Helmets

Just zis Guy said:

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

Yes. Acute memory loss of the immedaite incident and the following
events up until waking up in hospital the next morning, and concussion
bad enough to make me basically useless for the following week and still
take a second week off work.

I got picked up by a car coming out of a collision while I was waiting
to cross the road, sat in a side turning. Difficult to say for sure,
but circumtantial evidence suggests I was broadsided and my head banged
down onto the car as my right knee was banged into the frame, probably
the handlebar stem. My helmet was shattered on the right side. Before
I'd found out more about brittle failure I thought it might have saved
me a fractured skull, if not my actual life. Not so sure now, though if
I had to repeat the accident again and had a chopice of wearing it or
not I'd prefer to have it on. Of course, I could have been caught by
the same car, out of its drivers control through no fault of his own,
had I been walking across that side road as a pedestrian, so even at the
time I didn't take it as a Good Reason To Always Wear A Helmet.

That accident is why I don't ride an Orbit Crystal any more. The frame
came out of it so as to make it a bent 'bent :-(

I fell off it on another occasion from a comedy SPuD non-getout, and
having initially found the cornering unburstable on another occasion did
find its limuts and lost it trying a 110 degree bend with an adverse
camber down a hill where I'd "forgotten" to brake first. Wearing
running shorts, so that hurt a bit, but my helmet didn't take any of it.
I've come off the Streetmachine a couple of times braking on loose
gravel at the bottom of a hill, once on a patch of oil, once getting
bogged down in wet cement (!) and once in loose, dry sand. Not banged
my head yet.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

Quoted message said:

Yes. Acute memory loss of the immedaite incident and the following
events up until waking up in hospital the next morning, and concussion
bad enough to make me basically useless for the following week and still
take a second week off work.

Quoted message said:

I got picked up by a car coming out of a collision while I was waiting
to cross the road, sat in a side turning.

Does 'sitting there waiting' count as 'riding'? ;-)

Quoted message said:

I fell off it on another occasion from a comedy SPuD non-getout, and
having initially found the cornering unburstable on another occasion did
find its limuts and lost it trying a 110 degree bend with an adverse
camber down a hill where I'd "forgotten" to brake first. Wearing
running shorts, so that hurt a bit, but my helmet didn't take any of it.
I've come off the Streetmachine a couple of times braking on loose
gravel at the bottom of a hill, once on a patch of oil, once getting
bogged down in wet cement (!) and once in loose, dry sand. Not banged
my head yet.

Trying to ride under low barriers (which /is/ tempting :-) might result in
a headache.
A rowing friend got a bad case of whiplash rowing under a too low bridge
- and every time there is a winter with good ice skating in the NL a
couple of people misjudge the height of bridges. Nobody is wearing helmets
for rowing or skating though.

Roos

Tony Raven said:

At the end of the day though its your brain and you must make your
decisions for it.

Evolution tried designing animals which were unlikely to get hurt
because they were armoured against injury. Most of those animals
became extinct a long time ago. Evolution moved on to bigger brain
sizes and discovered that a more efficent and cost-effective route to
avoiding injury was by being fast-reacting and intelligent rather than
stupid and armoured.

It would appear that human road safety designers are still largely
stuck in the early armoured dinosaur design phase. The SUV with its
bull bars is the latest florid stage of these stupid armour wars, a
kind of motorised version of the triceratops. In place of predators we
have accidents happening at higher and higher speeds as drivers feel
more and more protected by the increasing crash survivablity of their
vehicles.

The road armour wars are going to go and on until someone is smart and
courageous enough to stop them. Courageous? Lots of people are making
lots of money out of the armour wars...
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Just zis Guy said:

Sandy Morton wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I used to suffer badly from sinusitis. A good help was to take some
warm sea water and sniff it up each nostril - result was a bit
disgusting but a clear head was brilliant.

Quoted message said:

Wow! Can you do that? I can't force my brain to allow me to inhale water
through my nostrils, or at least that's my memory of the times I tried it
when I was a kid. I've no doubt it works, though no idea why!

My sister and I used to drink clear soup through our noses in order to
disgust our mother. I guess Mum won in the end, because we too now find
it disgusting.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Peter Clinch said:

My helmet was shattered on the right side. Before I'd found
out more about brittle failure I thought it might have saved me
a fractured skull, if not my actual life.

Not trying to fan any flames (;-) , but... I follow all the arguments about
energy absorption and brittle fracture, but surely any head protection
helmet works in two ways: energy absorption and load spreading? The latter
operates beyond the point of brittle fracture?

pk

PK said:

Not trying to fan any flames (;-) , but... I follow all the arguments about
energy absorption and brittle fracture, but surely any head protection
helmet works in two ways: energy absorption and load spreading? The latter
operates beyond the point of brittle fracture?

Just as energy absorption is vastly reduced if you have brittle failure,
so will load spreading. In order to spread the energy across the
maximum area the material doing that needs to maintain its integrity in
order for the energy to be transferred through it.

Think of traversing an icy pond and staying dry by spreading your weight
around as much as possible. The thought experiment is to try it before
and after the ice is shattered (you can try it for real in a shallow
pond if you like, but I think you'll see the point before then!).

Though do note I said I'd prefer to have had my hat on than off if I did
have to make the choice in some celestial action-replay. I doubt the
lid made the difference between what I did get and a considerably more
serious injury, but 10 days feeling like a blob rather than 11 would
mean I had a day extra of worthwhile time.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just zis Guy said:

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

Sunburn.

John B

you know? said:

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

No, but I could have - rolled it (maybe 'flipped' would be more
accurate) practicing handbrake turns. However, my head missed the
ground while going over and I only suffered a bruised thigh.

However, if the helmet laws are patterned after motorbike helmet laws,
I won't need a helmet, because it's a trike.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Just zis Guy said:

Roos Eisma said:

However, as a utility trundler I spend a fair proportion of my time
doing less than 10mph. Compulsory helmet laws don't seem to take
differences like that into account.

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

No, I just need elbow helmets on mine. Done both sides now.

Peter

P.S. At the risk of prolonging this thread even further, I was
astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which was
not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
(having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb club
hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
"surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole population
evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
even more interesting to me.

Peter Amey said:

... I was
astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which was
not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
(having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb club
hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
"surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole population
evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
even more interesting to me.

It is an interesting subject to me as well - what further directions and aspects fascinate you Peter?

[email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

Sandy Morton wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I used to suffer badly from sinusitis. A good help was to take some
warm sea water and sniff it up each nostril - result was a bit
disgusting but a clear head was brilliant.

Quoted message said:

Wow! Can you do that? I can't force my brain to allow me to inhale water
through my nostrils, or at least that's my memory of the times I tried it
when I was a kid. I've no doubt it works, though no idea why!

My sister and I used to drink clear soup through our noses in order to
disgust our mother. I guess Mum won in the end, because we too now find
it disgusting.

I have done the old salt water up the nose trick, but it is pretty
difficult.
I now have a contact lense cleaner bottle with an enlarged hole that I
fill up with salt water & squirt that up my nose! Its also pretty good
as a home ear syringing kit!

Russell

RogerDodger said:

Peter Amey said:

... I was
astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which
was
not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
(having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb
club
hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
"surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole
population
evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
even more interesting to me.

It is an interesting subject to me as well - what further directions
and aspects fascinate you Peter?

I am interested in reconciling two observed phenomena:

1. My (unscientific) experiment involving a club hammer and a helmet
which impressed me with its strength and convinced me that if anyone is
going to hit me over the head wih a hammer then I would rather I was
wearing a helmet.

2. The absence of any detectable reduction in KSI rates in areas where
there has been a step change in helmet wearing patterns.

I think reconciling these would be a very valid use of research funding.

Possible explanations include:

1. Risk compensation. A real, well documented phenomenon but unclear
whether it is enough on its own.

2. Real accidents bear no resemblance to being hit over the head with a
hammer.

3. Helmets may increase one class of injury (e.g. rotational) even
while protecting from others (e.g. impact).

4. Inadequcy of data recording. This one actually troubles me a bit.
The category "serious injury" covers a very wide range; a couple of
stitches to a scalp wound or permanent brain damage. It is feasible
that helmets _are_ offering real protection by converting the latter to
the former but this does not result in any reduction in recorded injury
rates. I am somewhat doubtful because I would expect to see some
reduction in fatalities as well; however, we know that cyclists with
fatal head injuries usually have other mortal injuries as well.

5. Change in population exposed to risk. We know that compulsory
helmet waering deters cycling overall; but, might it also encourage
nervous cyclists who previously would not have ridden at all but now
feel able to do so because of protective gear (and farcilities). Might
these be the very class of cyclists who are most likely to have an accident?

I don't know the answers to any of the above but I'd like to.

Peter

[snip]
and

6. Increased helmet wearing through compulsion reduces the number of
cyclists and there is a clear and known correlation between cyclist
numbers and safety.

Peter

Peter Amey wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

[snip]
and

6. Increased helmet wearing through compulsion reduces the number of
cyclists and there is a clear and known correlation between cyclist
numbers and safety.

and,

7. The rabid anti-helmet zealots forced to wear a helmet deliberately
crash to skew the statistics.

Also,

8. Many trundlies cycle at 12mph. This is just as dangerous as cycling at
7538094759842 mph, according to Pool Smyth, leader of the crack Safe-
Speeding wing of the National Socialist German Drivers Party.

On 27 Sep 2004 12:26:05 GMT, Mark Thompson
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Peter Amey wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

[snip]
and

6. Increased helmet wearing through compulsion reduces the number of
cyclists and there is a clear and known correlation between cyclist
numbers and safety.

and,

7. The rabid anti-helmet zealots forced to wear a helmet deliberately
crash to skew the statistics.

Also,

8. Many trundlies cycle at 12mph. This is just as dangerous as cycling at
7538094759842 mph, according to Pool Smyth, leader of the crack Safe-
Speeding wing of the National Socialist German Drivers Party.

Plus.

9. Effects of Heat stress on cyclist judgement (due to wearing a
thick layer of polystyrene insulating foam on your head while upping
bodily heat output from 100W up to 500-900W)

10. Effects of sweat streaming into your eyes (due to wearing a
thick layer of polystyrene insulating foam on your head while upping
bodily heat output from 100W up to 500-900W)

I also think that 1 needs splitting into 1a risk compensation by the
cyclist wearing the helmet and 1b, effect of risk compensation by the
motor vehicle operators around the cyclist wearing the helmet.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Mark Thompson said:

Peter Amey wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

[snip]
and

6. Increased helmet wearing through compulsion reduces the number of
cyclists and there is a clear and known correlation between cyclist
numbers and safety.

and,

7. The rabid anti-helmet zealots forced to wear a helmet deliberately
crash to skew the statistics.

Also,

8. Many trundlies cycle at 12mph. This is just as dangerous as cycling at
7538094759842 mph, according to Pool Smyth, leader of the crack Safe-
Speeding wing of the National Socialist German Drivers Party.

9. Motorists don't try as hard to avoid cyclists wearing helmets, or
having more cyclists wearing helmets makes motorists think it's more
acceptable to hit cyclists since it makes it clear it's a dangerous
occupation and therefore the cyclists fault for being hit.

On 27 Sep 2004 12:26:05 GMT someone who may be Mark Thompson
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

8. Many trundlies cycle at 12mph. This is just as dangerous as cycling at
7538094759842 mph, according to Pool Smyth, leader of the crack Safe-
Speeding wing of the National Socialist German Drivers Party.

The best post this week, so far:-)

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Peter Amey <[email hidden]> wrote:
....
| P.S. At the risk of prolonging this thread even further, I was
| astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which was
| not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
| set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
| (having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb club
| hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
| inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
| understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
| "surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole population
| evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
| even more interesting to me.

Is it possible the thing was flexing, since there was so solid object
inside it, and thereby absorbing more energy that it would normally?

--
Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK
http://www.anweald.co.uk

Patrick Herring said:

Peter Amey <[email hidden]> wrote:
...
| P.S. At the risk of prolonging this thread even further, I was
| astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which was
| not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
| set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
| (having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb club
| hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
| inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
| understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
| "surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole population
| evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
| even more interesting to me.

Is it possible the thing was flexing, since there was so solid object
inside it, and thereby absorbing more energy that it would normally?

Very possibly. There was nothing very scientific about what I did but I
must admit I had rather expected the thing to crumble into a heap of
dust at the first blow!

Peter

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:23:06 +0100, Peter Amey
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

Roos Eisma said:

However, as a utility trundler I spend a fair proportion of my time
doing less than 10mph. Compulsory helmet laws don't seem to take
differences like that into account.

So true. Has anyone around here sustained a head injury while riding a
recumbent? Just curious.

No, I just need elbow helmets on mine. Done both sides now.

Peter

P.S. At the risk of prolonging this thread even further, I was
astonished just how tough my last PFDB was. I broke the strap which was
not replaceable and that rendered it scrap. Before throwing it away I
set about it with a wooden mallet, a large rubber mallet and finally
(having failed to make any visible effect on it at all) with a 4lb club
hammer. Even that took four lusty blows before I got the polystyrene
inner to separate from the skin. The experience makes me better
understand the cognitive dissonance people suffer from between the
"surely they must do some good" and the absence of any whole population
evidence that they do. The issue of "why" helmets don't work is now
even more interesting to me.

Put a raw egg (in it's shell, underneath a thick sheet of plate steel.

Hit the plate steel with a 4lb hammer.

Be astonished at how the plate steel is still intact after the blows.

Clean up the broken egg.

:-)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk