How did lance do it?

MPCRUSHER said:

...Is it possible to miss weeks of racing and not loose racing fitness?

Yes

FWIW, my racing results improved dramatically when I finally learned to race less and train more. Racing is great for high end work and definitely my favorite way to get L6 work but it's often not the best way to develop sustainable power. During races I tend to ride cagey and even in a break I take turns and don't get the same kind of sustained efforts I do during L4 training. Part of that is doing focused training and not just getting in miles or going hard when the mood strikes me. When I raced more I did a lot more low grade rides as "training" because I was either tired from racing or trying to stay fresh for an upcoming race.

At least for me, racing is not the best training.

YMMV,
-Dave

MPCRUSHER said:

Is it possible to miss weeks of racing and not loose racing fitness?

Absolutely. I work harder during solo training than I do during races where I'm tucked into a pack much of the time. I'm pretty sure that's the way it's supposed to work (ie, train harder, race smarter).

In my opinion, the real question is: is it possible to achieve peak racing fitness without missing any weeks of racing?

MPCRUSHER said:

I mean 3 years without a race and then on his first race at the TDU he is able to hang with and be competitive with some of the best riders in the world.

I find this astonishing. I understand the amount of training he does would make him extremely fit, his ftp would be good and so on but surely you can't simulate race speeds in training.

Where I live there is racing every weekend. If I miss two or three weeks and continue to train, I find that I really struggle to hang on when the attacks come. It takes me about the same time to get back to where I was before.

Is it possible to miss weeks of racing and not loose racing fitness?

I guess how well you do in a race after time off depends on whether you race on Astana or against it. 🙂 I suspect that Armstrong is a bit ahead in his training this year compared to other pros. After all, they didn't take 3 years off and aren't trying to make up for lost time (ahem, at 37). Just an opinion, but July is gonna be more interesting. I'm a bit skeptical of his comeback to top form, but the man is a freak of nature.

My experience of loosing form when not racing has come from years of training without power. I think in the past training has been full of L2 and L3 rides with racing providing the intensity.

I'm hoping that now I train with a power meter, I will be able to take a few weekends off racing here and there to spend more time with the wife without feeling guilty as hell.

I knew this thing would pay off in the end.

MPCRUSHER said:

...I'm hoping that now I train with a power meter, I will be able to take a few weekends off racing here and there to spend more time with the wife without feeling guilty as hell.....

One of the biggest benefits I found in my first season of training with a power meter and a SST/Coggan/Lydiard training philosophy was how much more efficient my training was in terms of time invested. IOW, I got better results with less time on the bike but much more quality time.

The power meter didn't really do that, the shift from "go easy and long or go really hard" training to an SST+ focus is really what changed things. The power meter just makes it much easier to see the patterns and realize how many junk miles you can accumulate when you train without a concrete plan and without objective feedback. For instance, group rides often felt hard or at least had sections that felt hard. So they had to be great training, right??? Riding with a PM on group rides showed me how much junk mileage we'd accumulate on a weekend ride. Sure there'd be some hard jams and city limit sprints and maybe a hard climb along the way. But wayyyy too much L1/L2 time as well.

There have always been folks that figured this out and trained this way long before power meters but I sure wasn't one of them.

Anyway, good luck with shifting your training and hopefully to enjoying some more time with the family while still seeing improvement. Just know that the PM is only the measurement tool and you still have to figure out what training philosophy you buy into and how to use it to achieve your racing goals.

Good luck,
-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

One of the biggest benefits I found in my first season of training with a power meter and a SST/Coggan/Lydiard training philosophy was how much more efficient my training was in terms of time invested. IOW, I got better results with less time on the bike but much more quality time.

The power meter didn't really do that, the shift from "go easy and long or go really hard" training to an SST+ focus is really what changed things. The power meter just makes it much easier to see the patterns and realize how many junk miles you can accumulate when you train without a concrete plan and without objective feedback. For instance, group rides often felt hard or at least had sections that felt hard. So they had to be great training, right??? Riding with a PM on group rides showed me how much junk mileage we'd accumulate on a weekend ride. Sure there'd be some hard jams and city limit sprints and maybe a hard climb along the way. But wayyyy too much L1/L2 time as well.

There have always been folks that figured this out and trained this way long before power meters but I sure wasn't one of them.

Anyway, good luck with shifting your training and hopefully to enjoying some more time with the family while still seeing improvement. Just know that the PM is only the measurement tool and you still have to figure out what training philosophy you buy into and how to use it to achieve your racing goals.

Good luck,
-Dave

Your absolutely right Dave, since I started riding with power, my training has become a lot more focused. It is a fantastic tool. It keeps me honest, and I can see quantitative improvement using the PMC. The PMC is an amazing tool. It astonishes me how it is able to tell me exactly how I am feeling and show me why I feel the way I do.

Thanks again for your words of wisdom Dave.

daveryanwyoming said:

Just know that the PM is only the measurement tool and you still have to figure out what training philosophy you buy into and how to use it to achieve your racing goals.

I am developing a theory (naturally a correct theory) that this PM industry, in its current state, is an utter waste for all amateur athletes. Only guys looking for the last 2% of their ability should even consider a PM. In fact only pros and guys on talent identification programs should be using powermeters at their current prices.

When accurate powermeters cost around $300-400USD then I will reconsider my position.

At present they are a total [censored]. Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week.

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

Learn the farken sport morons not how to analyse a powermeter.

The end.

Geoff Vadar said:

Learn the farken sport morons not how to analyse a powermeter.

Good point. Think about it - We are talking about Lance here... I don't think he got to where he is right now by spending hours staring at his power software data - at least during the early/mid years of his life as a pro. Powermeters aren't bad tools, obviously, as they provide a quantitative method for measuring your improvements.

I'd bet Armstrong is a cut above the rest because he truly knows his body and how it reacts to certain training methods. Also... We can't forget that he spent his time "off" running, lifting weights, and mountain biking. I doubt that he really ever "lost" fitness. Rather, he probably just transferred his specifiic fitness towards other sports for a while. Given the mental break this probably provided, I'd be willing to wager that he may be right back near his top form come July.

Geoff Vadar said:

I am developing a theory .....

Coach Nev says: why hasn't a big basstid like you tried 180mm cranks yet? Or are you a sprinter who won't admit it to us? 😄

I races on my 177.5s tonight, and they felt pretty good, especially when 'levering' off the chair

As far as fitness goes I agree with all that you will not loose fitness by not racing but for me as a newbie to racing I had found that I really needed the racing to get better at racing. When you get to the level of Dave and others on this forum that know how to race it is probably not as important.

-js

MPCRUSHER said:

I mean 3 years without a race and then on his first race at the TDU he is able to hang with and be competitive with some of the best riders in the world.

I find this astonishing. I understand the amount of training he does would make him extremely fit, his ftp would be good and so on but surely you can't simulate race speeds in training.

Where I live there is racing every weekend. If I miss two or three weeks and continue to train, I find that I really struggle to hang on when the attacks come. It takes me about the same time to get back to where I was before.

Is it possible to miss weeks of racing and not loose racing fitness?

531Aussie said:

Coach Nev says: why hasn't a big basstid like you tried 180mm cranks yet? Or are you a sprinter who won't admit it to us? 😄

I races on my 177.5s tonight, and they felt pretty good, especially when 'levering' off the chair

Nah I havent tried them yet! I have a fair bit of toe down so I'm not sure about it. If I get desperate I might look into it. [img]cyclingforums.comtongue.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Geoff Vadar said:

I am developing a theory (naturally a correct theory) that this PM industry, in its current state, is an utter waste for all amateur athletes. Only guys looking for the last 2% of their ability should even consider a PM. In fact only pros and guys on talent identification programs should be using powermeters at their current prices.

When accurate powermeters cost around $300-400USD then I will reconsider my position.

At present they are a total [censored]. Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week.

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

Learn the farken sport morons not how to analyse a powermeter.

The end.

Being so full of yourself, how do you avoid exploding? :p

rmur17 said:

Being so full of yourself, how do you avoid exploding? :p

I concur, Rick, and offer a little more. What I'm hearing is nothing but garden variety envy. Very pedestrian but common human condition of those with inadequacy issues.

It goes as thus - 'I want something but can't afford it. In order to satiate myself, I'll diss on those that can afford them by asserting they're a waste for anyone but cyclists of my ability.' Psychology 101.

I believe the correct term is TROLL.

As swampy asked in a different thread..."So how fast are you?", hence no reply. In fact no stats about anything except that I should infer that he must be Cat 1/2 since if you are not you are a farken moron who needs to learn how to cycle first.

-js

tonyzackery said:

I concur, Rick, and offer a little more. What I'm hearing is nothing but garden variety envy. Very pedestrian but common human condition of those with inadequacy issues.

It goes as thus - 'I want something but can't afford it. In order to satiate myself, I'll diss on those that can afford them by asserting they're a waste for anyone but cyclists of my ability.' Psychology 101.

Geoff Vadar said:

Nah I havent tried them yet! I have a fair bit of toe down so I'm not sure about it. If I get desperate I might look into it. [img]cyclingforums.comtongue.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Put a set on and see if it works for ya. Even if you're making what many believe is a momumental change from 175mm to 180mm you'll likely not notice the difference when pedalling.

I couldn't feel any difference unless the crank length change was 10mm and even then it's not some apocalyptic change, where your knees self destruct, you lose the ability to pedal at over 90rpm and severed pigs heads fall from the sky. At worst you might scrape the pedals a bit more than usual during your first race...

Not sure why I even waste the time in responding to this, but maybe there's a seed of desire to engage in meaningful discussion buried underneath Geoff's constant stream of drivel.

Geoff Vadar said:

I am developing a theory (naturally a correct theory) that this PM industry, in its current state, is an utter waste for all amateur athletes. Only guys looking for the last 2% of their ability should even consider a PM.

I'd argue that folks who only have 4-6 hrs/wk to dedicate towards training stand to gain a *lot* more by making dramatic changes to their training habits than those who are training 20+ hr/wk and are at 98%+ of their potential already. Think about it.

Geoff Vadar said:

In fact only pros and guys on talent identification programs should be using powermeters at their current prices.

When accurate powermeters cost around $300-400USD then I will reconsider my position.

So, the theoretical value of the device is relative to your cycling budget? Maybe if you were better at your day job you'd have more money to put into your hobbies.

What other items in the $300-400USD range are you thinking of that would provide comparable benefit to a powermeter? Is that the cost of 1hr/wk from a capable coach for the 3+yrs useful life of a powermeter? From a benefit/cost standpoint, I really can't think of another *equipment* purchase that comes close at the current ~$1000USD price.

Geoff Vadar said:

At present they are a total [censored]. Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week.

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

Maybe it's just the Western mindset, but powermeters are particularly helpful for those folks who like to learn/question/understand things for themselves rather than just doing what they're told. Call me crazy, but I personally like to make my own decisions and take responsibility for my own improvements rather than just paying somebody to tell me what to do.

As far as learning the sport, I agree that it's necessary and that a powermeter is not the best teacher for that. Most of the teams in this area have a core of more experienced racers (former domestic pros, or at least Cat 1/2 racers who have settled down to Masters racing) who are more than willing to teach newcomers the ropes for free.

Personally, I'd turn your hypothesis around and say that there's plenty of free racing advice around to get a newcomer into the sport and give them enough tools to sample and decide if they really enjoy it. Also, the less experienced riders typically accept advice or constructive criticism more readily and put the wisdom to good use. OTOH, the folks that are looking for that last 2% of their ability are the ones that really need an objective 3rd party (coach) to keep their heads screwed on straight and tell them what's holding them back despite all the ego and results that might be blinding them to further improvement potential.

rmur17 said:

Being so full of yourself, how do you avoid exploding? :p

He constantly wears a tight rubberized skinsuit.

But he doesn't need to explode. He goes around corners so freakin' fast that the g-forces just rips the flesh off his body. Vittoria developed a new tire tread compound based on F1 car technology as regular rubber just melted under the load. The only thing that would allow others to keep up was the fact that his tub glue would become superheated, melt and run into his wheel bearings. At the end of the ride the hubs would be that glued up it'd take mere mortals like Chris Hoy or Theo Bos just to be able to ride the bike from the finish area back to his own personal 18wheeler bogan bus. He develops that much power than he changes down to the 10 tooth sprocket for up hill sprints - that special CNC machined from billet stainless steel sprocket that comes standard with the Campag th'uper duper Record 12 speed group.

frenchyge said:

What other items in the $300-400USD range are you thinking of that would provide comparable benefit to a powermeter? Is that the cost of 1hr/wk from a capable coach for the 3+yrs useful life of a powermeter? From a benefit/cost standpoint, I really can't think of another *equipment* purchase that comes close at the current ~$1000USD price.

From what I've seen out here in California, a coach that still hasn't figured out how to glue on tubular tires costs $200 a month. One that can show you how to hookup your powermeters cpu to your computer starts around $300 per month...

In NYC I can find you a guy who goes for $200 per hour to ride with...and he will give you a schedule to follow at additional $300 per month. He will also let you go on his Tuesday night group rides...

It adds up for sure...

swampy1970 said:

From what I've seen out here in California, a coach that still hasn't figured out how to glue on tubular tires costs $200 a month. One that can show you how to hookup your powermeters cpu to your computer starts around $300 per month...