How long do you wait?

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

What you're trying to do in this post is peg me as some kind of armchair expert, and that's just
way off the mark.

No I'm wasn't. And if it came out like that I'"m sorry. I tried to take care to say that you
*could* allow yourself more extrapolating than others.

Quoted message said:

Implicit in this is the assumption that I can have less humility after I do a marathon ?

No not at all. It's not about marathons as such but about the strength of one's criticism when it
is based on something you do not truly KNOW, as opposed to highly-educated extrapolation.

Quoted message said:

Why is that ? I think it's perfectly valid to criticise the motivations of others, as long as I'm
not a hypocrite about it.

Fair enough, as long as you criticise their *expressed* motivations and not imagined motivations
which have been thrust upon them.

The discussion sort of veered off track when Anders started talking about the hypothetical runner
who wants to get by on the minimum. I was addressing this, and not the originator of the thread. I
admit that I was unusually grumpy.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Dot wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do have experience in running races without adequate preparation.

Is this the same mediocrity that you're criticizing others for? 😉

The performances were indeed mediocre, and I wasn't happy with them. However, I don't criticise
anyone for having mediocre results. I do criticise them for making a goal of mediocrity.

ok, I understand your point now.

Except who is to say what is a mediocre goal? I know you give a definition below, Steve calls it
"optimization", and I say who I am to judge another runners' goals or motivations. Heck, I just run
for fun, but I should note that I play hard when I play.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, of course there are races that are longer than marathons. But I doubt your typical marathon
tourist knows much about them.

Similarly, does a "marathon tourist" know enough about a marathon to consider it "maximum glory"?
I'm assuming you're not including in here people who train legitimately but use marathons or other
races as a means of seeing the world. To show how clueless I used to be - and probably
representative of general public - I used to think that there were just a few marathons run and
Boston was one of them. Since they had 1000s of people run in one race, there was nothing special
about it. But the only reason I know any differently now is because of this group. Certainly not by
any comments of runners up here - either about Boston or marathons in general. I have friends who
have run marathons here or outside or both, but they're just a long race with some neat locations
(Redwoods comes to mind) to those people and a group of them may go together.

For curiosity, where does the "marathon tourist" get the concept of "maximum glory" in a marathon?
John Q. Public doesn't know about it - at least no place I've lived. Maybe it's been a recent rise
since I've been up here (since 1980) where road racing isn't big and people elsewhere are more
cognizant of them. (Up here, "glory" comes from Iditarod 1100 mi sled dog race or Mt. Marathon
running race - 3 mi/3000ft up/down). Does it come from other runners? In which case, is it a
self-feeding thing? Or are there that few runners that know about races beyond city marathons? I
dunno. I'm asking since I don't know. And it's probably intended to be a rhetorical question.

I had a chuckle this evening as I was putting my shoes on in the hallway outside the lockers at
the swimming pool. A mother was impatiently waiting for her daughter. When the daughter finally
emerged from the lockers, her mother read her the riot act about "dawdling" on days when they had
to get someplace else. The daughter replied something to the effect that she wasn't "dawdling" -
or at least not that she knew of. Clearly a difference of opinion of "dawdling". Somehow this
reminded me of the "mediocrity". Maybe some are "guilty" of "mediocre" goals because they don't
recognize them as such.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

steve common said:

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

Quoted message said:

I have much more respect for the person who works hard than the person who is lazy.

I think we all do. But I don't understand how that relates to your "all goals are equal"
statement.

This is the only place I don't agree. The hard work = go(o)dliness, is part of the protestant (or
is that judeo-christian?) work ethic. I don't respect someone more, simply because he works
"harder" than his neighbour. Neither do I believe that someone who I may *perceive* (with my value
set) as being "lazy", should merit disdain.

I know what you're saying. With respect to running, I generally don't choose to judge per se.
However, I have seen some runners with excellent form, work hard, or are active in running community
that I admire as running role models. (ok, I confess to being a hero worshipper) I don't disdain the
others. [This specifically excludes work since there we are asked to evaluate work of peers and are
in turn evaluated. I try to keep recreation (running) as different from work as possible and hence
not judge others since I just wanna do *my* thing.]

Quoted message said:

This may be because I love to laze :->

I'll have to confess to liking to lay in the sun as much as anyone else, but I gotta climb a
mountain to get to it, not on the beach 😉

I also have my computer trained to do a lot of my work that others do by hand 🙂 It was one way I
could get a competitive edge over competition for grant funds. Oh, oh. I guess I'm "mediocre" 😉

Quoted message said:

But this is rather off topic - or is it yet another example of how culural/religious differences
can lead one (you, me, them, everybody, everybody...<sings "Everybody Needs Somebody"(1)>😉 into
mistakes when looking at others?

NB flashing, exclamation marks and wailing sirens, this is NOT any kind of criticism of you, but I
think you guessed already ;-)

yep! well said.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

steve common said:

So was I. Memo to self: don't write anything on usenet after 72 hours without sleep...

too late steve. if you've gone 72 hrs without sleep, you may have very well caused some permanent
damage to some of the brain cells.

grumpy forever??

jobs

In article said:

Quoted message said:

too late steve. if you've gone 72 hrs without sleep, you may have very well caused some permanent
damage to some of the brain cells.

I've only about 120 left after alcohol abuse, and 40 of those are shrivled, so it should be easy
to check.

Quoted message said:

grumpy forever??

Looks like, as this isn't the first time :->

See guys, this is what happens when you attempt to do OOP in assembly.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

steve common wrote:

Quoted message said:

The reason I ask is that looking back at World Mtn Running Trophy results
wmrt2003.orgresults.htmOpen ↗ Italian Sr. men just cream everybody else. Watching it first
hand, it

Someone clearly forgot to tell these guys about the inherent superiority of the Kenyans. Two
Italians finished in the top 10, one in the top 5 in the NY marathon.

Quoted message said:

was extremely obvious to even a beginner like me why the Italians have won the team event for 19
years. Quite simply, they made 2000ft (600 m) hills look like mole hills and were still
"sprinting" on 2nd lap up the 1000 ft (300m) hill again. I did get the impression that they train
in the Alps, perhaps as a team (I wasn't sure what the "we" referred to in a tv interview). US
team is selected from winners of selection races, and I'm not sure if there is any "team"
training or not.

That's an interesting thought. One of Noakes' key points about the lessons learned from the Kenyans
is that they are prone to training in groups, with their training camps, and this approach seems to
have a lot going for it.

BTW, there was an article on an American pro runner in the magazine they send out to NYRR members.
Apparently, she does a lot of group work with runners from a number of different places (Italians
and Kenyans IIRC). It's like a sort of little running/training club they have or something like
that. According to the article, her training was a balance between group work and solo runs. The
group training sessions were usually fairly demanding while the solo runs were just comfortable
paced LSD runs.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

Quoted message said:

ok, I understand your point now.

Except who is to say what is a mediocre goal? I know you give a definition below, Steve calls it
"optimization", and I say who I am to judge another runners' goals or motivations. Heck, I just
run for fun, but I should note that I play hard when I play.

Well, exactly. You're not asking "how can I do the minimum", are you ? Most of the people here just
enjoy running.

Quoted message said:

Similarly, does a "marathon tourist" know enough about a marathon to consider it "maximum glory"?

That's a fair question. It's possible that some are really that badly informed, and aren't aware
of all the 10k and 5k races that are available. I was fortunate enough to have some guy at the
track where I trained point me in the direction of a local 5k race, which is what got me started,
but I was completely ignorant about the existence of what is really a very lively running
community in my area.

It also happens that there are some who enter the marathon simply not going better but stick with
running after that, and go on to have long and succesful running careers. Bob Glover is such a
person, for example.

There's also widespread confusion in the general public about what a marathon actually is. For
example, after a 10k, I went to a local shop to buy a coffee, and the owner was explaining to some
lady that the no parking signs didn't apply any more, because they had just been put there
temporarily "for the marathon".

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming you're not including in here people who train legitimately but use marathons or other
races as a means of seeing the world.

"Tourist" is meant as a metaphor. In the sense of the person who does no running, trains a very
short time for a marathon and never runs again.

Quoted message said:

For curiosity, where does the "marathon tourist" get the concept of "maximum glory" in a marathon?

I think it's due to the amount of media coverage that marathons get in comparison with other events.
For example, the 8k mens championships didn't get nearly the same attention as the NY marathon will,
even though a strong field of invitational men showed up.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

No, I'm not saying that your writing is half-assed. I'm saying that the notion of minimal
preparation as a *goal* is half-assed, mediocre, etc. I'm saying this because I'm a snob.

True snobs are, in my experience, remarkably tolerant of people who don´t match their high
standards:-)

But, seriously, I now see that I was too quick to read that you found my *argument* "half-assed". (I
can take criticism of my *style* in stride, but...)

Quoted message said:

Yeah, well you sort of got me started ranting. I don't directly followup to posters calling
them losers.

I hope you don´t think I accused you of doing so!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

IMHO if you´re going to post a reply, you should respect
1) as far as possible,

Quoted message said:

I don't think so. Maybe their premise is simply wrong-headed. A lot of beginners tend to post
questions that are based on premises that are really flawed. At the very least, if the premise is
completely bone-headed ("I've done no training, and I need to run a marathon in a week"😉 then it's
worth suggesting that the poster re-evaluate their premise, especially if they do not completely
understand what the said premise entails.

In such a case, the "as far as possible" cannot be stretched long enough to warrant any other
kind of reply!

(Whereas, in the two threads in question it took a very subjective, and in my view highly
distorted, interpretation of the premise to justify the kind of reply that got me, sitting on my
high horse, going.)

Quoted message said:

Hey, it was you who got me started. Newbies are forgiven for not knowing better, you should
understand that I rant a lot, and enjoy arguing.

No hard feelings either way.

Anders

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article said:

steve common wrote:

Quoted message said:

The reason I ask is that looking back at World Mtn Running Trophy results
wmrt2003.orgresults.htmOpen ↗ Italian Sr. men just cream everybody else. Watching it first
hand, it

Someone clearly forgot to tell these guys about the inherent superiority of the Kenyans. Two
Italians finished in the top 10, one in the top 5 in the NY marathon.

I don't think any of the African nations were present - but no prize money involved - just bragging
rights and maybe medals 😉 I've heard that Kenyans train on "hills", but I don't know what that
really means - rolling 100-ft hills or mountains?

My favorite training picture (left side of his home page) is of Roberto Ghidoni, the Italian runner
that blew the doors off the Iditarod Trail Invitational this year. robertoghidoni.itrobertoghidoni.itOpen ↗
This year he was plowing through the mush when the snow machines couldn't make trail. But the
mountain in the background on his homepage is ahhh, a little steep for WMRT standards. But some
pictures I've seen of skyrunners in Italy (I think) look like could've been on something like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was extremely obvious to even a beginner like me why the Italians have won the team event for 19
years. Quite simply, they made 2000ft (600 m) hills look like mole hills and were still
"sprinting" on 2nd lap up the 1000 ft (300m) hill again. I did get the impression that they train
in the Alps, perhaps as a team (I wasn't sure what the "we" referred to in a tv interview). US
team is selected from winners of selection races, and I'm not sure if there is any "team"
training or not.

That's an interesting thought. One of Noakes' key points about the lessons learned from the
Kenyans is that they are prone to training in groups, with their training camps, and this approach
seems to have a lot going for it.

BTW, there was an article on an American pro runner in the magazine they send out to NYRR members.
Apparently, she does a lot of group work with runners from a number of different places (Italians
and Kenyans IIRC). It's like a sort of little running/training club they have or something like
that. According to the article, her training was a balance between group work and solo runs. The
group training sessions were usually fairly demanding while the solo runs were just comfortable
paced LSD runs.

That makes sense. I think Mike T. has made a sorta similar comment about using spinning classes for
bike training since instructor keeps the pressure on. In my cross-training class, our "warmup" is
done in a line following the instructor - which means if you slow down, you get run over 😉 -
running, forward/backward, high steps, butt flicks, cross-overs (carioca?), plyometrics on running
trampoline. Depending on the session, I usually get 10-25 min above VT, sometimes reaching 90%
effort or more. (whole session is 2 hr - .5 hr warmup, .5 stretching, 1 hr circuits (machines or
plyometrics) or weights) I then do hills or LSDs on my other days.

But what was interesting last year with the xt group is that some of our running seemed to be
synchronous - there was a beat developed as we ran around the gym (socks on gym mats) - at least
when our group was fairly similar. Also on the treadmill portion of our circuits, we might have had
different speeds and slopes set, but the cadence was remarkably similar. I found that on my first
regular run of the week, some of that cadence and sometimes the highstepping carried over, although
it decayed through the week. When the hs speedsters (became state champ in something, I think)
started coming in, it really threw off the cadence. But that's about when many of us stopped coming
since we were periodizing with buildup for races.

The different concepts of training harder/smarter/sufficiently / competitively or whatever is what I
was really driving at.

One of the reasons I asked Steve the question was in an earlier thread he had earlier commented
about their ultra runners only doing max 2 hr runs (perhaps faster than American LSDs?), which is
contrary to most American training philosophies which support long runs to train the endocrine
system as well as TOL. Lyndon's also made comments about high intensity training rather than volume,
different ways of periodizing, etc. For short races like WMRT (5 mi, 2000ft women, 8 mi, 3000 ft
men, iirc), I could see where explosive-type training might be helpful *and* sufficient. But the
bottom line for most ultras here (perhaps flavoring thinking), I think, is that people like to run
trails for enjoyment, and the races are an excuse 😉 To be sure, the training sessions do go beyond
when they're just a little tired.

I was also curious about the differences in what people train on. The international standards for
this race are much flatter (there's a maximum slope allowed so that it is runnable) than typical
mountain races here and was wondering how usual mountain runs there contrast with the WMRT since
I've seen some pictures of Italian (I think) skyrunning races (has minimum altitude requirements) in
truly rugged country.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

steve common <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Quoted message said:

Except who is to say what is a mediocre goal? I know you give a definition below, Steve calls
it "optimization", and I say who I am to judge another runners' goals or motivations. Heck, I
just run for fun, but I should note that I play hard when I play.

Well, exactly. You're not asking "how can I do the minimum", are you ? Most of the people here
just enjoy running.

I _do_ understand what your point is (I think) and it's perfectly valid, particularly in the
context it's coming from, ie in the USA = very strong work ethic (there's nothing wrong with
that btw).

My own, variable-geometry ethics don't go down the same road as yours but neither can negate the
other, they can both exist at the same time because they don't apply to the same person.

But while I can understand very clearly what it means to say "what is the minimum I can do for a
*given result*", I can't for the life of me see what is at the other end of the scale?

I may have an example for you, Steve.

When I first began running, one of the other guys in the office also tried to start. He wanted to
do it to lose weight. So being an engineer, he read several books looking for advice. Then He
complained to me that none of the running books answered his question. They all talked about
running economy and efficiency, but he wanted to know the most INEFFICIENT way to run so that he
could burn the most calories per mile!

An admirable goal for weight loss. A puzzling goal at best for running.

IIRC, he gave up running soon after that.

And Dot, your comment about DIFFERENT GOALS is spot on target. They are neither better nor worse,
just different.

There is IMHO no objective way to measure whether a runner (or any other sports participant) is
giving their full effort without asking them. And then you have to accept their answer. The whole
issue of mediocre effort is individual, and unlikely to get a group concensus. It might not even
get an individual's view consistently over time. Performances for myself that I once thought really
good, I later thought to be closer to mediocre. And at least one race I finished thinking I did a
crappy run was really at that point a PR. So I takae it all, one day/race at a time. It's just a
variation of YMMV.

Thanks for the interesting discussion all. Ed