Increase strength/ Keeping lightweight
- Thread starter dm69
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ZimboNC said:
15 lbs would be extreme, but for a young (or even not-so-young) man not already lifting it's pretty easy to put on 2-4 kg of lean mass by lifting weights for a few months. I'm not talking about a full-blown body-building split days routine, either...rather, more the traditional 3 d/wk, 3 sets of 8-10 reps type of training.
If you want the neuromuscular gains to benefit your biking performance, then the workouts themselves need to be done *on the bike* so that the joint angles and velocities match. This has been said several times now by Ric, Whoawhoa, and myself. It's not a redirection of your question, but rather an effort to give you some advice that would actually be helpful to your cycling.dm69 said:
In a weightlifting analogy, yes, since "low weight" still involves quite a bit of force (once body weight is included for a leg exercise). However, since the pedal forces involved in biking are typically so low (relative to the strength of average, healthy people), you'll need to be close to the *max* pedal forces available in order to even register with your body that an adaptation is needed. Some *on the bike* workouts to improve neuromuscular power would involve "jumps" (max accelerations of 8-10 seconds from a slow speed in a big gear), uphill sprints in a big gear, standing starts from a stop sign, etc. Short bursts at maximal pedal force is what you're looking for.dm69 said:
Check out: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf
and note the description (table 1) and sample workouts (table 4) for Level 7 - "Neuromuscular Power"
Building a good endurance base before moving on to Strength endurance, sprints, interval and Time Trialling drills is necessary I thought you would know this? Dont worry I will be doing ruthlessly hard intensity sessions after I finish my base phaseacoggan said:
. I believe I have said this quite a few times.AGAIN!!! I realise that on the bike drills will help the most but I am simply trying to add strength and not put on muscle which WILL detrimentally affect my cycling. I consider myself an all-rounder but due to my weight (56kg's) the last thing i want to do is hurt my climbing ability, or anything for that matter
.For the most part I agree with everything you guys have said but that doesn't mean I cant do a little experiment for myself to see if increased strength really IS a waste of time
.If infact i do put on muscle mass easily like acoggan suggested I WILL stop or atleast alter the reps and weight of my sessions.
WHOAWHOA suggested a good way to build strength and not put on muscle is too use heavy weights with low weights, how so? I always thought low weight high reps was the best way to go as far as not getting unwanted hypertrophy? can someone PRETTY PLEASE explain this...plz?
I think he probably just wanted to make sure you had the traditional rationale for that type of training, e.g. "building a base" and not that you were training for ultra-endurance, you just wanted to, something like that. Anyway, there are a ton of threads on the forum to browse on this topic, but the idea that you have to build some sort of pyramid from the bottom up by doing ultra-low intensity training is scientifically innacurate. You'd be better off reducing hours some and keeping it all high l2/low l3 or better.dm69 said:Building a good endurance base before moving on to Strength endurance, sprints, interval and Time Trialling drills is necessary I thought you would know this? Dont worry I will be doing ruthlessly hard intensity sessions after I finish my base phase
dm69, my background or expertise is in strength related activites. As a former bodybuilder that was nationally qualified in the NPC, trained among other nationally ranked bodybuilders and a current IFBB Pro, I also had the privaledge to train at Coffee's Gym in the 80's and 90's. A gym that had world class powerlifters and the US women's weightlifting team coached by John Coffee.
That being said these world class strength athletes came in various physical shapes and sizes. Some of the strongest pound for pound lifters were the skinniest/smallest in the gym. I was able to see first hand proof the difference in training styles by the high volume faster paced style that we bodybuilders used compared to a very slow paced low volume near max. weight style that strength athletes use.
Curtis Leslie's (one of the first to squat in the 1,000 lb range) gang had 10 or more guys on their squat day. Each lifter probably had a turn to do his low rep set probably at about a 20 minute interval. 20 minutes of rest between sets may not seem like an efficient way to train, but body will adapt to the load that is being placed on it. These near max. weight sets with plenty of rest between will not stimulate muscular growth like the fast paced volume work that we bodybuilders would use. One of my friends became a good local powerlifter and he was about as skinny as many competitive cyclist. Between his genetics, poor nutritional intake and lifting techniques he did not seem to add size, but I watched as his squat weight increased. I've seen a similar pattern among many powerlifters through the years. Also using techniques like rest pause will add strength, but typically not add size.
As far as transferring this strength to the bike I am not sure, but some of the sprinters on this site seem to use strength exercises in their training.
By the way as a sideline note "strength does not equate to muscular size."
I have a friend that is a pro. wrestler and his muscular size and shape is his money maker. Recently someone approached him in the gym and asked the much annoying question of, "How much do you bench?" In his usual wit he responded how much does it look like I can bench?" The young man said, "500 lbs." My friend responded, "than as far as you know I can bench 500." Meaning all that was important to his career was to have the perception that because of his muscular size he was strong. I have trained with him several times and I am amazed on how light he actually trains compared to his size.
Training for muscular size and training for strength in their purest sense are typically two different types of training.
That being said these world class strength athletes came in various physical shapes and sizes. Some of the strongest pound for pound lifters were the skinniest/smallest in the gym. I was able to see first hand proof the difference in training styles by the high volume faster paced style that we bodybuilders used compared to a very slow paced low volume near max. weight style that strength athletes use.
Curtis Leslie's (one of the first to squat in the 1,000 lb range) gang had 10 or more guys on their squat day. Each lifter probably had a turn to do his low rep set probably at about a 20 minute interval. 20 minutes of rest between sets may not seem like an efficient way to train, but body will adapt to the load that is being placed on it. These near max. weight sets with plenty of rest between will not stimulate muscular growth like the fast paced volume work that we bodybuilders would use. One of my friends became a good local powerlifter and he was about as skinny as many competitive cyclist. Between his genetics, poor nutritional intake and lifting techniques he did not seem to add size, but I watched as his squat weight increased. I've seen a similar pattern among many powerlifters through the years. Also using techniques like rest pause will add strength, but typically not add size.
As far as transferring this strength to the bike I am not sure, but some of the sprinters on this site seem to use strength exercises in their training.
By the way as a sideline note "strength does not equate to muscular size."
I have a friend that is a pro. wrestler and his muscular size and shape is his money maker. Recently someone approached him in the gym and asked the much annoying question of, "How much do you bench?" In his usual wit he responded how much does it look like I can bench?" The young man said, "500 lbs." My friend responded, "than as far as you know I can bench 500." Meaning all that was important to his career was to have the perception that because of his muscular size he was strong. I have trained with him several times and I am amazed on how light he actually trains compared to his size.
Training for muscular size and training for strength in their purest sense are typically two different types of training.
Thanks for that story felt. Very encouraging to hear there is a way to build max power and keep my lightweight which was my initial question in the first place. I will have a talk to an ex bodybuilder who races around this area and see if he has any similar experiences...as an ex bodybuilder I definitely wont be on the same program as him but atleast he will know how to NOT add muscle .
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The question now is how much of that strength can be transferred to the bike?
I can set up a program to minimize hypertrophy, but I could not tell you if you would be able to transfer that strength to the bike.
The only time I have felt my gym trained leg strength on the bike has been while mt. biking having to use explosive strength to power over a rock or tree root while climbing. That seems to be the only time I have felt my legs simulate the same feeling as an explosive rep under the squat bar.
If you are going to experiment with training legs and need some advice let me know.
I can set up a program to minimize hypertrophy, but I could not tell you if you would be able to transfer that strength to the bike.
The only time I have felt my gym trained leg strength on the bike has been while mt. biking having to use explosive strength to power over a rock or tree root while climbing. That seems to be the only time I have felt my legs simulate the same feeling as an explosive rep under the squat bar.
If you are going to experiment with training legs and need some advice let me know.
I'm glad that you finally got an answer that was more to your liking. I guess I don't understand why, if you realize that 'on the bike' drills will help the most, you were wanting us to provide a less effective method of increasing neuromuscular power (as it pertains to cycling)? Was there a reason why you'd prefer not to use the most effective means?dm69 said:
If you have read this thread you will see me answer this question a few times.frenchyge said:I'm glad that you finally got an answer that was more to your liking. I guess I don't understand why, if you realize that 'on the bike' drills will help the most, you were wanting us to provide a less effective method of increasing neuromuscular power (as it pertains to cycling)? Was there a reason why you'd prefer not to use the most effective means?
I used to go to the gym 3 days a week and do bicep curls and situps and all that good stuff. Going 3 days a week and always working the same muscles really toned me up and added a lot of endurance type muscle, but no max effort muscle. I looked a lot bigger after a couple months, but I gained 0kg. That's right, 0kg. But I had more muscle and was able to do mad reps with 25 or 30lb dumbells. I did this because I wanted to be toned and have physical ability for stuff other than biking, like other sports, and my job as a labourer. Also, looking good for the ladies REALLY is a plus!dm69 said:Ok I have to explain my situation before you start posting. I am currently starting a base/endurance phase of my cycling. I am trying to strengthen my slow twitch muscles through longer rides yet still strengthen fast twitch fibres off the bike. I figure this stage of the season is the best time to start weight training as I dont want to be sore and tired when I start doing SE, sprints, TT's, Intervals, Racing etc on the bike. The problem is that I dont want to carry any extra weight on my frame when I start the racing season as I am targeting quite a few hilly stage races. I am quite lean already (5ft11 and 57kilograms) but i would hate to lose my advantage on the hills while I have it.
The ideal result from my strength training would be to increase strength at slightly sub maximal efforts...eg. Calf raises with 8kg dumbbell in each hand for 1 minute (approx 40-50 repetitions). If i could see improvements across the board from everything between bicep curls to step ups and still retain my lean muscle mass would be perfect.
Can you train your body to more efficiently lift a weight over approximately 30 seconds- 2 minutes without adding bulk in the process or is it just a trade-off that strength equals muscle? I think not after watching those midgets lift weights at the commonwealth games
Has anyone got experience of improving power and strength and keeping a low weight? If so what is your secret? Remember that my efforts are submaximal so my goals are improving the speed and control of my repetitions over a certain amount of time. Not neccesarily maintaining speed and control yet adding weight with improvement, although it would be nice to comfortably bicep curl 20kg's
By the way I am aware that there is a sticky on weight training but it doesn't really explore my question in much detail at all. I have already made up my mind that increased strength can only be a good thing as long as your bodyweight and muscle mass is maintained. How can superior strength be detrimental? it cant.
Also i am aware that on the bike stuff will help more than anything but it aint that time of year just yet so lets try and steer clear of a big debate like in the sticky above.
thx in advance
So yeah, I'd say go for it. I never did anything for my legs though because I was biking, but as I mentioned in one other thread a long time ago, doing leg press helped me to balance out my tightness in my hamstrings and stretch the whole muscle, and I felt really good. I was also able to run a lot farther, too because of that. Only on occasion though because my shins can't take that **** anymore. It's been a long time.Similar threads
