[Helmets] Scene elsewhere

Tony Raven said:

A post in another place pointed out the following paper by Malcolm
Wardlaw wrote for Cycling Scotland:

http://www.cyclingscotland.org/downloads.asp?DLsection=11

How come the Scottish legislature gets all the sane stuff ? First the
access rules (compared to the mess of England and Wales) and now helmets.

Or do those in England only hear of the good stuff, and the Scots have their
fair share of rubbish (*)

* yes, I know the Parliament building was many times over budget, and some
strange projections were used to finance the Cairngorm railway. Ah, maybe
I've answered the point..

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Nigel Cliffe said:

* yes, I know the Parliament building was many times over budget,

Not wanting to defend the development process for Donalds folly, but it
is probably worth pointing out that the palace of Westminster was as
overbudget (20x) and as late as Holyrood, so it really is just following
precedents set south of the border.

...d

in message <[email hidden]>, Nigel Cliffe

(') said:

Tony Raven said:

A post in another place pointed out the following paper by Malcolm
Wardlaw wrote for Cycling Scotland:

http://www.cyclingscotland.org/downloads.asp?DLsection=11

How come the Scottish legislature gets all the sane stuff ? First the
access rules (compared to the mess of England and Wales) and now
helmets.

Or do those in England only hear of the good stuff, and the Scots have
their fair share of rubbish (*)

* yes, I know the Parliament building was many times over budget

But we've got a high quality national monument which will last for
generations. The extension building to the English parliament
(Portcullis House) was also over budget, and is just an office block.
The Millenium Dome was even more overbudget, built of tat, and is now
redundant. It's also worth pointing out that the entire cost of the
parliament building is less than the Scottish Executives this-year's
underspend.

In a city which already had two perfectly good parliament buildings
including Europe's oldest purpose built parliament building, building a
new one was of course a folly, inspired by the Labour Party's fear that
using the Carlton Hill building would be seen as a nationalist victory.
But it's done now. Let's move on.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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In article <[email hidden]>, Nigel Cliffe

Quoted message said:

Or do those in England only hear of the good stuff, and the Scots
have their fair share of rubbish (*)

We have professional politicians too!

--
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.millport.net

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3a8blaF67sp14U1
@individual.net:

Quoted message said:

A post in another place pointed out the following paper by Malcolm
Wardlaw wrote for Cycling Scotland:

http://www.cyclingscotland.org/downloads.asp?DLsection=11

Absolutely wonderful! Short and to the point with relevant citations for
those who want them. I'm printing out a few copies as I type this to give
to a couple of pro-helmet people I know who's opinions are stuck in the
"helmet=good' rut (my wife is one of them).

Graeme

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:16:34 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

But we've got a high quality national monument

It may be high quality, though a lot of inferior materials were used
in places.

A monument? Well, they managed what I thought was impossible,
something that looks worse than the St James shopping centre.

Quoted message said:

which will last for generations.

The Scottish and Newcastle officers were of a higher quality and
didn't last particularly long before being replaced by the folly.

There is hope that it will not last for generations. Perhaps someone
will interest a horseman in crashing some aeroplanes into the thing.
Note for the stupid, the last comment is not entirely serious.

Quoted message said:

In a city which already had two perfectly good parliament buildings
including Europe's oldest purpose built parliament building, building a
new one was of course a folly, inspired by the Labour Party's fear that
using the Carlton Hill building would be seen as a nationalist victory.

London Labour thought that it would be a Labour Party stronghold
when they decided on the location. In the case of Calton Hill they
didn't want their bods standing up too often, although such a system
appears to be well liked in the Westminster Parliament. The other
buildings are occupied by legal bods.

Quoted message said:

But it's done now. Let's move on.

That's what those with a guilty conscience want.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:16:34 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it's done now. Let's move on.

Quoted message said:

That's what those with a guilty conscience want.

I don't have any guilty conscience about it (why should I?), but I'd
sooner folk moved on to what the policies coming out of the building are
rather than moaning about the building itself, as that will achieve
basically nothing useful.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:01:09 +0000 someone who may be Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it's done now. Let's move on.

Quoted message said:

That's what those with a guilty conscience want.

I don't have any guilty conscience about it (why should I?),

I didn't claim anyone other than those involved have guilty
consciences. I am being generous to them by assuming they have
consciences, something many of them have shown they do not have by
voting for the deaths of 100,000 people in an illegal war and the
subsequent occupation which is still going on.

Quoted message said:

but I'd
sooner folk moved on to what the policies coming out of the building are
rather than moaning about the building itself, as that will achieve
basically nothing useful.

I disagree. Reminding them of their past failures is part of a drip
drip process of beating the arrogance out of them so that they make
better decisions in the future.

If party politicians think they can get away with things then they
will continue to try to take even more.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

I disagree. Reminding them of their past failures is part of a drip
drip process of beating the arrogance out of them so that they make
better decisions in the future.

Or part of the drip drip that makes honest grass roots folk frankly not
want to be arsed to go through all the demonising and leave it to the
professional weasels who have /much/ better back waxing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:56:02 +0000 someone who may be Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I disagree. Reminding them of their past failures is part of a drip
drip process of beating the arrogance out of them so that they make
better decisions in the future.

Or part of the drip drip that makes honest grass roots folk frankly not
want to be arsed to go through all the demonising

"Honest grass roots folk" can do so if they really want to, as
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1443253,00.html
shows.

There is seldom a shortage of people who want to stand in political
elections, other than community councils (and council elections in
some places). Indeed, if we are to believe the writings of Adam
Smith (which most party politicians do), we could probably reduce
the money paid to them to a negative amount and there would still be
plenty of volunteers. A real example of supply and demand.

Quoted message said:

and leave it to the
professional weasels who have /much/ better back waxing.

You need to consider the party political system. This does indeed
encourage weasels, but it is not of the making of us plebs. If they
wish to be respected better they can heal themselves and beg for
forgiveness.

Proportional Representation via party lists does have downsides,
including in some ways giving more power to those that control
weasels. However, the Scottish Parliament is far more representative
than the Westminster version, or Councils, because of the
proportional element. This is so important that the Liberal
Democrats are in favour for councils, even though they acknowledge
that it will reduce the number of councillors they have. Community
Councils are on a small enough scale that the first past the post
system has some validity.

I know some "honest grass roots folk" who have gone through the
"demonising" to take up positions in various places. While they
would all like the, "is there anything else you would like to tell
us Minister", approach they know this is unlikely. Cut and thrust is
what politics is all about. The Socialists, Greens and Independents
in Dewar's Folly are perhaps the most well known examples. There are
also some examples in the larger political parties. As it happens I
saw Tommy Sherridan arriving for the demonstration in Glasgow on
Saturday. He arrived on foot with a lady, perhaps his mother. There
was no mass media following him and I didn't notice any interviews
with him in the mass media I read and listened to. As far as I can
tell he simply went on the demonstration because he believes in the
cause.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On 22/3/05 3:16 pm, in article [email hidden],

David Hansen said:

As it happens I
saw Tommy Sherridan arriving for the demonstration in Glasgow on
Saturday. He arrived on foot with a lady, perhaps his mother. There
was no mass media following him and I didn't notice any interviews
with him in the mass media I read and listened to. As far as I can
tell he simply went on the demonstration because he believes in the
cause.

I have a lot of respect for Tommy Sheridan. Not that I agree with his
policies, but I respect him as someone who will do what he believes in and
will make few compromises. That doesn't mean I'd vote for him. As it is my
local MP's are a pair of weasels.

...d

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:27:08 +0000 someone who may be David Martin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I have a lot of respect for Tommy Sheridan. Not that I agree with his
policies, but I respect him as someone who will do what he believes in and
will make few compromises. That doesn't mean I'd vote for him.

I think it is clear that the proportional element in the Scottish
Parliament has allowed more people who are not in the usual mould to
be elected. I think this is good. The Socialists and Greens seem to
be shaping up quite well and doing some good work. I don't agree
with all the Socialists' policies and neither do I agree with all
the Greens' policies either. However, they don't have the "you must
agree to everything" approach some of the other parties have.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> breathed:

Quoted message said:

I have a lot of respect for Tommy Sheridan. Not that I agree with his
policies, but I respect him as someone who will do what he believes in and
will make few compromises.

Agreed. I have very little truck with socialism, but I'd say TS is a
shining example of what a real politician should be - someone who stands
up for his principles and the principles of the people who voted for
him, come what may and at whatever personal cost.

We need more like him, in all the parties.

--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.

in message <[email hidden]>, David Hansen

(') said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:16:34 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it's done now. Let's move on.

That's what those with a guilty conscience want.

Look, I've never been a defender of the Labour Party, but continually
raking over old coals is actually damaging to us as a nation.
The chief 'guilty party' was Donald Dewar. He's a man who did a great
deal for Scotland, and he's dead. So blaming him is neither graceful
nor useful. Furthermore, while clearly there was a calculation in the
Labour Party that using Carlton Hill would somehow have benefitted the
nationalists, I do think a large part of Dewar's motivation was to
create a building the nation can engage with and be proud of, and when
we finally overcome this tide of negativity I think we will find he has
succeeded in that.

The overspend comes down to three things: the initial negotiation of the
contract, which was entirely a Westminster issue; the undue haste and
lack of foresight at the planning stage, which was entirely a
Westminster issue; and the failure of our own Parliament and civil
service to control the costs or abort the project, which provides
lessons we must learn. But let's learn the lessons, celebrate the
building, and move on.

I'm not one with a guilty conscience. I've always felt the proper place
for the parliament was back in its old home, but I've always been
prepared to accept Carlton Hill. I've always said the new building was
a folly and a distraction. But we've got it now. There is no sense in
demolishing it or selling it (since it would be of virtually no use for
any other purpose). And continuing to girn on about it undermines our
national institutions and our sense of ourselves as a nation.

Let's just _not_.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

David Hansen said:

I disagree. Reminding them of their past failures is part of a drip
drip process of beating the arrogance out of them so that they make
better decisions in the future.

Or part of the drip drip that makes honest grass roots folk frankly
not want to be arsed to go through all the demonising and leave it to
the professional weasels who have /much/ better back waxing.

Hear, hear.

All the 'continual drip, drip' does is turn ordinary people away from
politics altogether; all the continual attacks on our parliament as an
institution does is to undermine our national self confidence and thus
bolster the old corrupt institutions of the Union. It is wholly
negative, wholly useless, and reflects no credit on anyone. If you
can't campaign for something positive, don't campaign at all.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:33:01 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

All the 'continual drip, drip' does is turn ordinary people away from
politics altogether;

More people than ever are taking part in politics though. While
political parties fade to almost nothing, membership of other
political organisations is not fading. Mr Liar has not been allowed
to forget his part in the death of 100,000 people, despite his
desperate attempts to divert attention elsewhere.

People are not taking part in systems that they consider are
pointless it is true, but that is called choice. Most party
politicians claim they are in favour of choice. Instead people are
developing politics as it really is, rather than assuming it is
something done by others in remote places. ISTM that politics is
getting stronger at the moment, what is getting weaker are party
political institutions. If these institutions wish to remain
relevant they have to pull their socks up.

Voting every five years achieves little. As the old anarchist saying
goes, if voting did change anything they would abolish it.

Quoted message said:

all the continual attacks on our parliament as an
institution does is to undermine our national self confidence

I disagree. Attacks on Dewar's Folly are attacks on Dewar's Folly,
not the nation. It is a bad sign when such attacks are not made. A
happy ship is one where the sailors are complaining and saying they
wished they had never joined. A ship where the sailors sullenly say
nothing is one where mutiny is close.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:29:38 +0000 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Look, I've never been a defender of the Labour Party, but continually
raking over old coals is actually damaging to us as a nation.

I don't agree.

Quoted message said:

The chief 'guilty party' was Donald Dewar.

And those around him. Most of these people are still around in
positions of influence I gather.

Quoted message said:

He's a man who did a great deal for Scotland,

Indeed, including devolution. It is a great pity he marred his
generally good record with this huge mistake. One can say the same
about other party politicians, not all of them dead.

Quoted message said:

and he's dead. So blaming him is neither graceful

There are many dead people whose actions are still discussed with
passion, including a number of party politicians. Why make an
exception for this man?

Quoted message said:

nor useful.

While the number of parliament buildings to be built in future is
limited, the problems are not particular to parliament buildings. It
is very useful to lean what went wrong with this building and try to
ensure lessons are learnt.

Quoted message said:

I do think a large part of Dewar's motivation was to
create a building the nation can engage with and be proud of,

It may well have been. However, having good motivations does not
exempt someone from being criticised for the results of their
actions.

Quoted message said:

and when
we finally overcome this tide of negativity I think we will find he has
succeeded in that.

Engaging with a building is one thing, but engaging with the people
working there is I suggest more important. The talk of openness we
heard before the folly was built has been shown to be incorrect. The
building is not open to us plebs in many ways. They even object to
having a bus stop outside the folly.

As for being proud of the building, why should people be proud of
something even more ugly then the St James Centre? I am a great fan
of contemporary architecture, if it is done well. The folly fails on
just about every count.

Quoted message said:

There is no sense in demolishing it

The only valid reason I can see for not demolishing the folly is
that this would not be environmentally friendly. It would mean extra
greenhouse gas emissions and represent a waste of raw materials.
Therefore it should be recycled.

Quoted message said:

or selling it (since it would be of virtually no use for
any other purpose).

I suspect that nobody has looked into it in detail. Hotel/hostel and
small exhibition centre are two possible alternative uses. The
Labour Party are happy to keep Peter Mandelson's dome in London
empty, but I wouldn't recommend this for the folly. They could also
restore the road they closed, forcing cyclists into undesirable
detours.

Quoted message said:

And continuing to girn on about it undermines our
national institutions

Why?

Quoted message said:

and our sense of ourselves as a nation.

Why?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

People are not taking part in systems that they consider are
pointless it is true, but that is called choice. Most party
politicians claim they are in favour of choice.

Choice is not necessarily a good thing. This "choice" about hospitals,
for example; if I need medical care, I don't want to fart around
"choosing" which is the best hospital to treat me. I want the best
possible treatment at my local hospital. Period.

R.

On 23/3/05 12:10 pm, in article [email hidden],

David Hansen said:

Most party
politicians claim they are in favour of choice.

All party politicians are in favour of choice. Which choice they are in
favour of is a completely different question.

...d