Increase strength/ Keeping lightweight

[dm69]

Ok I have to explain my situation before you start posting. I am currently starting a base/endurance phase of my cycling. I am trying to strengthen my slow twitch muscles through longer rides yet still strengthen fast twitch fibres off the bike. I figure this stage of the season is the best time to start weight training as I dont want to be sore and tired when I start doing SE, sprints, TT's, Intervals, Racing etc on the bike. The problem is that I dont want to carry any extra weight on my frame when I start the racing season as I am targeting quite a few hilly stage races. I am quite lean already (5ft11 and 57kilograms) but i would hate to lose my advantage on the hills while I have it.

The ideal result from my strength training would be to increase strength at slightly sub maximal efforts...eg. Calf raises with 8kg dumbbell in each hand for 1 minute (approx 40-50 repetitions). If i could see improvements across the board from everything between bicep curls to step ups and still retain my lean muscle mass would be perfect.

Can you train your body to more efficiently lift a weight over approximately 30 seconds- 2 minutes without adding bulk in the process or is it just a trade-off that strength equals muscle? I think not after watching those midgets lift weights at the commonwealth games the under 50kg women would annialate 99.99% of the population i reckon .

Has anyone got experience of improving power and strength and keeping a low weight? If so what is your secret? Remember that my efforts are submaximal so my goals are improving the speed and control of my repetitions over a certain amount of time. Not neccesarily maintaining speed and control yet adding weight with improvement, although it would be nice to comfortably bicep curl 20kg's .

By the way I am aware that there is a sticky on weight training but it doesn't really explore my question in much detail at all. I have already made up my mind that increased strength can only be a good thing as long as your bodyweight and muscle mass is maintained. How can superior strength be detrimental? it cant.

Also i am aware that on the bike stuff will help more than anything but it aint that time of year just yet so lets try and steer clear of a big debate like in the sticky above.

thx in advance

 

[whoawhoa]

Ok I have to explain my situation before you start posting. I am currently starting a base/endurance phase of my cycling. I am trying to strengthen my slow twitch muscles through longer rides yet still strengthen fast twitch fibres off the bike. I figure this stage of the season is the best time to start weight training as I dont want to be sore and tired when I start doing SE, sprints, TT's, Intervals, Racing etc on the bike. The problem is that I dont want to carry any extra weight on my frame when I start the racing season as I am targeting quite a few hilly stage races. I am quite lean already (5ft11 and 57kilograms) but i would hate to lose my advantage on the hills while I have it.

The ideal result from my strength training would be to increase strength at slightly sub maximal efforts...eg. Calf raises with 8kg dumbbell in each hand for 1 minute (approx 40-50 repetitions). If i could see improvements across the board from everything between bicep curls to step ups and still retain my lean muscle mass would be perfect.

Can you train your body to more efficiently lift a weight over approximately 30 seconds- 2 minutes without adding bulk in the process or is it just a trade-off that strength equals muscle? I think not after watching those midgets lift weights at the commonwealth games the under 50kg women would annialate 99.99% of the population i reckon .

Has anyone got experience of improving power and strength and keeping a low weight? If so what is your secret? Remember that my efforts are submaximal so my goals are improving the speed and control of my repetitions over a certain amount of time. Not neccesarily maintaining speed and control yet adding weight with improvement, although it would be nice to comfortably bicep curl 20kg's .

By the way I am aware that there is a sticky on weight training but it doesn't really explore my question in much detail at all. I have already made up my mind that increased strength can only be a good thing as long as your bodyweight and muscle mass is maintained. How can superior strength be detrimental? it cant.

Also i am aware that on the bike stuff will help more than anything but it aint that time of year just yet so lets try and steer clear of a big debate like in the sticky above.

thx in advance

I don't have a straight answer to your question, because I don't think there is any way to do what you describe. The only way to gain strength w/out bulk is neurmuscularly (is that a word?) which would be much more specifically trained on the bike. I'm not sure why you think that a weight/strength program would have less affect on your "base" riding than intervals on the road bike, either. I would guess it would have more impact, in fact. I just don't buy the theory that it is bad to ride hard this time of year. Also remember not to confuse strength and power. Anyway, not the answer you're looking for, hope you find it.

 

[dm69]

I don't have a straight answer to your question, because I don't think there is any way to do what you describe. The only way to gain strength w/out bulk is neurmuscularly (is that a word?) which would be much more specifically trained on the bike. I'm not sure why you think that a weight/strength program would have less affect on your "base" riding than intervals on the road bike, either. I would guess it would have more impact, in fact. I just don't buy the theory that it is bad to ride hard this time of year. Also remember not to confuse strength and power. Anyway, not the answer you're looking for, hope you find it.

No one can simply keep improving through the year by doing intensity all the time...you lose form and you start to plateau...Target a month or two of racing and make sure your whole year builds up to it dont just stay mediocre by doing the same training all year long. THIS IS OFF THE TOPIC HOWEVER

 

[whoawhoa]

No one can simply keep improving through the year by doing intensity all the time...you lose form and you start to plateau...Target a month or two of racing and make sure your whole year builds up to it dont just stay mediocre by doing the same training all year long. THIS IS OFF THE TOPIC HOWEVER

Well, I have improved for the past ~year on a plan that included intervals pretty much every week, usually 2-4 times. Other posters on this forum could share my experiences, I think. However, these tend to be l4/l5 intervals. I know I don't do l6 year round, so I see your point there.

Anyway, back on topic. If you want to train l6, you're going to have to train that energy system. So I see any l6 training as just as likely to cause plateau as on-the-bike l6 training. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so to speak.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

By the way I am aware that there is a sticky on weight training but it doesn't really explore my question in much detail at all. I have already made up my mind that increased strength can only be a good thing as long as your bodyweight and muscle mass is maintained. How can superior strength be detrimental? it cant.

It's not obvious what sort of cycling you do, so i'll speculate that you do something like road cycling and are endurance based.

If superior strength was needed to be good, then weightlifters would be better at cycling than cycling.

Strength is increased three ways
1) increased muscle cross sectional area -- this results in more mass (to e.g., lug up hill = bad) and a decrease in muscle mitochondria and capillary density (= bad)

2) neuromuscular. no increase in muscle X sectional area. Adaptations are specific to the joint angle and velocity trained (i.e., unlikely to be cycling specific)

3) a combo of 1 and 2

Thus, superior strength isn't anything to shout home about.

Plus, as you get aerobically fitter aerobic machinery replaces contractile proteins and you become weaker.

If you want to get better at riding your bike, then ride your bike.

Ric

 

[frenchyge]

Has anyone got experience of improving power and strength and keeping a low weight? If so what is your secret?

Yes, with respect to power anyway (I doubt that my strength has improved). As a result of my cycling training program, my power has increased quite nicely over the past few months, and there was no associated weight gain. Really no secrets there, but if you wanted some details on the program I've been using, then let me know.

Also i am aware that on the bike stuff will help more than anything but it aint that time of year just yet so lets try and steer clear of a big debate like in the sticky above.

Well, as you said, the 'on the bike stuff' will help more than anything, and I agree. If you're not in the mood to ride your bike this time of year then you can also train things like VO2max and LT to some degree through aerobic cross-training, such as running, roller-blading, cross-country skiing, speed skating, etc. That will help maintain those fitness aspects until the cycling time of year rolls around.

 

[Way2Slow]

Yes, with respect to power anyway (I doubt that my strength has improved). As a result of my cycling training program, my power has increased quite nicely over the past few months, and there was no associated weight gain. Really no secrets there, but if you wanted some details on the program I've been using, then let me know.

I'd be interested in the details of the program you've been using....but also where you were several months ago (in terms of power) and where you are now. Also, which parts of the program do you think have been most valuable (or to put it another way, if "bike" time was short one week, which workout(s) would you absolutely not miss).

 

[ZimboNC]

This type of post comes up from time to time on various cycling forums and, man, some of you guys make it sound like you're going to pack on 15 pounds of muscle from doing a few bicep curls. If it's that easy for you then, frankly, you're in the wrong sport.

It's my opinion that unless you are an elite-level professional cyclist there is almost no reason (barring an abnormal physiological condition) not to do some form of weight training as part of an all-around fitness regimen. Weightlifting, if done correctly, is great for your health. Will it make you a better sprinter? Probably not--but will it make you a worse hill climber? No freaking way, IMO.
--Steve

 

[WarrenG]

... I figure this stage of the season is the best time to start weight training as I dont want to be sore and tired when I start doing SE, sprints, TT's, Intervals, Racing etc on the bike.

The problem is that I dont want to carry any extra weight on my frame when I start the racing season as I am targeting quite a few hilly stage races. I am quite lean already (5ft11 and 57kilograms) but i would hate to lose my advantage on the hills while I have it.

The ideal result from my strength training would be to increase strength at slightly sub maximal efforts...eg. Calf raises with 8kg dumbbell in each hand for 1 minute (approx 40-50 repetitions). If i could see improvements across the board from everything between bicep curls to step ups and still retain my lean muscle mass would be perfect.

You mentioned SE training... For the races you're after I'd suggest you use SE/SFR training as your method of getting "stronger". You can use fairly high resistance and low cadences and the movements will be more appropriate for your cycling than exercises you would do off the bike.

I begin SE/SFR training in December and continue it through April or so, with some additional time occasionally right up until I peak in August/September. The strength training is kind of "base" training for your other efforts like sprints, accelerations, very high power during 20-40 second periods, etc., so it makes sense to do the strength training BEFORE your more specific training efforts as you get into the racing season.

IF you do your strength training in this way you won't add much weight at all, and if you do add weight, it will provide more power than what you lose from being 1-3 pounds heavier.

A strong core is really important for climbing and sprinting. Pilates is good for this. The "mat" version DVD with Ana Caban is what I recommend.

 

[dm69]

Well, as you said, the 'on the bike stuff' will help more than anything, and I agree. If you're not in the mood to ride your bike this time of year then you can also train things like VO2max and LT to some degree through aerobic cross-training, such as running, roller-blading, cross-country skiing, speed skating, etc. That will help maintain those fitness aspects until the cycling time of year rolls around.

I think you are missing the point, I am riding 600km's a week all at low intensity (60-70% mhr) and about 28-32 km/h. I am just trying to add strength in my base endurance phase but keep it neuromuscular as ric stern has pointed out, THX ric thats the word I was looking for .

As zimbo pointed out strength can't be detrimental to performance yet the added weight that might be developed can be detrimental. So does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can do neuromuscular workouts. Is it as simple as low weights and lots of reps?

 

[dm69]

You mentioned SE training... For the races you're after I'd suggest you use SE/SFR training as your method of getting "stronger". You can use fairly high resistance and low cadences and the movements will be more appropriate for your cycling than exercises you would do off the bike.

I begin SE/SFR training in December and continue it through April or so, with some additional time occasionally right up until I peak in August/September. The strength training is kind of "base" training for your other efforts like sprints, accelerations, very high power during 20-40 second periods, etc., so it makes sense to do the strength training BEFORE your more specific training efforts as you get into the racing season.

IF you do your strength training in this way you won't add much weight at all, and if you do add weight, it will provide more power than what you lose from being 1-3 pounds heavier.

A strong core is really important for climbing and sprinting. Pilates is good for this. The "mat" version DVD with Ana Caban is what I recommend.

Funny you recommend pilates. I just recently bought a pilates dvd/ book and am incorporating that into my strength training.

Your recommendation of SE workouts is very correct...Once I finish the next 5 weeks of BASE training I will move onto plenty of SE work for a month and a bit of TT's and sprints aswell, slowly I will move onto my next phase which is mostly Intervals, TT's with a bit less SE. I should be flying by july, august and september targeting plenty of races around my region (NSW, Australia).

 

[whoawhoa]

I think you are missing the point, I am riding 600km's a week all at low intensity (60-70% mhr) and about 28-32 km/h. I am just trying to add strength in my base endurance phase but keep it neuromuscular as ric stern has pointed out, THX ric thats the word I was looking for .

As zimbo pointed out strength can't be detrimental to performance yet the added weight that might be developed can be detrimental. So does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can do neuromuscular workouts. Is it as simple as low weights and lots of reps?

Read Ric's post again. Neuromuscular gains are speed and joint-angle specific. Weight lifting won't transfer (unless of course you lift weights at the same cadence you cycle at. In which case, we are back to "why not do it on the bike?").

No, neuromuscular strength may not be detrimental. So go out and do sprint workouts on the bike.

BTW, your original question was about efforts of 30seconds-2 minutes, which is more AWC. And even less likely to be trained by weights.

 

[WarrenG]

Your recommendation of SE workouts is very correct...Once I finish the next 5 weeks of BASE training I will move onto plenty of SE work for a month and a bit of TT's and sprints aswell, slowly I will move onto my next phase which is mostly Intervals, TT's with a bit less SE. I should be flying by july, august and september targeting plenty of races around my region (NSW, Australia).

I don't agree with training only one aspect of fitness at a time. You can do more than that. I ride 12 months each year, and formally train for about 11 months of the year. I start SE/SFR training after just a few weeks of formal training and continue it for 3-4 months. It is to help you with sprints and TT's, among other things. It is part of the preparation for those efforts so it is better to do the SE/SFR before those things so that each doesn't interfere with the other (in terms of time and energy). This is a fairly common approach for SE training.

Now days, even most pros who will do 4-7 hour races do not do only long rides at the intensity you mention for week after week. That is the old school approach. Nowdays, during winter "base period" they also include SE, and some intervals that are mostly below threshold. Most of their SE is done on hills. You can improve your strength doing SE/SFR on hills, and also with some tempo intervals on hills.

Keep in mind that significant SE or other muscular strength training needs 2-7 days for recovery and supercompensation so you won't be doing it more than one or two times a week. You'll need much longer than a month of this training to reap the rewards.

 

[dm69]

have a read if you want http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527#T2

 

[ric_stern/RST]

have a read if you want http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527#T2

We're talking about cycling, right? and not running?
ric

 

[dm69]

We're talking about cycling, right? and not running?
ric

Last time I checked yeah. What exactly would be the difference? surely you could convert something similar on the bike or are runners aliens with entirely different body make ups to us now are they .

 

[whoawhoa]

Last time I checked yeah. What exactly would be the difference? surely you could convert something similar on the bike or are runners aliens with entirely different body make ups to us now are they .

IIRC that type of program could benefit runners essentially by turning their legs into better "springs." Not a change that would benefit a cyclist. But I'll let Ric take it away.

 

[dm69]

remember whoawhoa my question is how to gain strength and not gain hypertrophy not whether I should or shouldn't be doing strength training in the first place. I am just experimenting with this so if I find a way to not gain hypertrophy and I give up on strength training I haven't damaged myself in anyway. Plz stop redirecting this thread in a direction that is nothing like my OP.

 

[whoawhoa]

remember whoawhoa my question is how to gain strength and not gain hypertrophy not whether I should or shouldn't be doing strength training in the first place. I am just experimenting with this so if I find a way to not gain hypertrophy and I give up on strength training I haven't damaged myself in anyway. Plz stop redirecting this thread in a direction that is nothing like my OP.

Wait, let me get this straight: you want cycling-specific gains in neuromuscular strength? In your first post, you mentioned durations from 30 seconds-2 minutes. Are you changing your mind and going with more like 5-20 seconds? Because otherwise, you're on the wrong track, you need to be seeking higher anaerobic capacity.

Anyway, if you want to gain strength w/out mass, you could probably try high weights w/ very low reps-just don't expect it to transfer at all to the bike. Alternatively you could try sprints on the bike (novel idea, I know). If you really want to find something to do off the bike, you could try plyometrics, but I doubt it would be as helpful.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

IIRC that type of program could benefit runners essentially by turning their legs into better "springs." Not a change that would benefit a cyclist. But I'll let Ric take it away.

That's basically it.

Ric