really

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on developing athletes.

In the case of the west, i would say its ignorance, (in an innocent way) that causes it here.
Look at the Australians, were individualising based on heart rate/stroke rate etc has been
standard for over two decades - look at their population compared to the USA, and how many world
class swimmers they produce. The rate of attrition in US Swimming through ignorant coaches is
enough to make you cry.

steve

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Thank you every one for your great help, It is great, I understand quite a bit better.

I didn't think that there would be so many answers so fast.

Nice to have a thread about RUNNING for a change.

🙂

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

"Lyndon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Sam said:

Scientists consider AT to be a concept more than a point. I would

be

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interested in seeing more on the ideas that training around the "AT" is a waste of time. I have
several studies showing that training at about 90

to

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105% of "AT" moves that curve to the right (improves power or speed at

LT).

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I know at one time Stephen Seiler was a proponent of such "extreme"

training

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(there is a term I heard once for this type of training and I cannot remember it right now).

See:

Londere, Ben R., MSSE, vol. 29, No. 6, pp. 837-843, 1997.

The issue is not that training at AT +/- 5% doesn't work; The issue is

that it

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doesn't seem to work as well as other things. It works with untrained

runners,

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but with trained runners, positive results in shifting the LTRS are only

seen

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for a few weeks: Then you have to run at a faster pace to keep improving.

A tempo or LT run is a "hard" workout: Most people can only do 3-4 miles

in 20

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minutes, and then you need a rest day (at least), so the actual amount of training at the LT is
actually quite small. But if the athlete does

high-end

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aerobic running a little below the AT, it might be slighly less efficient

per

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unit in the lab. The key point, though, is that the relative efficiency

in the

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lab is swamped by the much higher volume that an athlete can tolerate at

what

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Lydiard called maximum lactate steady state.

At the higher end, look at what Tim Noakes has to say about high intensity training in "Lore of
Running". HIT programs are very efficient at raising

the

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lactate setpoint, as Noakes puts it. Likewise, Veroneque Billat's vVO2

max

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stuff is also quite efficient in raising lactate threshold effects for

trained

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runners.

Billat, if I have read her stuff correctly, has runners running efforts of 10 to 20
min at 10K pace (which is right around LT pace) during training in addition to the
vVO2max stuff.

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So, if you are following the modern research, you end up with a larger

volume

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of training a little under the AT (~30 bpm below HR max), and a smaller

volume

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at the absolute high end (and I mean flat out), with very little

inbetween.

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Note, I am talking about trained runners, for whom VO2max and LT

improvements

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have largely played out. This is not about beginners or high school

athletes.

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It is also not about marathons, although the comparisons with Lydiard are obvious.

Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track

Coach

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Brooks Johnson

I left out some things from the previous response.

"Lyndon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Sam said:

Scientists consider AT to be a concept more than a point. I would

be

Quoted message said:

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interested in seeing more on the ideas that training around the "AT" is a waste of time. I have
several studies showing that training at about 90

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

105% of "AT" moves that curve to the right (improves power or speed at

LT).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know at one time Stephen Seiler was a proponent of such "extreme"

training

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(there is a term I heard once for this type of training and I cannot remember it right now).

See:

Londere, Ben R., MSSE, vol. 29, No. 6, pp. 837-843, 1997.

The issue is not that training at AT +/- 5% doesn't work; The issue is

that it

Quoted message said:

doesn't seem to work as well as other things. It works with untrained

runners,

Quoted message said:

but with trained runners, positive results in shifting the LTRS are only

seen

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for a few weeks: Then you have to run at a faster pace to keep improving.

Well, yeah. That is true for everything. Running at vVO2max improves after a few weeks
as well and then the intensity must be changed to create a new stimulus.

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A tempo or LT run is a "hard" workout: Most people can only do 3-4 miles

in 20

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minutes, and then you need a rest day (at least), so the actual amount of training at the LT is
actually quite small. But if the athlete does

high-end

Quoted message said:

aerobic running a little below the AT, it might be slighly less efficient

per

Quoted message said:

unit in the lab. The key point, though, is that the relative efficiency

in the

Quoted message said:

lab is swamped by the much higher volume that an athlete can tolerate at

what

Quoted message said:

Lydiard called maximum lactate steady state.

At the higher end, look at what Tim Noakes has to say about high intensity training in "Lore of
Running". HIT programs are very efficient at raising

the

Quoted message said:

lactate setpoint, as Noakes puts it. Likewise, Veroneque Billat's vVO2

max

Quoted message said:

stuff is also quite efficient in raising lactate threshold effects for

trained

Quoted message said:

runners.

So, if you are following the modern research, you end up with a larger

volume

Quoted message said:

of training a little under the AT (~30 bpm below HR max), and a smaller

volume

Quoted message said:

at the absolute high end (and I mean flat out), with very little

inbetween.

Quoted message said:

Note, I am talking about trained runners, for whom VO2max and LT

improvements

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have largely played out. This is not about beginners or high school

athletes.

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It is also not about marathons, although the comparisons with Lydiard are obvious.

In well trained runners VO2max may be maxed out, but LT will vary throughout the year. I have
not seen similar data for runners, but the AIS shows that endurance cyclists will see upwards
of a 30% increase in power at LT from the general prep period to the competition period. Since
these are professionals (or at least full time cyclists), they would be classified as
well-trained.

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Lyndon "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track

Coach

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Brooks Johnson

(Lyndon) said:

To me, the results of the HIT group (Noakes, Stepto, Hawley, Laursen, Tabata I,...) are quite
persuasive--and the results of Billat are quite persuasive. So, now, given that you have a fixed
training load for an athlete, and you are doing, say, one session of 15-20 minutes at vVO2 max
(this could be something like 30X200 or 15X400 @ 2K-3K time trial velocity with equal time
recovery), what do you do with the rest of the training?

I think I missed something. Isn't a vVO2max session "à la Billat" nearer to 15-20x200m and you
re-evaluate vVO2max when you can do 20 reps comfortably? Or is this a particularity of elite
runners, or shorter distance specialists?

(Lyndon) said:

pponline.co.uk0600b.htmOpen ↗

See the portion in the above about the 30-30 workout. There is a special case here whereby, if you
can get in 15-20 minutes at vVO@max pace, this is a very powerful workout.

OK missed that (or rather skipped over it to avoid death :-)

With the extra 8kg I'm currently lugging around, I'm down from 36" to 40"/200m and could only handle
an absolute max of 15x at the moment - with 12 being nearer the "could do a couple more if really
required" threshold which I don't like to go over.

i hope this is of continued interest to all three groups. i considered trimming it back to just
swimming, but the previous dialog did seem to come from at least two of the groups, so perhaps this
might still be of interest, despite being swim-focused:

diablo, your thoughts on swim training interest me greatly. Would you mind expanding on just a
couple of more points?

"diablo" <[email hidden]> pondered, puzzeled, prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and then,
in a very wise voice, sed: :

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If the set is written well, ensuring an adequate warm up period for aerobic metabolism, (descend
slowly, thereby avoiding net fatigue at the start of the set), you can maintain HR's close to max
for a longer period of time. Regularly, i have swimmers maintain a pace that derives HR's at or
around 10BBM for over 20 minutes. With discipline and controlled intra-set recovery, you can train
over 90% VO2Max for an extended period of time.

Would you mind giving an example of one or a few "well written" sets?

When you say above, "descend slowly..." i am confused. Are you saying that your warm up (the approx
3k you mention later) should descend? Or your actual VO2 set should begin by descending?

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This guaranteed, measured and considered rest is the problem with training at the supposed AnThr -
you're not training specifically at the pace you're going to compete at (swimmers, anyway) unless
you're a miler. So, sure you do increase aerobic capacity, but at the same rate as you do by
swimming below the AnThr, at about 40bbm

Ok, so you approximate AnThr at about 40 bbm. So, you actually do train in this range (you stated
your warm ups and your recovery days ranged from 50 to 35 bbm, right?).

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Bear in mind, VO2 accounts for about 80% of my quality workouts at peak, (early mid, late
mid-season) and about 50% into the last third of the season.

i'm not sure what you are saying here. VO2 accounts for about 80% of what?

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The other quality is straight race pace specific to their events. My swimmers will work out
maximally pretty much every 36 hours.

So, do you alternate 90% VO2Max/Race Pace quality days?

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Training is either done at a target heart rate (expressed as beats below max) with a rest interval
(5-15sec on VO2),

Certainly you can't keep them at such high intensity for a 20 minute set with only 5-15 sec rest?

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or ratios 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:5 depending on the distance of the rep, or at a recovery heart rate
(where they hit their target heart rate, then monitor their HR until it drops to a predetermined
level, (eg 20 below their target, 40 below their target) before starting again. This allows ample
and indivdualised rest within the set.

And all this is based around HR and bbm? They swim at a pre-determined HR and not a prescribed
speed? What do you use to to measure their HR's? Simple pulse check and pace clock? How long do they
have to check their pulse for (ie. what level of error are you willing to accept -- a ten sec check
can easily be off by 6 or even 12 bpm)? And what ages of athletes do you work with?

Do you at all work from an energy "zones" perspective (eg. zones 1 - 5, USA Swimming's REC,
EN1...etc)? From what you've said so far, it seems you train four zones:

Warm up/Base - 50 - 35 bbm VO2 - 10 bbm <-----is this right? Is there a range? Race Pace - max Super
Max - the builds and breakouts?

Do i have that right?

Is your warm up based on intervals? Or is that individualised as well?

i know i've asked quite a few questions, here, but i sure would appreciate your feedback.

--
chris

"Nothing is real."

"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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i hope this is of continued interest to all three groups. i considered trimming it back to just
swimming, but the previous dialog did seem to come from at least two of the groups, so perhaps
this might still be of interest, despite being swim-focused:

my apologies also to the runners and the crews out there if this isn't of interest.

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diablo, your thoughts on swim training interest me greatly. Would you mind expanding on just a
couple of more points?

certainly not, i love giving my soap box a good run out 🙂

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Would you mind giving an example of one or a few "well written" sets?

i'll give you one of my favourites and an explanation of why its constructed that way:

3 (2x 500) 20RI. 1st 500 stright, 2nd broken every 100 for a HR check. Target HR 20 BBm for 500,
10BBM for 100's.

this is a pair of 500's, the first straight, the second broken at each 100 to allow for a HR
assessment to be done (approx 5 seconds). The straight 500 allows the swimmer to reach steady state.
It is generally advised that the swimmer descends through the first 300 of the 500 to pace in the
first round, then sustains the pace they need throughout the rest of the set. Practically, the
swimmers rarely reach 100BBm on the first broken 500. usually after the first round they are were
they need to be. The broken 500 done at that intensity will produce some lactate (not a crippling
amount), and the straight 500 is done at such a pace that the lactate will simply sit there until
the next broken 500. In a sense it is tolerance set as much as VO2, but not in the classic sense.

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When you say above, "descend slowly..." i am confused. Are you saying that your warm up (the
approx 3k you mention later) should descend? Or your actual VO2 set should begin by descending?

The warm up prior to a VO2/Race Pace set will always descend slowly. probably base for the first
2/3rds and the final third will go down to 50's descend, followed by 25's build and break, and or
continuing to hold the pace they'll use in the set.

In terms of descending a VO2 Max set, this would be way too time consuming. as i described in the
set above, they naturally will have to climb to the target intensity...its not a case of immediately
sprinting, and is actually pretty much self governing.. In Race Pace sets some swimmers (selected
200 event specialists and 100 specialists) *will* max out immediately, as this is the most efficient
way of stimulating the glycolytic system, which is of primary importance to them.

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Ok, so you approximate AnThr at about 40 bbm. So, you actually do train in this range (you stated
your warm ups and your recovery days ranged from 50 to 35 bbm, right?).

No, i approximate AnThr to somewhere around 20-30bbm. I aim to stay below that when working base
(approx 40bbm) and recovery is much lower (around 50-60bbm).

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Bear in mind, VO2 accounts for about 80% of my quality workouts at peak, (early mid, late
mid-season) and

about

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50% into the last third of the season.

i'm not sure what you are saying here. VO2 accounts for about 80% of what?

if i have twelve workouts a week, 6 of them will be VO2 or Race, the other 6 as a balanced recovery.
In early season, 80% of my quality workouts in a 3week cycle will be VO2. In the last third of the
season, i will do as much VO2 as i do Race in the cycle, still balancing the rest, so 25% VO2, 25%
Race, 50% recovery.

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So, do you alternate 90% VO2Max/Race Pace quality days?

it depends where i am in the season, but yes, i like everything balanced.

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Certainly you can't keep them at such high intensity for a 20 minute set with only 5-15 sec rest?

you certainly can.

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And all this is based around HR and bbm? They swim at a pre-determined HR and not a prescribed
speed? What do you use to to measure their HR's? Simple pulse check and pace clock? How long do
they have to check their pulse for (ie. what level of error are you willing to accept -- a ten sec
check can easily be off by 6 or even 12 bpm)? And what ages of athletes do you work with?

You know yourself that holding 1.02's in a set of 100's is fine one day, another day like death. If
the swimmer is simply going by heart rate, (which reflects state of fatigue, sickness etc) you go at
the pace that is appropriate that day, all the while ensuring you are styimulating what you want to
stimulate. Also, times will fluctuate as you gain fitness, carry/lose fatigue...HR's will always be
standardised.

HR's are measured using Polar HR monitors. The system we use enables every swimmer in each lane to
operate on this individualised system. I don't want to go into details of how we managed to bring
that about, as we're launching a consultancy 😉 Every swimmer has an established MaxHR, and knows
what they should be doing on every set this way. Its both inter- and intra-individualised. The whole
system can be introduced for less than $300, and will service a squad of about 4 swimmers x lanes
adequately (more if its a LC pool).

The HR monitors are ECG accurate. Taking heart rates from the pace clock,
i.e. palpation, is published and accepted to be grossly erroneous above 130bpm.

I work with ages ranginf from 13 to 18 currently (club setting), prior to that i worked with
collegiate swimmers. Both organisations producing NCAA/Senior National qualifiers.

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Do you at all work from an energy "zones" perspective (eg. zones 1 - 5, USA Swimming's REC,
EN1...etc)? From what you've said so far, it seems you train four zones:

The guidelines set forth by USA Swimming are dubious on many counts, and i have not followed them
for a long time. Just look at how they prescribe VO2 Training - rest intervals (or built into a
training interval) of between 30 and 60 seconds - consider how quickly the heart rate drops in that
time - as much as 60-70 beats...that has to be regained all over again, so on reps of 300, you waste
the first 150 - 200 getting close to maximum pace again. Its a waste of time. EN2 as
threshold...well, you know my thoughts on threshold training...lactate tolerance, lactate
production? very shakey terminology and set parameters also.

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Warm up/Base - 50 - 35 bbm VO2 - 10 bbm <-----is this right? Is there a range? Race Pace - max
Super Max - the builds and breakouts?

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Do i have that right?

Pretty much correct yes. In VO2 I'm looking for them to get within 10-5bbm and sustain form and
technique while enduring the pace. In addition to that there is power work other than builds/breaks
using resistance at maximum effort in short bursts.

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Is your warm up based on intervals? Or is that individualised as well?

Warm Up is standardised, sometimes on intervals, other times just on rest intervals. Cool down
is standardised also, for example, 8 x 100 e 10RI Ascending (2 @ 30bbm, 2 @ 40bbm, 2 @ 50bbm,
4 @ 60bbm)

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i know i've asked quite a few questions, here, but i sure would appreciate your feedback.

I hope that was what you were looking for.

Steve

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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i hope this is of continued interest to all three groups. i considered trimming it back to just
swimming, but the previous dialog did seem to come from at least two of the groups, so perhaps
this might still be of interest, despite being swim-focused:

my apologies also to the runners and the crews out there if this isn't of interest.

as a rower, I am still following this thread, albeit with some incredulity.

We use many of the same terms as "Diablo", but his regime sounds very different to that advocated by
our governing body, and almost every published rowing coaches thoughts. If I understand him
correctly, he is advocating a preference for just 2 training bands, one very low intensity, and the
other at race pace. We have 6 training bands, mainly ignoring HR, due to the accuracy of rowing
machines in estimating watts.

However, I find his arguments compelling and convincing... am I alone in this?

I do know that the GB swim team have made massive improvements since their new Aussie coach has
upped their overall mileage, have they also moved to this type of training?

Finally, one word of caution. Rowing events at the elite level are all over 2K and roughly between
5:30 and 8:00 (mins) in duration... is that why we train differently? that would bring us into line
with 800m specialist swimmers(?)

so Diablo.... fancy having a stab at an example training prog for crew? You may create a
few waves....

"Neil Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

We have

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6 training bands, mainly ignoring HR, due to the accuracy of rowing

machines

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in estimating watts.

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I do know that the GB swim team have made massive improvements since their new Aussie coach has
upped their overall mileage, have they also moved to this type of training?

i heard three lectures by arguably the best coach in swimming, and the aussie in question, Bill
Sweetenham in San Diego this fall, and he too has moved in a direction similar to this. However, i
would state that his overall success has been in making the mediocre coaches, administrators and
swimmers rise to the level of the best, not cater to to the majority...but yes, his training
paradigm is similar in ways to the one i employ.

on another note, the greatest speaker on the subject of coaching. for those in the UK, he reminds me
of Madge Bishop from neighbours...typically gruff with a fantastic 'who cares what you think' sense
of humour. he was refreshing in the face of hideous mediocrity from other speakers.

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Finally, one word of caution. Rowing events at the elite level are all

over

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2K and roughly between 5:30 and 8:00 (mins) in duration... is that why we train differently? that
would bring us into line with 800m specialist swimmers(?)

Swimming events (at least pool, the most common concern) at their longest are the 1650/1500 lasting
approximately 15 minutes...i would say you're somewhere between the 800 and the 1500. I would say
that devlopment of VO2Max could be done how i propose it, but the development of the glycolytic
system would be of secondary importance, whereas to swimmers, its primary. with running its a little
easier - for the same time competing, (eg, 20 seconds, 50 seconds, 1.40) our distances are a quarter
of theirs. that is to say our 50 free is comparable to their 200, our 100 is comparable to their 400
etc. for rowing, i regard your ability to measure power output continuously with great jealousy,
although i would still attempt to work based off of MaxHR considering you are primarily aerobic
machines. Training in such a way could possibly be of a higher value to you than you estimate.

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so Diablo.... fancy having a stab at an example training prog for crew?

You

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may create a few waves....

while i don't think my modality is ground breaking to the point that i expect everyone to convert, i
would be interested to see what HR a typical high intensity set illicits, and how close that is to
the individula's MaxHR. next time such a session is conducted, and if you have a HR monitor
available, maybe take a look, or maybe even try the set i described in that previous post (converted
to times, 500 takes approx 5.30, and 100's
1.05)...see whether they CAN complete it at maximum intensity. my bet is that with encouragement,
they can, and their HR's will remin mostly between 20 and 5bbm over the course of the set.

steve

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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i hope this is of continued interest to all three groups. i considered trimming it back to just
swimming, but the previous dialog did seem to come from at least two of the groups, so perhaps
this might still be of interest, despite being swim-focused:

my apologies also to the runners and the crews out there if this isn't of interest.

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diablo, your thoughts on swim training interest me greatly. Would you mind expanding on just a
couple of more points?

certainly not, i love giving my soap box a good run out 🙂

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Would you mind giving an example of one or a few "well written" sets?

i'll give you one of my favourites and an explanation of why its constructed that way:

3 (2x 500) 20RI. 1st 500 stright, 2nd broken every 100 for a HR check. Target HR 20 BBm for 500,
10BBM for 100's.

this is a pair of 500's, the first straight, the second broken at each 100 to allow for a HR
assessment to be done (approx 5 seconds). The straight 500 allows the swimmer to reach steady
state. It is generally advised that the swimmer descends through the first 300 of the 500 to pace
in the first round, then sustains the pace they need throughout the rest of the set. Practically,
the swimmers rarely reach 100BBm on the first broken 500. usually after the first round they are
were they need to be. The broken 500 done at that intensity will produce some lactate (not a
crippling amount), and the straight 500 is done at such a pace that the lactate will simply sit
there until the next broken 500. In a sense it is tolerance set as much as VO2, but not in the
classic sense.

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When you say above, "descend slowly..." i am confused. Are you saying that your warm up (the
approx 3k you mention later) should descend? Or your actual VO2 set should begin by descending?

The warm up prior to a VO2/Race Pace set will always descend slowly. probably base for the first
2/3rds and the final third will go down to 50's descend, followed by 25's build and break, and or
continuing to hold the pace they'll use in the set.

In terms of descending a VO2 Max set, this would be way too time consuming. as i described in
the set above, they naturally will have to climb to the target intensity...its not a case of
immediately sprinting, and is actually pretty much self governing.. In Race Pace sets some
swimmers (selected 200 event specialists and 100 specialists) *will* max out immediately, as
this is the most efficient way of stimulating the glycolytic system, which is of primary
importance to them.

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Ok, so you approximate AnThr at about 40 bbm. So, you actually do train in this range (you
stated your warm ups and your recovery days ranged from 50 to 35 bbm, right?).

No, i approximate AnThr to somewhere around 20-30bbm. I aim to stay below that when working base
(approx 40bbm) and recovery is much lower (around 50-60bbm).

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Bear in mind, VO2 accounts for about 80% of my quality workouts at peak, (early mid, late
mid-season) and

about

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50% into the last third of the season.

i'm not sure what you are saying here. VO2 accounts for about 80% of what?

if i have twelve workouts a week, 6 of them will be VO2 or Race, the other 6 as a balanced
recovery. In early season, 80% of my quality workouts in a 3week cycle will be VO2. In the last
third of the season, i will do as much VO2 as i do Race in the cycle, still balancing the rest, so
25% VO2, 25% Race, 50% recovery.

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So, do you alternate 90% VO2Max/Race Pace quality days?

it depends where i am in the season, but yes, i like everything balanced.

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Certainly you can't keep them at such high intensity for a 20 minute set with only 5-15
sec rest?

you certainly can.

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And all this is based around HR and bbm? They swim at a pre-determined HR and not a prescribed
speed? What do you use to to measure their HR's? Simple pulse check and pace clock? How long do
they have to check their pulse for (ie. what level of error are you willing to accept -- a ten
sec check can easily be off by 6 or even 12 bpm)? And what ages of athletes do you work with?

You know yourself that holding 1.02's in a set of 100's is fine one day, another day like death.
If the swimmer is simply going by heart rate, (which reflects state of fatigue, sickness etc) you
go at the pace that is appropriate that day, all the while ensuring you are styimulating what you
want to stimulate. Also, times will fluctuate as you gain fitness, carry/lose fatigue...HR's will
always be standardised.

HR's are measured using Polar HR monitors. The system we use enables every swimmer in each lane to
operate on this individualised system. I don't want to go into details of how we managed to bring
that about, as we're launching a consultancy 😉 Every swimmer has an established MaxHR, and knows
what they should be doing on every set this way. Its both inter- and intra-individualised. The
whole system can be introduced for less than $300, and will service a squad of about 4 swimmers x
lanes adequately (more if its a LC pool).

Very intelligent questions and answers! Nice to read about coaching Couple of questions: An entire
team for $300.00? Sounds great. I suppose that each athlete will have to purchase a HR monitor in
addition. IMO, polar works great for women, poorly for men, your thoughts? Do you get interference
btrwn HR monitors? What club do you coach at?

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The HR monitors are ECG accurate. Taking heart rates from the pace clock,
i.e. palpation, is published and accepted to be grossly erroneous above 130bpm.

I work with ages ranginf from 13 to 18 currently (club setting), prior to that i worked with
collegiate swimmers. Both organisations producing NCAA/Senior National qualifiers.

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Do you at all work from an energy "zones" perspective (eg. zones 1 - 5, USA Swimming's REC,
EN1...etc)? From what you've said so far, it seems you train four zones:

The guidelines set forth by USA Swimming are dubious on many counts, and i have not followed them
for a long time. Just look at how they prescribe VO2 Training - rest intervals (or built into a
training interval) of between 30 and 60 seconds - consider how quickly the heart rate drops in
that time - as much as 60-70 beats...that has to be regained all over again, so on reps of 300,
you waste the first 150 - 200 getting close to maximum pace again. Its a waste of time. EN2 as
threshold...well, you know my thoughts on threshold training...lactate tolerance, lactate
production? very shakey terminology and set parameters also.

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Warm up/Base - 50 - 35 bbm VO2 - 10 bbm <-----is this right? Is there a range? Race Pace - max
Super Max - the builds and breakouts?

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Do i have that right?

Pretty much correct yes. In VO2 I'm looking for them to get within 10-5bbm and sustain form and
technique while enduring the pace. In addition to that there is power work other than
builds/breaks using resistance at maximum effort in short bursts.

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Is your warm up based on intervals? Or is that individualised as well?

Warm Up is standardised, sometimes on intervals, other times just on rest intervals. Cool down
is standardised also, for example, 8 x 100 e 10RI Ascending (2 @ 30bbm, 2 @ 40bbm, 2 @ 50bbm, 4
@ 60bbm)

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i know i've asked quite a few questions, here, but i sure would appreciate your feedback.

I hope that was what you were looking for.

Steve

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Very intelligent questions and answers! Nice to read about coaching Couple of questions: An entire
team for $300.00? Sounds great. I suppose that each athlete will have to purchase a HR monitor in
addition. IMO, polar works great for women, poorly for men, your thoughts? Do you get interference
btrwn HR monitors? What club do you coach at?

Yes, an entire team for approximately $300. And no, each athlete does not have to purchase a
monitor. Again, i don't want to give too much away 😉

I've found Polar to be outstanding in terms of accuracy and longevity. With men i find them just as
effective as women. The only problem i have encountered is the suits women wear. Some use suits made
of a poly-mix. The plastic materials sometimes affect the conductivity of the electrodes, however,
it can be gotten around fairly easily...and some of them wear two suits, which is easily gotten
around also: take the drag suit off when you get to the heart rate work.

Currently, i coach at Lake Country Swim Team in Wisconsin.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Very intelligent questions and answers! Nice to read about coaching Couple of questions: An
entire team for $300.00? Sounds great. I suppose that each athlete will have to purchase a HR
monitor in addition. IMO, polar works great for women, poorly for men, your thoughts? Do you get
interference btrwn HR monitors? What club do you coach at?

Yes, an entire team for approximately $300. And no, each athlete does not have to purchase a
monitor. Again, i don't want to give too much away 😉

I've found Polar to be outstanding in terms of accuracy and longevity. With men i find them just
as effective as women. The only problem i have encountered is the suits women wear. Some use suits
made of a poly-mix. The plastic materials sometimes affect the conductivity of the electrodes,
however, it can be gotten around fairly easily...and some of them wear two suits, which is easily
gotten around also: take the drag suit off when you get to the heart rate work.

Currently, i coach at Lake Country Swim Team in Wisconsin.

You must then be using the treffene model of HR monitor? Lake Country Swim club, I remember you guys
had some quick boys recently?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You must then be using the treffene model of HR monitor? Lake Country Swim club, I remember you
guys had some quick boys recently?

I worked a little with bob a few years back ( i remember his dinosaur of a HR monitor with wires
and electrodes all over the place!)...the monitors we use are just common or garden Polar HR
monitors that you can get pretty much anywhere. As for quick boys, yeah we have a couple, working
toards the trials 🙂