How did lance do it?

bubsy said:

Yep this is quite common a guy in my local club absolutly smashes the A grade field in most of the local criteriums and we have a very strong local scene but when he rides in state open road races he's usually C or D grade depending on the field that enters.

What does C and D grade equate too? Doesn't sound that impressive, but being that I'm not an ignorant [censored], I'm not going to assume that they're struggling to hold 25mph after 70 miles.... It could be that he doesn't do a bunch of road races...

With the way he's been shooting the [censored], I'd expect at least a 19 minute ride in a 16km (10 mile) time trial on a pretty normal bike with a set of half way descent wheels.

swampy1970 said:

What does C and D grade equate too? Doesn't sound that impressive, but being that I'm not an ignorant [censored], I'm not going to assume that they're struggling to hold 25mph after 70 miles.... It could be that he doesn't do a bunch of road races...

With the way he's been shooting the [censored], I'd expect at least a 19 minute ride in a 16km (10 mile) time trial on a pretty normal bike with a set of half way descent wheels.

Only pommies ride RTTC TT's up the A26 with their pale legs in their alpaca jackets with icecream buckets on their heads.. LOL. TT is not in out kulchur.

You are correct. Generally C & D at club level is rubbish, but it depends on the club. D in my old club is normally beginners, kids under 10 years of age, women in their 7th month of pregnancy, terminal cancer patients and 80 yo men. :p At a strong club like Bendigo or Carnegie most if not all of the A graders will be equivalent to Cat 1 or II standard. In A grade at my old club, there is one rider who is easily Cat 1 standard (had a couple of national level wins, smashes the locals), a couple at Cat2 /B grade standard on a state level, the rest probably C graders. They'd probably get all indignant at that assessment but it's pretty accurate IMO, its not a strong club rider wise.

State level is different. At state level (and possibly even regional or what we call 'combine' level if there are a few competitive clubs in your region) A B C & D would roughly be equivalent to Cat 1-4. I say roughly because we don't have points systems out here, it's done subjectively, not objectively on points like in the US or UK.

classic1 said:

Only pommies ride RTTC TT's up the A26 with their pale legs in their alpaca jackets with icecream buckets on their heads.. LOL. TT is not in out kulchur.

You are correct. Generally C & D at club level is rubbish, but it depends on the club. D in my old club is normally beginners, kids under 10 years of age, women in their 7th month of pregnancy, terminal cancer patients and 80 yo men. :p At a strong club like Bendigo or Carnegie most if not all of the A graders will be equivalent to Cat 1 or II standard. In A grade at my old club, there is one rider who is easily Cat 1 standard (had a couple of national level wins, smashes the locals), a couple at Cat2 /B grade standard on a state level, the rest probably C graders. They'd probably get all indignant at that assessment but it's pretty accurate IMO, its not a strong club rider wise.

State level is different. At state level (and possibly even regional or what we call 'combine' level if there are a few competitive clubs in your region) A B C & D would roughly be equivalent to Cat 1-4. I say roughly because we don't have points systems out here, it's done subjectively, not objectively on points like in the US or UK.

The distinction between state and local sounds a bit odd. I guess if it works then... well, it works. I haven't got around to racing in the US as I got fat from the surprisingly good beers (no... not Budshitezer) and started racing cars instead. I'm just used to earning points and being bumped (or dropped) to whatever category you're going to be in.

After watching local races I think I may actually fear for my life riding in the local bunches. I reckon if I can hold 320watts for an hour combined with some handy bike handling skills I should ensure that I still have a pair of round wheels and a working frame at the end of the race... Stay in the front 5 and if the other 4 look suspect at cornering just give it some welly. Not too sure how I'm going to keep the medevil suit of armour rust free...

I had to drop the alpacca jacket and ice cream bucket for a batman suit and a used engine oil container for a helmet... Never did manage to stop using good ol' 531 for the timetrial bike and thankfully my coach always brought along him 'magic secret' of tea 'n biscuits for after race recovery...

Geoff Vadar said:

I am developing a theory (naturally a correct theory) that this PM industry, in its current state, is an utter waste for all amateur athletes. Only guys looking for the last 2% of their ability should even consider a PM. In fact only pros and guys on talent identification programs should be using powermeters at their current prices.

When accurate powermeters cost around $300-400USD then I will reconsider my position.

At present they are a total [censored]. Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week.

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

Learn the farken sport morons not how to analyse a powermeter.

The end.

+1.......

blkhotrod said:

+1.......

yup results like these fall nicely into that teensy 2% range ...

😄 😄 😄

rmur17 said:

yup results like these fall nicely into that teensy 2% range ...

😄 😄 😄

I am reminded of a saying I picked up somewhere along the way:

"Ah, the great tragedy of science: the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by one ugly fact."

😄 😄 😄

Geoff Vadar said:

I am developing a theory (naturally a correct theory) that this PM industry, in its current state, is an utter waste for all amateur athletes. Only guys looking for the last 2% of their ability should even consider a PM. In fact only pros and guys on talent identification programs should be using powermeters at their current prices.

When accurate powermeters cost around $300-400USD then I will reconsider my position.

At present they are a total [censored]. Weekend warriors need to pull their heads in (that's everyone NOT racing A grade or Cat 1/2) and find a coach who will spend 1hr per week talking you through how your previous week went and whats on the cards the following week.

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

Learn the farken sport morons not how to analyse a powermeter.

The end.

++2

I thought "Coggan philosophy" was pro PM.

Geoff Vadar said:

Go and find someone who knows about the sport and can teach you things and pay them to help you train (whether its a coggan philosophy or otherwise). Then go away and train according to instruction using perceived effort.

wiredued said:

I thought "Coggan philosophy" was pro PM.

It is, but Andy discusses his ideas freely. The point is that you need to *pay someone* to tell you about it, in order to realize any benefit. Otherwise you're just a farken maroon. :p

frenchyge said:

It is, but Andy discusses his ideas freely. The point is that you need to *pay someone* to tell you about it, in order to realize any benefit. Otherwise you're just a farken maroon. :p

He does free coaching now for hack low level riders like you? I'd be very very surprised.

rmur17 said:

yup results like these fall nicely into that teensy 2% range ...

😄 😄 😄

Show me some evidence that your gains are unobtainable without the use of a powermeter. Your gains come about primarily from your application of training philosophy (or that of your coach).

A powermeter adds "efficiency of application" of your chosen training philosophy. It also adds intelligent feedback for coaches spending significant time planning detailed training schedules for elite athletes.

However the gains in "efficiency of application" over and above training governed by "perceived effort" would not be significant for hack middle aged C/D grade (Cat3/4/5) athletes.

Furthermore the intelligent feedback loop would be utterly under utilized by coaches in prescribing training to hack C/D (Cat3/4/5) because they simply wouldn't pay the coach enough to bother to "farm" the data.

So stop bringing me your 'look at my overall improvement' data and trying to lay it at the feet of your powermeters. That's [censored] and you know it. And Andy knows it.

Which brings me back to my original argument. They are overpriced to be realistic for club cyclists. If you can get a cheap one use it. If they want you pay $3000 tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Footnote: The other partial reasoning behind stirring the pot on this topic is to highlight that there is more to road racing than pretty excel sheets filled with wattage data. Guys coming into the sport might get mislead into thinking

a) that if Coach A doesn't have a clue about powermeters by extension he is inferior to Coach B who prescribes the purchasing of a powermeter. There is more to coaching than the physiology of any sport. It would be far more prudent for someone coming into the sport to seek out a coach with detailed knowledge of the application of required skillset/strategy over and above a coach whose focus is an applied physiological methodology. Like I said - learn the skills - leave the powermeter for down the track. Of course if you can find a coach who has the complete package then by all means seek him out and pay him well

and b) that if he decided to self prescribe his own training and doesnt buy a $2000 powermeter straight away he cant train properly or make gains or achieve his goals. Which of course is utter [censored].

Thus concludes my fair minded observations about pricing and utility of powermeter widgets in their current iteration.

Geoff Vadar said:

He does free coaching now for hack low level riders like you? I'd be very very surprised.

Free coaching??? What is that? You mean like the non-certified [censored] advice you see in threads here? 😕

You get what you farken pay for brudda. Now [censored].

But without a powermeter to give you feedback, you can not follow the training philosophy that rmur did.

Explain how your coach/yourself uses PE in your training regimen and what have been your results?

I have dealt with coaches who do, "go up this hill 10 times", "max effort for 5 minutes X 5 intervals" with no information other than how fast you completed last time. This type of training while can be fun, is not structured and gives you no idea how well you are doing.

The powermeter in and of itself is not worth much, it is the information it gives you to build a structured training program.

Please explain your results and training regimen using PE.

-js

Geoff Vadar said:

Show me some evidence that your gains are unobtainable without the use of a powermeter. Your gains come about primarily from your application of training philosophy (or that of your coach).

A powermeter adds "efficiency of application" of your chosen training philosophy. It also adds intelligent feedback for coaches spending significant time planning detailed training schedules for elite athletes.

However the gains in "efficiency of application" over and above training governed by "perceived effort" would not be significant for hack middle aged C/D grade (Cat3/4/5) athletes.

Furthermore the intelligent feedback loop would be utterly under utilized by coaches in prescribing training to hack C/D (Cat3/4/5) because they simply wouldn't pay the coach enough to bother to "farm" the data.

So stop bringing me your 'look at my overall improvement' data and trying to lay it at the feet of your powermeters. That's [censored] and you know it. And Andy knows it.

Which brings me back to my original argument. They are overpriced to be realistic for club cyclists. If you can get a cheap one use it. If they want you pay $3000 tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Geoff Vadar said:

Show me some evidence that your gains are unobtainable without the use of a powermeter. Your gains come about primarily from your application of training philosophy (or that of your coach).

A powermeter adds "efficiency of application" of your chosen training philosophy. It also adds intelligent feedback for coaches spending significant time planning detailed training schedules for elite athletes.

However the gains in "efficiency of application" over and above training governed by "perceived effort" would not be significant for hack middle aged C/D grade (Cat3/4/5) athletes.

Furthermore the intelligent feedback loop would be utterly under utilized by coaches in prescribing training to hack C/D (Cat3/4/5) because they simply wouldn't pay the coach enough to bother to "farm" the data.

So stop bringing me your 'look at my overall improvement' data and trying to lay it at the feet of your powermeters. That's [censored] and you know it. And Andy knows it.

Which brings me back to my original argument. They are overpriced to be realistic for club cyclists. If you can get a cheap one use it. If they want you pay $3000 tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Footnote: The other partial reasoning behind stirring the pot on this topic is to highlight that there is more to road racing than pretty excel sheets filled with wattage data. Guys coming into the sport might get mislead into thinking

a) that if Coach A doesn't have a clue about powermeters by extension he is inferior to Coach B who prescribes the purchasing of a powermeter. There is more to coaching than the physiology of any sport. It would be far more prudent for someone coming into the sport to seek out a coach with detailed knowledge of the application of required skillset/strategy over and above a coach whose focus is an applied physiological methodology. Like I said - learn the skills - leave the powermeter for down the track. Of course if you can find a coach who has the complete package then by all means seek him out and pay him well

and b) that if he decided to self prescribe his own training and doesnt buy a $2000 powermeter straight away he cant train properly or make gains or achieve his goals. Which of course is utter [censored].

Thus concludes my fair minded observations about pricing and utility of powermeter widgets in their current iteration.

In England I was lucky too hook up with one of the better coaches and paid a really small amount per week and a bit more for petrol at the weekends. Here for someone of the same quality, you'd be looking at $600+ per month... and to that end your arguement about any price point has just been torpedoed straight out of the water.

True, you can go fast without a power meter. We know that, it's what people have been doing for years but, given the circumstances of most here in the US where we don't have national caliber coaches giving up their time for the good of the sport and less than $10 per week, then having a knowledgeable person to discuss things with for an hour or so uninterupted just aint gonna happen.

I'm not going to say that my powermeter is as good as my old coach as he's forgotten more about the sport than I'll ever probably learn... but it gives me enough info to track training accurately and subjectively.

Geoff Vadar said:

Your gains come about primarily from your application of training philosophy.....

Training philosophy which can be freely gained through detailed discussions with field experts, such as we have here and in other internet forums. In fact, just from absorbing the conversations here and elsewhere I'm comfortable debating training philosophy with any of the local folks who peddle their coaching services in my area, and am pretty confident that I could come out ahead in any category except "that's how {insert your favorite pro's name here} did it." So much of coaching is salesmanship and motivation (and in many cases, imitation) that I'd say a new athlete is better off following a communally vetted training philosophy than following any particular coach.

Geoff Vadar said:

A powermeter adds "efficiency of application" of your chosen training philosophy.

Would you place the Performance Manager Chart tools under the "efficiency of application" category?

Geoff Vadar said:

It also adds intelligent feedback for coaches spending significant time planning detailed training schedules for elite athletes.

Coaches... or athletes. Again, with the right tools to de-mystify things such as correct dosing, intensity, timing with respect to target events, etc. there's really nothing that anyone smart enough to plug the stuff together couldn't understand. You argument here really goes back to "you hack C/D riders are too farken dumb to know anything, so pay a coach to tell you what to do," which obviously isn't worth the time it took to write it.

Geoff Vadar said:

However the gains in "efficiency of application" over and above training governed by "perceived effort" would not be significant for hack middle aged C/D grade (Cat3/4/5) athletes.

Couldn't be more wrong here. As I said early on, an athlete who only has 6-8 hrs available per week to train stands to gain a lot more through efficiency of application than an athlete who is already training 20+ hrs per week and is at 98% of their performance potential.

Geoff Vadar said:

Footnote: The other partial reasoning behind stirring the pot on this topic is to highlight that there is more to road racing than pretty excel sheets filled with wattage data.

Agree with that. This is the Training forum, however, so most of the conversations naturally deal with training and less with the finer points of the sport. There's a separate Road Racing forum which, judging by the quality (and quantity) of the threads there, could probably stand to benefit more from your pot stirring.

Geoff Vadar said:

He does free coaching now for hack low level riders like you? I'd be very very surprised.

Regardless of the level of the rider, my advice is, and always has been, free.

Geoff Vadar said:

Show me some evidence that your gains are unobtainable without the use of a powermeter. Your gains come about primarily from your application of training philosophy (or that of your coach).

That is a bit of a strawman argument, as the powermeter greatly aided in the "application of the training philosophy".

Geoff Vadar said:

A powermeter adds "efficiency of application" of your chosen training philosophy. It also adds intelligent feedback for coaches spending significant time planning detailed training schedules for elite athletes.

However the gains in "efficiency of application" over and above training governed by "perceived effort" would not be significant for hack middle aged C/D grade (Cat3/4/5) athletes.

Furthermore the intelligent feedback loop would be utterly under utilized by coaches in prescribing training to hack C/D (Cat3/4/5) because they simply wouldn't pay the coach enough to bother to "farm" the data.

That might be true where you live, but here in the US there are plenty of coaches who charge very little for their services, but spend plenty of time "farming" the data.

In any case, it seems that your criticism is really aimed at (what you perceive to be) the cost of good coaching, and not at powermeters.

Quoted post said:

So stop bringing me your 'look at my overall improvement' data and trying to lay it at the feet of your powermeters. That's [censored] and you know it. And Andy knows it.

Actually, I don't "know it". That is, I figure that the world can be divided into three camps:

1) those who figure out the best* way to train based on trial-and-error;

2) those who figure out the best way to train based on feedback from other people (and/or devices); and

3) those who never really figure out the best way to train.

What I think powermeters (and, IMO to a lesser extent, watches, speedometers, heart rate monitors, and blood lactate analyzers) tend to do is "speed up the learning curve", so there are fewer people in group 3, and more in group 2.
*Recognizing, of course, that "best" is a very broad category.

Quoted post said:

Which brings me back to my original argument. They are overpriced to be realistic for club cyclists. If you can get a cheap one use it. If they want you pay $3000 tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

A powermeter is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for one - period.

Quoted post said:

Footnote: The other partial reasoning behind stirring the pot on this topic is to highlight that there is more to road racing than pretty excel sheets filled with wattage data.

Remind us again of your background in the sport? ;-)

acoggan said:

That is a bit of a strawman argument, as the powermeter greatly aided in the "application of the training philosophy".

There is only one problem with that statement. There is no study that actually shows that a power meter "greatly" aids in the application of any training philosophy (unless, of course, the philosophy is one needs to train using power as the feedback but then there is no evidence that is a superior philosophy to any other).

Quoted post said:

Actually, I don't "know it". That is, I figure that the world can be divided into three camps:

1) those who figure out the best* way to train based on trial-and-error;

2) those who figure out the best way to train based on feedback from other people (and/or devices); and

3) those who never really figure out the best way to train.

What I think powermeters (and, IMO to a lesser extent, watches, speedometers, heart rate monitors, and blood lactate analyzers) tend to do is "speed up the learning curve", so there are fewer people in group 3, and more in group 2.
*Recognizing, of course, that "best" is a very broad category.

How can anyone ever know what is the absolute best way to train? There are simply too many variables. I can understand why a coach might like a power meter, as they get real data as to what the athlete is actually doing instead of what the athlete says they are doing, but there is no evidence that such data leads to superior results. Whatever one does one should always have in the back of their mind their might be a better way, always strive to do things better. That is what the power meter advocates are trying to do even though they are doing so more on faith than demonstrated superior effectiveness. Several current and recent world champions in cycling sports do not train with power meters - what does that mean? People who are content that their way of doing things is "the best" will probably find themselves in the back of the pack a few years down the line.

Geoff Vadar said:

Which brings me back to my original argument. They are overpriced to be realistic for club cyclists. If you can get a cheap one use it. If they want you pay $3000 tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Just like the carbon frames, $1200+ set of wheels and shoes that cost more than my first racing bike.

Cost really shouldn't be an arguement against equipment unless folks are starving their kids in order to buy the lastest widget.

Frank,

What is it about the words "aided" and "I think" that you do not understand?