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Helmets

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UK and Europe
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7 September 2004
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Peter Taylor
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Malcolm
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Peter B said:

    "the.Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I went on a paragliding course once. They do make a point of teaching you
    how to fall. All the bruises I got that day were from jumping down the


    hill

    Quoted message said:

    and trying to fall without hurting myself. I can't see how this would
    transfer to falling off a bike though the main point being keeping the


    legs

    Quoted message said:

    together with the knees slightly bent.

    Quoted message said:

    Also keeping your arms folded across your chest. But the point in common is
    overcoming instincts to stretch out your hands and risk a broken collar bone
    and also to roll rather than splat.

    Nothing wrong with stretching out the arms to protect in a fall. The
    broken wrist or collarbone happens when you *straighten* the
    arm. *That's* the thing to avoid.


    Even an un-extended arm can exert enough leverage to easily dislocate
    the shoulder, catch the elbow right and 'pop', out it comes (goes).

    Tends to happen even easier on previously dislocated limbs, trust me, I
    know :-(

    When ski-ing, I now tend to do the arms across the chest thing in a
    fall.
    --
    Phil

  2. Phil Passmore said:

    Even an un-extended arm can exert enough leverage to easily
    dislocate the shoulder, catch the elbow right and 'pop', out it
    comes (goes).

    As i found out when sliding feet first, ski-less down a black run
    desperatlty trying to grab hold of the mountan before I fell off it!

    My abiding memory is of the two nurses on my RHS pulling one way and the
    doctor on my LHS with his foot in my arm pit, pulling for all his worth to
    get the damn thing back in!

    ---

    PK

    ---

  3. PK said:

    As i found out when sliding feet first, ski-less down a black run
    desperately trying to grab hold of the mountain before I fell off it!

    Not much fun... If you've still got a pole then you can get a partially
    effective self-arrest using the same technique as you would with an ice
    axe. It doesn't work nearly as well as an ice-axe, but it does work,
    and I've actually used it to stop myself after a fall.

    Next recommendation (from the "experts", and no, I'm really /not/
    joking) is do a push-up. Tends to get the binding ridges on the toes or
    the boots digging in to slow you down. I've not tired this in anger,
    it's the sort of thing where practise will get you injured...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  4. On 13 Sep 2004 16:11:10 -0700, [email hidden] (Russell) wrote
    (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry to post on this subject again.

    Actually since anecdotes provide so much proof of the life saving qualities
    of h...h.....h.......HELMETS.....there, I've said it, I've been digging into
    my own memory for instances I've witnessed, or been close to the source, of
    people banging their noggins' during involuntary dismounts so I can get an
    idea of the danger being protected against.
    And you know what? I can only recall banging my head once when cycling into
    the back of a parked lorry while daydreaming as a kid, during all
    involuntary dismounts/collisions I've landed on everything but my head.
    To cast my research further afield I've thought about all the people I've
    ridden with and all the events I've attended and can only recall one
    instance where a friend head-butted a rock when landing from a fall whilst
    mtbing (and I wasn't present that day so have to rely on witnesses) and
    suffered minor concussion.

    My conclusion from this is that the odds on landing on your head rather than
    outstretched hands, shoulder, arrse, knees, hip etc are slim indeed.
    One of my justifications for wearing one when mtbing is that if nothing else
    it protects my head from overhanging branches, but of course without the
    added height of the h****t I'd probably not collide with them in the first
    place.

    Pete

    Those are reasonable anecdotes. I hope you don't get flamed!
    I take the point that merely wearing a helmet increases the size and
    therefore the likelyhood of hitting your head. But looking at my
    helmet (no not that one!), its only about 1/2" thick so I can't
    believe it makes a lot of difference.

    I did some checks on this a while ago, using my own skull and cycle
    helmet as 'typical'.

    The increase in moment arm from increased head size was 35%, and the
    increase in neck angle to 'tuck in' a head was 300%.

    Quoted message said:

    I spent most of my lunchtime
    today trawling the net for some true scientifc research and found
    plenty. I'm not surprised to say I didn't find any scientific evidence
    to support the theory that wearing a helmet increases the risk of
    injury. I know I'm going to get all the [censored] flaming me for this
    but I reckon that's just a dangerous myth. So, come on all you
    anti-helmet brigade. Show me one true scientific study that concludes
    wearing a helmet can increase the risk of injury.

    Here's just one study to the contrary - sorry about the massive link.
    I hope it posts ok.

    I can post many more.
    Russell

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/320/21/1361?maxtoshow=&HITS=20&hits=20&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Thompson&titleabstract=Bicycle&searchid=1004370623714_124372&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=PUBDATE_SORTDATE+desc+Score+desc&fdate=1/1/1988&tdate=10/31/1990&journalcode=nejm

    --
    Cheers,
    Euan
    Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

  5. On 19/9/04 11:16 pm, in article [email hidden],
    "Gawnsoft" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    I still can't access your web server.. Still hangs and just 'waits'

    ...d

  6. Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:


    I know I'm going to get all the [censored] flaming me for this
    but I reckon that's just a dangerous myth.

    You live in a world where anyone who disagrees with your point of view
    is a [censored] so there is not much point.

    No, I was referring to the likes of Ian Smith that wade in with abuse
    when they see any post they disagree with.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone who tries to point out
    the counter arguments is so mentally inferior to you obviously that
    whatever they post is irrelevant

    No, I have followed the links with interest. I'm actually still quite
    open minded about the whole issue. Just very suprised.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, come on all you
    anti-helmet brigade. Show me one true scientific study that concludes
    wearing a helmet can increase the risk of injury.

    HEAD INJURIES AND BICYCLE HELMET LAWS
    D L Robinson. Accident Analysis & Prevention 28(4):463-475, 1996

    Can you post a link please.

    Quoted message said:

    The efficacy of bicycle helmets against brain injury
    Curnow WJ 2003. Accident Analysis and Prevention: 2003; 5.2.03

    for starters.

    Quoted message said:

    Here's just one study to the contrary - sorry about the massive link.
    I hope it posts ok.

    I can post many more.
    Russell

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/320/21/1361?maxtoshow=&HITS=20&hits=20&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=Thompson&titleabstract=Bicycle&searchid=1004370623714_124372&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=PUBDATE_SORTDATE+desc+Score+desc&fdate=1/1/1988&tdate=10/31/1990&journalcode=nejm

    Good grief. The most discredited study out there as your first choice of
    evidence.

    Tony

  7. Russell said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    HEAD INJURIES AND BICYCLE HELMET LAWS
    D L Robinson. Accident Analysis & Prevention 28(4):463-475, 1996

    Can you post a link please.

    Sorry, its not available on line unless you are an Elsevier subscriber -
    you'll just have to do it the old fashioned way by going to a good
    library. Here's the abstract:

    Abstract: The first year of the mandatory bicycle helmet laws in
    Australia saw increased helmet wearing from 31% to 75% of cyclists in
    Victoria and from 31% of children and 26% of adults in New South Wales
    (NSW) to 76% and 85%. However, the two major surveys using matched
    before and after samples in Melbourne (Finch et al. 1993; Report No. 45,
    Monash Univ. Accident Research Centre) and throughout NSW (Smith and
    Milthorpe 1993; Roads and Traffic Authority) observed reductions in
    numbers of child cyclists 15 and 2.2 times greater than the increase in
    numbers of children wearing helmets. This suggests the greatest effect
    of the helmet law was not to encourage cyclists to wear helmets, but to
    discourage cycling. In contrast, despite increases to at least 75%
    helmet wearing, the proportion of head injuries in cyclists admitted or
    treated at hospital declined by an average of only 13%. The percentage
    of cyclists with head injuries after collisions with motor vehicles in
    Victoria declined by more, but the proportion of head injured
    pedestrians also declined; the two followed a very similar trend. These
    trends may have been caused by major road safety initiatives introduced
    at the same time as the helmet law and directed at both speeding and
    drink-driving. The initiatives seem to have been remarkably effective in
    reducing road trauma for all road users, perhaps affecting the
    proportions of victims suffering head injuries as well as total
    injuries. The benefits of cycling, even without a helmet, have been
    estimated to outweigh the hazards by a factor of 20 to 1 (Hillman 1993;
    Cycle helmets-the case for and against. Policy Studies Institute,
    London). Consequently, a helmet law, whose most notable effect was to
    reduce cycling, may have generated a net loss of health benefits to the
    nation. Despite the risk of dying from head injury per hour being
    similar for unhelmeted cyclists and motor vehicle occupants, cyclists
    alone have been required to wear head protection. Helmets for motor
    vehicle occupants are now being marketed and a mandatory helmet law for
    these road users has the potential to save 17 times as many people from
    death by head injury as a helmet law for cyclists without the adverse
    effects of discouraging a healthy and pollution free mode of transport.
    Copyright (C) 1996 Elsevier Science Ltd. [References: 59]

    Tony

  8. Tony Raven said:
    Russell said:
    Quoted message said:

    >

    HEAD INJURIES AND BICYCLE HELMET LAWS
    D L Robinson. Accident Analysis & Prevention 28(4):463-475, 1996

    Can you post a link please.

    Sorry, its not available on line unless you are an Elsevier subscriber -

    Sorry again, it is after all at
    http://tinyurl.com/5qycw

    Tony

  9. Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    The benefits of cycling, even without a helmet, have been estimated to
    outweigh the hazards by a factor of 20 to 1

    Seems a very conservative estimate to me. Or perhaps that's just another
    example of common sense being wrong...

    --
    Chris

  10. Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:

    Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    On 11 Sep 2004 15:16:36 -0700, Russell <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote ...
    > > Russell wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Well if I could interject a single statistic here:
    > >
    > > A single statistic?!!!!
    > > How bloody pointless is that?
    >
    > So I am "pointless" am I?

    And stupid, too.

    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

    It's quite interesting - you can argue rationally with them, and it
    doesn't improve their understanding of the issues - we _still_ get
    endless dodgy anecdotes masquerading as facts or (worse) proofs. If
    you just swear at them (or dismiss them, as above) I think it is no
    less likely to educate, but it feels a whole lot less frustrating.

    I guess the next step is to go completely cold turkey and just stop
    reading teh helmet threads, but there's a strange morbid fascination
    in watching teh slaughter of reason and logic.

    Anyway, Russell, I do wear a helmet, though if the rate of wearing
    goes up much higher, I shall probably have to stop, in order to do my
    bit to stave off compulsion.

    regards, Ian SMith

    I'm confused, I thought you were advocating not wearing one. Anyway
    I've been off sick for the last 2 days with sinusitis & right now I
    feel like banging my head against a brick wall without a helmet. I
    feel too C**P to sit in front of the PC.

    Russell

  11. Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:

    Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    On 11 Sep 2004 15:16:36 -0700, Russell <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > "John Mallard" <not_me@all> wrote ...
    > > Russell wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Well if I could interject a single statistic here:
    > >
    > > A single statistic?!!!!
    > > How bloody pointless is that?
    >
    > So I am "pointless" am I?

    And stupid, too.

    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

    It's quite interesting - you can argue rationally with them, and it
    doesn't improve their understanding of the issues - we _still_ get
    endless dodgy anecdotes masquerading as facts or (worse) proofs. If
    you just swear at them (or dismiss them, as above) I think it is no
    less likely to educate, but it feels a whole lot less frustrating.

    I guess the next step is to go completely cold turkey and just stop
    reading teh helmet threads, but there's a strange morbid fascination
    in watching teh slaughter of reason and logic.

    Anyway, Russell, I do wear a helmet, though if the rate of wearing
    goes up much higher, I shall probably have to stop, in order to do my
    bit to stave off compulsion.

    regards, Ian SMith

    I'm confused, I thought you were advocating not wearing one. Anyway
    I've been off sick for the last 2 days with sinusitis & right now I
    feel like banging my head against a brick wall without a helmet. I
    feel too C**P to sit in front of the PC.

    Russell

  12. Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony Raven said:
    Russell said:

    >>
    >
    > HEAD INJURIES AND BICYCLE HELMET LAWS
    > D L Robinson. Accident Analysis & Prevention 28(4):463-475, 1996
    >

    Can you post a link please.

    Sorry, its not available on line unless you are an Elsevier subscriber -

    Sorry again, it is after all at
    http://tinyurl.com/5qycw

    Tony

    Tony,
    Thanks Tony. Right now my brain isn't working as I have a bad dose of
    non-helmet induced sinusitis & I'm finding this a struggle.

    From what I can make out of the Australia/New Zealand situation, its
    difficult to distil any hard cycle helmet facts out of the results as
    the legistlation was combined with several other safety measures.

    I'm beginning to take a view that in relatively slow speed accidents,
    say upto 20mph as an arbitrary figure, with no other vehicle involved,
    the cyclist is unlikly to suffer brain damage with our without a
    helmet. This is due to the relatively slow falling speed giving the
    rider time to take evasive action, i.e. put a hand out & maybe break a
    coller bone. Even if the head does come in contact with the ground
    there is less force involved so less risk of injury. As the majority
    of a popluations's cycled miles will be covered at below 20mph, maybe
    this is why the figures show no real improvement in brain damage
    victims.

    Now as a competetive roadie I spend a fair proportion of my time
    travelling over 20mph, regularly over 30mph and occasionally over
    50mph. Thankfully I've only had this one experience of falling at
    around 30mph. It happened very quickly & there was no time to put out
    a hand or foot or anything (although the fingers on the other hand got
    mashed as I rolled I think). Consequently, my whole body hit the road
    side on and as my body was decelerated by the ground, my head
    continued on the short journey to the road to make its own impact.
    Whether or not I would have suffered brain injury is something we will
    never know but I still believe it saved me from a nasty head injury.

    With regard to accidents involving other vehicles, I do not suppose
    the helmet provides very much protection, hence no discernable
    difference in the brain injury figures. Surely though some protection
    is better than none at all.

    For the record, I am strongly against compulsory helmets, except for
    car drivers that is. Then maybe we would see a substantial decrease in
    car usage, less car users dying of heart conditions and less cyclists
    being hit by cars!

    Russell
    Nw, there's a pain in my head & I'm going to bed.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>, Russell

    Quoted message said:

    Right now my brain isn't working as I have a bad dose of non-helmet
    induced sinusitis & I'm finding this a struggle.

    I used to suffer badly from sinusitis. A good help was to take some
    warm sea water and sniff it up each nostril - result was a bit
    disgusting but a clear head was brilliant.

    --
    A T (Sandy) Morton
    on the Bicycle Island
    In the Global Village
    http://www.millport.net

  14. On 22 Sep 2004 14:16:29 -0700, [email hidden] (Russell) wrote in
    message <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    From what I can make out of the Australia/New Zealand situation, its
    difficult to distil any hard cycle helmet facts out of the results as
    the legistlation was combined with several other safety measures.

    So compare the figures for cyclists and pedestrians. The pedestrians
    benefited from all the other road safety interventions, but were not
    subject to helmet compulsion.

    Guess what?

    The trends are the same.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm beginning to take a view that in relatively slow speed accidents,
    say upto 20mph as an arbitrary figure, with no other vehicle involved,
    the cyclist is unlikly to suffer brain damage with our without a
    helmet.

    Correct.

    Quoted message said:

    As the majority
    of a popluations's cycled miles will be covered at below 20mph, maybe
    this is why the figures show no real improvement in brain damage
    victims.

    Incorrect. The reason is that most serious & fatal head injuries are
    sustained in collisions involving motor traffic, which commonly exceed
    the rated capacity of top grade motorsports helmets.

    Quoted message said:

    Now as a competetive roadie I spend a fair proportion of my time
    travelling over 20mph, regularly over 30mph and occasionally over
    50mph. [... HSML anecdote ...]

    Since all pro racers now wear plastic hats all the time, all the pros
    who have died of head injury recently, have been wearing plastic hats
    at the time. Amazingly the failure of the mandatory helmets to reduce
    the already small number of fatalities has been greeted with silence
    by the Liddites.

    Quoted message said:

    With regard to accidents involving other vehicles, I do not suppose
    the helmet provides very much protection, hence no discernable
    difference in the brain injury figures. Surely though some protection
    is better than none at all.

    Where is the evidence to supoprt that supposition?

    Quoted message said:

    For the record, I am strongly against compulsory helmets, except for
    car drivers that is. Then maybe we would see a substantial decrease in
    car usage, less car users dying of heart conditions and less cyclists
    being hit by cars!

    http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/SeatbeltLaws.html

    Think again.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  15. Russell said:


    With regard to accidents involving other vehicles, I do not suppose
    the helmet provides very much protection, hence no discernable
    difference in the brain injury figures. Surely though some protection
    is better than none at all.

    The $64m question though is whether it is some protection or some harm.
    In the sorts of accidents you are talking about the body gets
    differentially accelerated and the head rotates relative to the body
    about the neck. Put extra mass on the head and you accentuate the
    problem with potentially worse neck and brain rotational injuries (the
    main brain injury problem in cyclists). The helmet makes your head
    larger and more likely to hit something and when it hits the helmet, by
    increasing the effective diameter of the head increases the leverage put
    on the neck and the rotational decelleration of the head relative to the
    brain. So is it protecting or harming? The answer is nobody knows for
    sure but the whole population statistics point towards harm by some
    mechanism. Whether it is the mechanisms above or risk compensation or
    something else is unknown.

    At the end of the day though its your brain and you must make your
    decisions for it.

    Tony

  16. Russell said:

    Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote ...

    Quoted message said:
    Russell said:


    I can see why you don't bother wearing a helmet Ian. It would be a bit
    like putting a knackered hard drive in bubblewrap.

    Anyway, Russell, I do wear a helmet, though if the rate of wearing
    goes up much higher, I shall probably have to stop, in order to do my
    bit to stave off compulsion.

    I'm confused, I thought you were advocating not wearing one.

    It's just another example of an unwarranted assumption you've jumped
    to. No-where have I said I don't wear a helmet. Indeed, I am on
    record several times explaining why I wear a helmet.

    Perhaps (just perhaps) it's true what you've repeatedly been told -
    practically no-one is anti-helmet, but there are a lots of people who
    are anti-compulsion.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  17. Sandy Morton said:

    I used to suffer badly from sinusitis. A good help was to take some
    warm sea water and sniff it up each nostril - result was a bit
    disgusting but a clear head was brilliant.

    Wow! Can you do that? I can't force my brain to allow me to inhale water
    through my nostrils, or at least that's my memory of the times I tried it
    when I was a kid. I've no doubt it works, though no idea why!

    I usually use the "pinch the bridge of the nose" technique.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
    University

  18. Russell said:

    Now as a competetive roadie I spend a fair proportion of my time
    travelling over 20mph, regularly over 30mph and occasionally over
    50mph. Thankfully I've only had this one experience of falling at
    around 30mph. It happened very quickly & there was no time to put out
    a hand or foot or anything (although the fingers on the other hand got
    mashed as I rolled I think). Consequently, my whole body hit the road
    side on and as my body was decelerated by the ground, my head
    continued on the short journey to the road to make its own impact.
    Whether or not I would have suffered brain injury is something we will
    never know but I still believe it saved me from a nasty head injury.

    We need to be careful about defining "nasty head injury". Yes, your
    head would have probably continued to the road and had its own special
    impact, but having had it it would have probably bounced back up,
    leaving you with a nasty graze and a fair sized bump. Brain injury?
    Well, a mild concussion is technically a brain injury, but permanent
    damage? Very, very, very unlikely, and I say that looking at the rash
    of non-brain damaged old roadies who've had the odd fall at speed.

    Is it worth protecting yourself against a nasty graze, a good size bump
    and a bloody awful headache? Certainly, at least if all else is equal.
    But I don't think it's completely safe to assume it is.

    Quoted message said:

    With regard to accidents involving other vehicles, I do not suppose
    the helmet provides very much protection, hence no discernable
    difference in the brain injury figures. Surely though some protection
    is better than none at all.

    Only if it will make a /useful/ difference. If it makes the difference
    between dying instantly and dying a minute later, or the difference
    between having to identify the body from dental records or not then
    that's a /difference/, but not, I would suggest, a useful one.
    And since motor vehicle collisions involve forces far beyond the design
    specs of cycle helmets this is the area you're in. A cycle helmet well
    beyond its design spec will just smash to pieces with brittle failure
    and absorb little tangible force (think of a very strong ceramic tile
    with a nail being driven through the middle, and how it just smashed
    having offered little real resistance), so it's not likely to do much to
    help.

    Think how a tough leather jacket would possibly be a fair bit of use
    against stray duckshot. Would you really care whether you were wearing
    one or not against targeted high velocity rifle fire?

    The sorts of forces bike helmets will usefully deal with are not the
    sort of forces that are likely to cause KSI accidents. They deal with
    the sort of thing that will hurt, but will not likely do really serious
    damage. Like gardening gloves they can save pain, but not usually
    lives. Unlike gardening gloves they only deal with very uncommon acute
    problems, not ever-present chronic ones.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  19. Quoted message said:

    Russell wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Now as a competetive roadie I spend a fair proportion of my time
    travelling over 20mph, regularly over 30mph and occasionally over
    50mph.

    However, as a utility trundler I spend a fair proportion of my time doing
    less than 10mph. Compulsory helmet laws don't seem to take differences
    like that into account.

    Roos

  20. Roos Eisma said:

    However, as a utility trundler I spend a fair proportion of my time
    doing less than 10mph. Compulsory helmet laws don't seem to take
    differences like that into account.

    So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
    recumbent? Just curious.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
    University

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