Lactates Training

"diablo" <[email hidden]> pondered, puzzeled, prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and then,
in a very wise voice, sed: :

<snip>

Quoted message said:

if you'd like to discuss this matter further, or would like specific literature regarding this
topic, please email me.

Please don't email him. The subject is relevant to the group(s) and further discussion would be
quite informative.

--
chris

"Nothing is real."

"diablo" <[email hidden]> pondered, puzzeled, prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and then,
in a very wise voice, sed: :

Quoted message said:

This is very true, again however, if the set is written well, and your weekly cycle is constructed
to provide at least 36 hours between VO2Max sets

Interesting post. What do you do during the practices between each VO2Max sets? All of it at 50 - 35
BBM? What kind of average yardage to you do each week? What kind of peak yardage do you build up to?

--
chris

"Nothing is real."

In rec.running diablo said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.running diablo <[email hidden]> wrote:

--Could you please tell me what evidence you have seen that training hard can overcome the
buffering capacity of the body? This seems extremely far-fetched to me as a biochemist. Your body
has ENOURMOUS capacity to buffer acids. By the time you changed the pH enough to affect the
things you mention, you would be dead.

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There is a great deal of literature about the subject of altering the acid base balance in order
to sustain high intensity exercise. The vast majority of this research has been done on sodium
bicarbonate loading, but also citric acid supplementation has been examined to a lesser extent. As
glycogen is partially metabolised through glycolysis, it results in net hydrogen ion accumulation
within the muscle cell. Bicarbonate, a naturally occuring buffer causes the H ions to cross the
cell membrane to balance this, thus neatralizing the pH levels within the cell and avoiding
intracellular acidosis. Bicarbonate cannot cross the cell membrane due to its size.

Quoted message said:

if the production of H ions is so great (in sustained maximal exercise for example), the
discordant proportions do cause net accumulation, and enzymatic function is impaired due to the
ensuing pH drop within the muscle cell. If you were correct, and the body did have a massive
capacity to buffer pH levels, fatigue would only occur when the relative fuel source was
exhausted. anyone who has tried to sustain maximal exercise can tell you this is not the case 🙂

---Interesting...although you can become fatigued from extending yourself past the ability of your
body to supply oxygen to your muscles, thereby severely limiting the ability of the muscles to
sustain maximal exercise. This is the biggest reason runners slow down, not necessarily lactate
buildup. The other problem I forsee (but don't have extensive experience with) is that don't loading
buffering agent affect the blood? ie, oxygen is released from hemoglobin due to a slight shift in
pH. I would think anything that messes with this too much would be problematic. Thanks for the
literature refs.... Andy Hass

In rec.running diablo said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.running diablo <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

---To expand upon Steve's comments in my own words... Training right at lactate threshhold is
thought to stimulate the body in such a way that, over time, the lactate threshhold is lower (ie
you can work harder without producing lactate).

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This is the old mainstay theory that has haunted training methodology for too long IMO. see below
for my thoughts.

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If you work too hard, you will not

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be able to sustain the effort because lactate will accumulate.

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If the set is written well, ensuring an adequate warm up period for aerobic metabolism, (descend
slowly, thereby avoiding net fatigue at the start of the set), you can maintain HR's close to max
for a longer period of time. Regularly, i have swimmers maintain a pace that derives HR's at or
around 10BBM for over 20 minutes. With discipline and controlled intra-set recovery, you can train
over 90% VO2Max for an extended period of time.

Quoted message said:

Also, your

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body will begin to concentrate on anaerobic pathway training at the

expense

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of aerobic development. While this could be useful for peaking for a

race,

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in everyday training damaging your aerobic ability is bad so you use this type of training
sparingly. Training at very easy efforts much slower than threshhold has lots of

other

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benefits (muscle development, cardiac/aerobic development, mitochondrial number increases, enzyme
changes) that can be gotten without hard

effort...

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this is why this can form the majority of your training and you can still get better. Andy Hass

Quoted message said:

This is very true, again however, if the set is written well, and your weekly cycle is constructed
to provide at least 36 hours between VO2Max sets this will not be the case. My swimmers perform
routinely, a 45-60min warm up (approx 3K yards) of base, 50-35BBM work every VO2 session, which
maintains the aerobic capacity you are talking about, even if the VO2 work isn't, which one would
assume it is. Every 36 hours, they perform VO2 sets again. I do not subscribe to the old school
beat them constantly into submission style.

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This guaranteed, measured and considered rest is the problem with training at the supposed AnThr -
you're not training specifically at the pace you're going to compete at (swimmers, anyway) unless
you're a miler. So, sure you do increase aerobic capacity, but at the same rate as you do by
swimming below the AnThr, at about 40bbm (above the Ventilatroy Thr)....the only difference is,
you burn up more glycogen, and elongate the recovery period. Essentially, thats why its a black
hole - it doesn't give you race pace experience, doesn't afford any tolerance, but does rack up
fatigue faster. For my money, i'd rather train at VO2 and know i'm getting something for the
damage i cause the swimmer...but with the amount of rest thats built in, it doesn't happen.

Quoted message said:

I've had fantasitic results with this ever since i took the plunge and ditched AnThr from my box
of tricks. all i can say is Go Salo...

Quoted message said:

my two cents 🙂

---Again interesting, though it makes me wonder how different it works between the sports. I don't
know many runners who can do large amounts of VO2 work without frying themselves rather quickly.
Maybe there is a difference between sports that explains this... Andy Hass

"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Interesting post. What do you do during the practices between each VO2Max sets? All of it at 50
- 35 BBM? What kind of average yardage to you do each week? What kind of peak yardage do you
build up to?

The practices between sets are recovery, and done as you rightly guessed mostly at 40-50bbm. Again,
we sustain the long warm up (up to 3K mixed free and IM), and then go further at that intensity.
Everyday however, we go builds and breakouts (three cycles) covering about 300 yards on .30 or .40
depending whether its free or primary. Easy kick, easy pull, all thrown in there.

Average yardage per 2 hour workout will only get as high as 7K, and then only for a short while in
the cycle., Generally, i'm looking for 5-6 on recovery days, and 4.5-5.5 on VO2 Days. Bear in mind,
VO2 accounts for about 80% of my quality workouts at peak, (early mid, late mid-season) and about
50% into the last third of the season. The other quality is straight race pace specific to their
events. My swimmers will work out maximally pretty much every 36 hours.

Training is either done at a target heart rate (expressed as beats below max) with a rest interval
(5-15sec on VO2), or ratios 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:5 depending on the distance of the rep, or at a
recovery heart rate (where they hit their target heart rate, then monitor their HR until it drops to
a predetermined level, (eg 20 below their target, 40 below their target) before starting again. This
allows ample and indivdualised rest within the set.

Yardage is of little interest to me - quality is. I'm comfortable that i am covering their base
endurance needs with the long warm up, and i know i'm getting quality work done elsewhere. Garbage
yardage is never on the menu. The only difference between distance swimmers and mid distance is the
period of season they'll concentrate on VO2Max vs Specific Pace sets.

If i had to answer the yardage question, i'd have to look back through my workouts. As i start the
session, i have an objective of stimulating a system. as long as i do that for the appropriate
amount of time, i'm happy.

Steve

In article said:

In rec.running diablo <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

---Again interesting, though it makes me wonder how different it works between the sports. I don't
know many runners who can do large amounts of VO2 work without frying themselves rather quickly.
Maybe there is a difference between sports that explains this... Andy Hass

Having played with other cardio besides running -- the high impact nature and the amount of
eccentric work involved in running makes it harder to sustain high intensities than it is in other
activity. The muscle damage and stress on connective tissue, bones and cartilage is much greater in
running than in most other endurance activity. I wouldn't want to do a 1 hour tempo run every day,
but one can do that with other cardio quite easily.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having played with other cardio besides running -- the high impact nature

and

Quoted message said:

the amount of eccentric work involved in running makes it harder to

sustain

Quoted message said:

high intensities than it is in other activity.

eccentric work? unless you're running downhill, its not much different than any other continuous
sport, (cycling, swimming or rowing), theres a concentric propulsive phase and an eccentric
recovering phase. High impact, absolutely. However, Running at AnThr pace and VO2Max pace...well,
both are still a hard pace, and will put stress on your body. I'm sure runners have their own
solutions to avoid this. However, this doesn't negate the benefits of training at 90%+ VO2Max vs
AnThr as a training modality.

Quoted message said:

The muscle damage and stress on connective tissue, bones and cartilage is much greater in
running than in

most

Quoted message said:

other endurance activity. I wouldn't want to do a 1 hour tempo run every

day,

Quoted message said:

but one can do that with other cardio quite easily.

Actually, and i can only talk for swimming here, its harder to get to higher heart rates in
swimming. generally for any given expenditure, HR's in swimming are 10-12 beats below what they are
in running, due to a) the prone position of the body assisting venous return, and b) the hydrostatic
pressure of the water assisting venous return. Therefore, to get closer to VO2Max, they have to work
harder than a runner would, (haven't seen comparative literature with rowing and cycling). Add to
this the fact that the pool environment is often akin to exercising in warm weather, with the
hypoxic component of swimming, and its arguable that its far more stressful for swimmers to train at
VO2Max than other sports.

steve

I am sorry if my question seemed misplaced for you, But apparently it was accepted by others.

"Full tongue kiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[censored].

s k harker said:

Is there ANY need for the juvinile [censored]? This post is relevant to all 3 sports on the
newsgroup regardless of which sport the guy asking for advice does, so unless you have something
constructive and relevant to say, keep quiet!

Thank you every one for your great help, It is great, I understand quite a bit better.

I didn't think that there would be so many answers so fast.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Could you please help me ?

{snip for brevity}

Andrew - a great question. One that requires a lengthy answer, also.

That is shure.

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the target velocity your trainer is trying to get you to hold (approximately 2-3 m/mol) is a
benchmark in exercise physiology that is 'supposed to' represent something called the anaerboic
threshold, (aka Onset of Blood Lactic Acid or OBLA).

In 'theory' if you can train just below the anaerobic threshold, you're training at a high
intensity, but are not producing lactate, (which induces fatigue through acidosis), and therefore
can train longer without burning out. If you did a progressive step test for example, and
monitored lactates after every rep, you would see at a certain point the curve would rise steeply
- you're trying to train just below this rise. Obviously, not many clubs have the facility or the
expertise to conduct such tests. To combat this, a massive bank of data taken from the former
eastern bloc athletes (east germany, ussr etc) and examined - they determined that lactate
concentrations of approximately 2m/mol equated to AnThr. Thats why your trainer is telling you to
train at that intensity.

Our trainer got his training plans from a former DDR (ex-communist germany) rowing trainer.

Quoted message said:

In your case, there are a few different reasons why your teammates changed as they did, and
without knowing the athlete, i can't even begin to guess. What may help is if i can tell you about
lactate and what affects it:

EVERYTHING.

Lactate as an index for exercise prescription has serious flaws in it. Diet, sickness, sleep
patterns, how much fatigue you're carrying, emotional state, air/water temperature, time of day,
color of your underwear (not quite but you get the picture)...they all can appreciably affect how
much lactate you produce when you exercise at a set intensity. Its a bench mark - a rough guide -
nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps on that day you tested someone had a late night the night
before - the guy who dropped time for a given lactate, maybe the week with his friends gave him a
much needed rest so he was fresher when he tested than the rest of you.

Oh, I thought that it was more precise than that, certainly when one sees the amount of necessary
material for lactates, compared to HR.

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Lactate testing has its uses, but they are far more limited than the general coaching/athlete body
believes them to be. I could go on longer on this subject, in as much as there is belief now that
the anaerobic threshold doesn't even exist as such, and training at that intensity is a waste of
time - a training black hole so to speak, (Normal Jones). i for one, only train my athletes either
at maximum effort (either sustained for VO2 Max, or shorter for power) or a very very low
intensity.anyway, i digress.

Yes our trainer has told us also that there was a "black hole but it is at a somewhat higher
intensity, between 4-5 m/mol (that is my estimate, because we have never done any lactate test in
that aera)

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i hope you found at least some of this helpful - in a sentence, don't worry too much about what
others are doing, and don't believe that a lactate value at that time on that day in that
situation is a golden, unbreakable standard.

Yes you did help me quite a bit, okay, I'll know it for later, next time I'll just take it as a
indication.

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if you have any further specific questions, i'd love to help you out. just email me. 🙂

steve

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

it for exercise intensity. When testing athletes for "LT", I prefer

As I come from a french-speaking country, could you perhaps tell me what does "LT" mean ?

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem with using a fixed number is that it does not allow

for

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individualization.

Not only does it not provide for inter-individualisation, but neither does it account for
intra-individualisation. Some people claim that using the lactate tables is preferable if you have
nothing else - i say, no matter what you have, they're erroneous to a damaging degree. the only
difference is whether you have the experience, the equipment and the knowledge to understand this,
and recognise it before it really ruins 2/3's of the athlete body.

As much as That ! you are getting me worried. what do you exactly mean by that ? the athlete could
have a burnout ? or he could be physiscally hurt ? Or is it just a less good performance ?

"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

it for exercise intensity. When testing athletes for "LT", I prefer

As I come from a french-speaking country, could you perhaps tell me what does "LT" mean ?

I apologize, "LT" means lactate threshold, a term many use interchangeably with AT (anaerobic
threshold).

"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As much as That ! you are getting me worried. what do you exactly mean by that ? the athlete could
have a burnout ? or he could be physiscally hurt

?

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Or is it just a less good performance ?

Just as an illustration, a classic study done by Howat and Robson (1993 i think?) examined a squad
of age group swimmers. They found that the training they were doing without individualisation (ie.
everyone was following the same workout and basically the same base time intervals), transalted to
33% of the sample being undertrained, 33% of the sample being trained correctly and 33% of the
sample being overtrained. in competition, therefore, only 1/3 of the squad performed up to
expectations.

Even though this study has been around ten years you still have groups of seniors, not just age
groupers, trained as a single squad - go figure. The problem goes deeper than that however, when you
consider that age groupers (early teens and down, have much less specific responses to trianing.
Seniors/adults are much more specialised, so they could be hurt much more by such practices. Also,
another study (i'll have to get back to you on that reference) found that age groupers and seniors
in three programs were given the same relative rest to their work load, which is ludicrous
considering that seniors will need more recovery than early teens, pre-teens at the same relative
work load.

steve

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

if you'd like to discuss this matter further, or would like specific literature regarding this
topic, please email me. I did both my thesis and dissertation on this topic, and would love to
help. If you'd simply like to read more about it without personal correspondence, i would direct
you to the following studies:

Wilkes, Gledhill & Smyth (1983), Med Sci Sp Ex, 15 (4) McNaughton (1992). J Sp Sci 10, 415-423
Jones, Sutton, Taylor, Toewes (1977) J App Phys (43) 959-964 Jones, Sutton, Taylor, Toewes (1981)
Cl Sci (61) 331-338 McNaughton & Thompson (2001) J Sp Med Phys Fit (41) 456-462

These studies, including the seminal field-based study by Wilkes et al will provide you with the
physiological mechanism, as well as strategies and history of alkalinisers as a supplement to
improving exercise performance. Further literature may be found in the reference section as you
see fit.

Where can one find those studies ? is it on a specific web-site ?

Could you perhaps send me your thesis ? I am quite interested in seeing it, or don't you have it on
your computer ?

Thank you for these references

Andrew cassels_at_bluewin.ch

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lactate still represents a problem in
as much as being a contributor to DOMS.

Hasn't this now been discredited?

DOMS is still a phantom in terms of isolating exactly what causes the damage. The favoured
theories were 'still' lactate, and also damage to the muscle fibres. Certainly small tears caused
during vigorous exercise do contribute to the pain, but it is augmented by the fact that any
lactate remaining in the muscle cell will [censored] recovery. The cell spends more

time

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getting back to optimal conditions, and less time reparing damaged tissue. There are studies that
attepmt other views, and having read some of it,

i'm

Quoted message said:

skeptical of their findings, but then again thats always the case i suppose..

steve

I would say that lactate has little to do with DOMS. Take people beginning a strength training
program. Lactate levels in the blood and muscle will be pretty low. I fall into the camp that
considers DOMS to be a function of microtrauma that is common in eccentric muscle actions. The tears
cause the body to respond by sending in white blood cells and other immune system reactions that
lead to edema; the edema then causes pain through swelling.

People who have not hiked in a while and end up doing some serious downhill hiking will also get
DOMS without high lactate levels.

"Andrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Where can one find those studies ? is it on a specific web-site ?

those references are all in peer-reviewed professional sports medicine journals. the easiest way to
find them would be to hit the library of your nearest college - chances are they'll have at a
minimum Journal of Sports Science and Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise (ACSM journal).
aside from that there are some web-based libraries that you can get literature from at a small cost.

Quoted message said:

Could you perhaps send me your thesis ? I am quite interested in seeing

it,

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or don't you have it on your computer ?

if you're interested, i can send you the whole text...email me privately and i can get it to you as
soon as you want it.

Quoted message said:

Thank you for these references

you're welcome 🙂

steve

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say that lactate has little to do with DOMS. Take people

beginning

Quoted message said:

a strength training program.

{snip}

note i said it contributed, not that it was the overriding factor.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say that lactate has little to do with DOMS. Take people

beginning

Quoted message said:

a strength training program. Lactate levels in the blood and muscle will

be

Quoted message said:

pretty low. I fall into the camp that considers DOMS to be a function of microtrauma that is
common in eccentric muscle actions. The tears cause

the

Quoted message said:

body to respond by sending in white blood cells and other immune system reactions that lead to
edema; the edema then causes pain through

swelling.

Forgive the double reply, but i got disturbed 🙂

Again, note i said that presence of lactate was a contributing factor. Where the subject has done
something explosive, certinaly muscle damage is the source. My question to you would be, why should
we bother with a cool down after exercise and stretching if lactate isn't a factor? more exercising
(especially at the most effective level of approx. 30BBM) would just exacerbate the damage already
caused - even if blood flow is sustained by this, thereby allowing platelets and other reperation
mechanisms access to the damage, they couldn't function while the muscle fibres were still
contracting. Lactate affects recovery by causing less than optimal cell environments to be cleared
up before any repair can begin.

Also, a supplemental to this, is that in the Bicarbonate loading studies i referred to elsewhere on
this string, as well as my own studies, subjects have reported (statistically significant (p<0.05)),
less muscle soreness and stiffness after taking bicarbonate, vs the control trial. This was under a
randomised crossover design, so accrual of fatigue throughout the experimental phase was not a
factor, with all subjects performing a standardised cool down post experimental trial.

steve

In article said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Having played with other cardio besides running -- the high impact nature

and

Quoted message said:

the amount of eccentric work involved in running makes it harder to

sustain

Quoted message said:

high intensities than it is in other activity.

eccentric work? unless you're running downhill,

There is nothing really special downhill running as opposed to running. It does emphasise the
eccentric a little more than flat running, but not that much.

Quoted message said:

its not much different than any other continuous sport, (cycling, swimming or rowing), theres a

Substantially different to cycling, for example. You will get more DOMS from running than you will
with cycling. Cycling will hurt when you're actually doing it, but produce hardly any DOMS, because
all the work is concentric. Same is true for work on the elliptical trainer, for example. Smooth,
continuous and no eccentric work by design. Swimming is probably somewhere in between.

In most other activities, the eccentric work exists, but not to the same extent, because you don't
get the sudden accelerations that are associated with impact.

Quoted message said:

concentric propulsive phase and an eccentric recovering phase. High impact, absolutely.

It's the impact that produces a lot of the eccentric work.

Quoted message said:

However, Running at AnThr pace and VO2Max pace...well, both are still a hard pace, and will put
stress on your body. I'm sure runners have their own solutions to avoid this.

These solutions usually involve greatly limiting the amount of high intensity work used. For
example, an elite runner who can run a 4 minute mile will usually do most of their runs at 6
minutes per mile.

Quoted message said:

However, this doesn't negate the benefits of training at 90%+ VO2Max vs AnThr as a training
modality.

I agree. What it means is that high intensity training is used sparingly by runners.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The muscle damage and stress on connective tissue, bones and cartilage is much greater in
running than in

most

Quoted message said:

other endurance activity. I wouldn't want to do a 1 hour tempo run every

day,

Quoted message said:

but one can do that with other cardio quite easily.

Actually, and i can only talk for swimming here, its harder to get to higher heart rates in
swimming. generally for any given expenditure, HR's in swimming are 10-12 beats below what they
are in running, due to a) the prone position of the body assisting venous return, and b) the
hydrostatic pressure of the water assisting venous return. Therefore, to get closer to VO2Max,
they have to work harder than a runner would, (haven't seen comparative literature with rowing and
cycling). Add to this the fact that the pool environment is often akin to exercising in warm
weather, with the hypoxic component of swimming, and its arguable that its far more stressful for
swimmers to train at VO2Max than other sports.

Let me try to explain myself better this time.

When I said "one can do that with other cardio quite easily" -- well that was a terrible way to put
it. I meant that one could do this and not get injured or overtrained. If I was doing a lot of
training on the elliptical, I would probably work at higher intensities than I use for running. I
think you're correct that it would be harder (in the sense of more painful) to work at a given VO2
during a swim than it would be during a run.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗