Groupsets and prices

D.M. Procida said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is
suitable for which application) features of the various groupset
classes are?

No, not all that. See manuacturer websites for weights and some specs.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is
suitable for which application) features of the various groupset
classes are?

No, not all that. See manuacturer websites for weights and some specs.

I have, which is why I'm asking. Have a look at:

<http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/products/category.jsp?FOLDER%
3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302049838&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181667&
bmUID=1192642190747>

for example.

Dura-ace: Performance without compromise
Ultegra: New spirit of the sport
Ultegra SL (2008): lightweight and new Ice Grey color
Tiagra (2007): Advanced functions for sport and fitness riders

That provides no clue whatsoever about the place of these products
within Shimano's hierarchy. It's all marketing-speak with hardly any
content. One or two do give away a bit:

Sora (2008): Great appearance for entry level riders.

Looking more closely at the specs doesn't say much more, really, unless
weight is the ultimate guage of the product's place in the
manufacturer's range.

Daniele

(D.M. Procida) said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is suitable
for which application) features of the various groupset classes are?

I see Tiagra, Sora and what-not written all over the place, but I don't
know what they actually mean.

I compiled a list for myself for the 2007 Shimano range of products with
the marketing blurb underneath it. Two ranges: road and mtb, listed from
most expensive to most affordable. You can expect weight order to be
lightest to heaviest.

FWIW it is my experience that all Shimano's groupsets perform
adequately, including the cheapest lines.

You might want to try stating what you are looking for since there are
differences between groupsets that are not evident from this list.

Shimano products 2007
---------------------

Road range
----------

Dura-Ace 7800
Performance without compromise

Dura-Ace 7803 - Triple
Dura-Ace Triple

Ultegra 6600
Ultegra defines the "New Spirit of the Sport"

Ultegra 6603 - Triple (52-39-30) (10 speed)
Proven in your neighborhood and on the world's greatest road courses.

Shimano 105 - 5600
From Shimano's experience in pro road racing - Shimano 105

Shimano 105 - Triple (50-39-30) (10 speed)
From Shimano's experience in pro road racing - Shimano 105

Tiagra (triple: 52-42-30) (9 speed)
Components for a new generation of recreational road bikes

Sora
For the more casual sport-recreation road bike

2200
Affordable components to inspire more people to enjoy road cycling

MTB range
---------

XTR
The benchmark of cross country component design

Deore XT
The tradition of shimano MTB components

Deore LX
High-energy components that are at home on or off the road

Saint 135
Heavy duty MTB components for bikes with 135mm rear hub spacing

Saint 150
Heavy duty MTB components for bikes with 83mm BB shell & 150mm rear
hub spacing

Hone
Affordable All-Mountain & enduro MTB components

Deore
High-perfomance components for serious cycling fun

Alivio
Great performance and great MTB fun, on or off-road.

Acera
8-speed recreational components

Altus
Responsive MTB-style components

Tourney
Looks and performance for entry model sport bikes

--
Membrane

Membrane said:

(D.M. Procida) said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is suitable
for which application) features of the various groupset classes are?

I see Tiagra, Sora and what-not written all over the place, but I don't
know what they actually mean.

You might want to try stating what you are looking for since there are
differences between groupsets that are not evident from this list.

Mainly, I'm trying understand bike manufacturers' specs, because I have
to replace some kit that was stolen.

Anyway, it's road/touring bike kit.

I'm more puzzled than ever now - lots of touring or road bikes seem to
be equipped with mountain-bike gearsets (most of the Dawes touring
range, for example).

So is there a real difference between road and mountain-bike gear-sets
then?

Thanks for the list, it's helpful.

Daniele

D.M. Procida said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is
suitable for which application) features of the various groupset
classes are?

No, not all that. See manuacturer websites for weights and some specs.

I have, which is why I'm asking. Have a look at:
<http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/products/category.jsp?FOLDER%
3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302049838&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181667&
bmUID=1192642190747>
Looking more closely at the specs doesn't say much more, really, unless
weight is the ultimate guage of the product's place in the
manufacturer's range.

It is all down to weight and longevity.
The cheaper they are, the heavier, and poorly made they are (mostly -
there are a few exceptions).
All will work perfectly well when new. Some will wear out quicker, and
cannot be repaired, so new component needed. Rear deraileurs are
considered to be a service part, and will need renewing occasionally, as
are chains and cogs.
Go for mid range and the parts will last a reasonable time in use.
Have a look at Campagnolo equipped bikes, the groupset prices are
similar, and sometimes cheaper, with IMO, better quality, and (mainly)
repairable shifters and deraileurs, so if you break a spring, it can be
repaired, unlike with shimano, where a broken spring means a new
component rather than a repair.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

D.M. Procida said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is
suitable for which application) features of the various groupset
classes are?

No, not all that. See manuacturer websites for weights and some
specs.

I have, which is why I'm asking. Have a look at:

<http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/products/category.jsp?FOLDER%
3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302049838&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474395181667&
bmUID=1192642190747>

for example.

Dura-ace: Performance without compromise
Ultegra: New spirit of the sport
Ultegra SL (2008): lightweight and new Ice Grey color
Tiagra (2007): Advanced functions for sport and fitness
riders

That provides no clue whatsoever about the place of these products
within Shimano's hierarchy.

They are in order from most expensive and lightest to cheapest and heaviest.

Quoted message said:

It's all marketing-speak with hardly any
content.

That's why I recommend the sites only for weights and /some/ specs. For
some you have to delve deep into PDF exploded diagrams and instructions, and
compare small parts of components of one group with another. They don't
make it easy!

Quoted message said:

One or two do give away a bit:

Sora (2008): Great appearance for entry level riders.

Looking more closely at the specs doesn't say much more, really,
unless weight is the ultimate guage of the product's place in the
manufacturer's range.

Yes it is.

The cheaper groups tend to be adequately strong and durable. In fact some
bits of them like chainrings are /more/ durable in some cases, since they
are made from steel instead of aluminium.

The more expensive groups may have some more durable parts, but in the main
they are just lightier, prettier and have more twiddly bits for adjustment,
etc. Also, not so many gears with the cheapest Shimano groups.

~PB

D.M. Procida said:

Membrane said:

(D.M. Procida) said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is
suitable for which application) features of the various groupset
classes are?

I see Tiagra, Sora and what-not written all over the place, but I
don't know what they actually mean.

You might want to try stating what you are looking for since there
are differences between groupsets that are not evident from this
list.

Mainly, I'm trying understand bike manufacturers' specs, because I
have to replace some kit that was stolen.

Anyway, it's road/touring bike kit.

I'm more puzzled than ever now - lots of touring or road bikes seem to
be equipped with mountain-bike gearsets (most of the Dawes touring
range, for example).

So is there a real difference between road and mountain-bike gear-sets
then?

In Shimano-land, the "road" groupsets tend to have fairly close-ratio rear
sprockets, and the rear-changers are designed for those small ranges.
Therefore, in order to get wide-range gears (for lugging a loaded tourer up
a mountain pass), makers end up with the MTB rear sprockets and rear
derailleur. That then tends to dictate a MTB crankset (or you end up with
the stupidity of a 53-11 top gear on a tourer, or the maker has to
substitute individual rings which gets very expensive). However, the
general drift to 10-speed for STI levers may cause some problems for those
bike makers unless the MTB ranges also go 10-speed.

The front changers for Shimano used (think still do) to have different cable
pulls between MTB and Road, so to use the drop-bar STI levers, the front
derailleur needs to be a Road one.

The standard width of a rear-hub is 130mm for "road" and 135mm for "MTB".
But there is nothing to stop a frame maker producing a tourer with 135mm
rear spacing. Sprockets from either MTB or Road will fit either hub types
(subject to derailleur capacity).

As for quality, I suspect go above LX or 105 and you're really into "cannot
tell difference unless professional racing" territory.

Campagnolo-land is different. However, the 2007 range seems to have made
some of the non-standard combinations more complicated (such as mixing
Campag ergo-shifters with other makers derailleurs and sprockets).

Hope this helps.

- Nigel

--

Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

D.M. Procida said:

Mainly, I'm trying understand bike manufacturers' specs, because I
have to replace some kit that was stolen.

Anyway, it's road/touring bike kit.

First decide on: size gears you want, type of shifters, amount to spend.

Quoted message said:

I'm more puzzled than ever now - lots of touring or road bikes seem to
be equipped with mountain-bike gearsets (most of the Dawes touring
range, for example).

"Road" groupsets are still designed largely with racing in mind, despite
them including triple chainsets. But you could make them more suitable for
touring type bikes by fitting smaller chainrings or using a touring chainset
from another maker -- having ring sizes in between those used for
racing/training and mountain biking. Dawes's solution is poor, IMHO.

Quoted message said:

So is there a real difference between road and mountain-bike gear-sets
then?

Major differences with gear ratios, and types of handlebars the shifters are
designed for. MTB hubs are better sealed as well.

~PB

D.M. Procida said:

Looking more closely at the specs doesn't say much more, really, unless
weight is the ultimate guage of the product's place in the
manufacturer's range.

Daniele

With an engineering background you can read more into the specs 😉

sticking to roadbikes

Finish of Sora is a bit cheapish, with the brakelevers having sharp
bits/shiftlevers sticking out
Tiagra is perfectly adequate
105 is a bit nicer with lighter chainrings, better finish on the hubs etc
As you had to ask Ultegra is probably not worth the expense, unless you
do high mileage as the chainrings will last a bit longer or you happen
to find a particular good deal

Ultegra SL, Dura Ace: not worth it for you, either you know you /NEED/
the stuff or you can safely ignore it

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

M-gineering said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

Campag spares are easy to find online.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

M-gineering said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

Campag spares are easy to find online.

~PB

Only works if you do your own maintenance and if the mail isn't on strike 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

alan@darkroom.+.com (A.Lee) said:

It is all down to weight and longevity.
The cheaper they are, the heavier, and poorly made they are (mostly -
there are a few exceptions).

I'd say the opposite is more likely to be true. At the top end it is
all about minuscule performance advantages, durability is not relevant
to the target group: the pro's. Pro's don't give a mickey for how long
something lasts, they usually get their gear for free.

--
Membrane

in message
<[email hidden]>,

D.M. Procida (') said:

Is there somewhere that will inform me what the quantitative (as in:
better, lighter, stronger) and qualitative (as in: which one is suitable
for which application) features of the various groupset classes are?

I see Tiagra, Sora and what-not written all over the place, but I don't
know what they actually mean.

Nasty Japanese muck - don't touch it.

My 'good' bike is all Centaur, which is third-from-top Campag - about the
same engineering quality as top of the range Shimano. It's all very nice
and, three years on, everything still just works[tm] (it does have
this-year's QS Ergo levers). My cross bike has the old Ergo levers from my
good bike, a Centaur BB, Centaur cassette, Xenon (bottom of the range)
crankset, Veloce derailleurs. It's a revelation how crisp even cheap
Campag transmissions are even on truly evil hills - changing gear under
full out-of-the-saddle stomping load is just click, click, click.

Seriously, and religion apart, I do think you get substantially better
value for money from Campag than from Shimano. Similar quality engineering
is cheaper; all the spare parts are available (you can't get spares for
STI levers, you can for Ergos); and it all works so much better.

What you pay extra for (at least with Campag) are better finish and more
exotic materials. The bottom of the range stuff is light, strong and well
engineered, but the finish isn't that durable - for example the branding
on the Xenon crankset is essentially paper labels stuck on. The Centaur
stuff is mostly aluminium (some carbon fibre, this year), but it's all
exceedingly highly polished and well finished, and my three-year old, been
through one major crash and about 10,000 miles, kit looks pretty much like
new, so it's durable. The higher groupsets have more carbon and titanium.

A complete Xenon 10 speed groupset (without hubs) will set you back under
£190. A complete Centaur set (again no hubs) is twice as much at £380.
Chorus is twice as much again and I think you're into diminishing returns;
Record is close to a thousand for the groupset, and definitely into
diminishing returns (but gorgeous).

Against that, you'll pay pretty much the same price for Dura-Ace as for
Chorus, or pretty much the same for Ultegra as for Centaur, and I just
don't think it's good enough at that price. For the price of a Xenon 10
speed group, Shimano will sell you Sora - which is only 8 speed, and not
nearly so slick in use. If you've got pots of money to spend the new SRAM
groupsets are worth a look because they genuinely are really nice, but
Rival is between Centaur and Chorus in price while Force is up there with
Record.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

The difference is you phone the nice man at Parkers and every last screw
and spring from everything Campag has made in the past ten years -
probably longer - is available by next day's post at reasonable price. If
you want bits to fix a Shimano STI lever or derailleur, you can whistle -
they aren't available at all.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.

(D.M. Procida) said:

Mainly, I'm trying understand bike manufacturers' specs, because I have
to replace some kit that was stolen.

It would help to know what gearing and controls you had on your bike and
how you got on with it.

Quoted message said:

I'm more puzzled than ever now - lots of touring or road bikes seem to
be equipped with mountain-bike gearsets (most of the Dawes touring
range, for example).

MTB gearing goes lower and is thereby more suitable for more leisurely
riders, loaded touring, and for those of us who are not supremely fit.

My "sportive" bike is equipped with a low end MTB gearing and it works
very well for me. It allows me to get up really steep mountains without
having to stretch myself (I can stay seated and spin my way up with an
80rpm cadence on the steepests of inclines). Having to overcome
inadequate gearing by standing can sour up leg muscles through a build
up of lactic acid, something that can wreak havoc later on a longer
ride. Even on long rides when my legs have gone I can still get home in
relative comfort if there are one or more mountains to be scaled.

The downside of lower MTB gearing is that you'll run out of top gears
earlier, but that only happens to me on steep descends.

--
Membrane

Membrane said:

Quoted message said:

Mainly, I'm trying understand bike manufacturers' specs, because I have
to replace some kit that was stolen.

It would help to know what gearing and controls you had on your bike and
how you got on with it.

Dawes Horizon - <http://www.dawescycles.com/dawes/horizon.htm>. I assume
the specification is pretty much the same as the 2005 model.

That says: "24 speed Shimano Alivio with STI shifters".

I got on with it just fine. I mostly stayed in the middle chainring, and
made use of most of the cassette. I did occasionally shift for another
gear only to find that the next sprocket was too far in the other
direction, so perhaps that suggests they should have been closer
together (or perhaps it suggests that I'm a bit weedier than I'd like to
think).

Quoted message said:

My "sportive" bike is equipped with a low end MTB gearing and it works
very well for me. It allows me to get up really steep mountains without
having to stretch myself (I can stay seated and spin my way up with an
80rpm cadence on the steepests of inclines). Having to overcome
inadequate gearing by standing can sour up leg muscles through a build
up of lactic acid, something that can wreak havoc later on a longer
ride. Even on long rides when my legs have gone I can still get home in
relative comfort if there are one or more mountains to be scaled.

The downside of lower MTB gearing is that you'll run out of top gears
earlier, but that only happens to me on steep descends.

I bottled out of my fastest descent at about 66km/h, and while I was
pedalling fast in top gear, it was still comfortably in my range.

Daniele

(D.M. Procida) said:

That says: "24 speed Shimano Alivio with STI shifters".

I got on with it just fine. I mostly stayed in the middle chainring, and
made use of most of the cassette. I did occasionally shift for another
gear only to find that the next sprocket was too far in the other
direction, so perhaps that suggests they should have been closer
together (or perhaps it suggests that I'm a bit weedier than I'd like to
think).

Compared to road gearing, mtb gearing has bigger jumps between gears, no
way to solve that other than moving to road gearing. Alivio comes in
different chainring configurations, the most common is 42-32-22,
48-38-28 is also an option. Given that the gearing on your bike suited
you, I's suggest staying with the same gearing you had. What model you
choose is far less important than choosing the right gear ratios.

--
Membrane

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need an
update?

Quoted message said:

The difference is you phone the nice man at Parkers and every last screw
and spring from everything Campag has made in the past ten years -
probably longer - is available by next day's post at reasonable price. If
you want bits to fix a Shimano STI lever or derailleur, you can whistle -
they aren't available at all.

Given the list of available spares for brakes or rear derailleurs I'm
getting more and more concerned about those dictionaries 😉:
Y5VB34000
Y5VB19000
Y52U98010
Y5U525000
Y5VA16000
Y53M24000
Y5U523000
Y54A18200
Y56954420
Y56954400
Y5TW35010
Y56954900
Y56954700
Y5TW35020
Y5TJ98050
Y5V598050
Y5VA10100
Y5TN98030
Y5VA10000
Y5UN21000
Y53N26000
Y5VB18000
Y5UN98100
Y5VN98090
Y5TJ98100
Y5VM98070
Y5VP98050
Y53H98080
Y53Z98100
Y54B98030
Y55798080
Y56398370
Y5T498040
Y5T798010
Y5T898040
Y5TJ98080
Y5TJ98140
Y5TP98080
Y5TW98040
Y5TZ98110
Y5U398070
Y5U598080
Y5UF98050
Y5V598070
Y5VG98100
Y5VH98100
Y5VH98110
Y53H98100
Y53Z98110
Y54B98040
Y55798100
Y56398390
Y5T298010
Y5T498050
Y5T598020
Y5T798030
Y5T898050
Y5TJ98090
Y5TJ98160
Y5TP98090
Y5TW98050
Y5TZ98130
Y5U598100
Y5UF98060
Y5V598090
Y5V998060
Y56398100
Y5VP10000
Y5T098070
Y5TJ09000
Y5TM98040
Y5U509000
Y5VG09000
Y5VJ09000
Y5TP10400
Y5U510000
Y53Z08000
Y53Z08200
Y53Z08300
Y5TJ08000
Y5V508100
Y5TJ98120
Y5U598040
Y5VA98050
Y5TK98040
Y5TM98030
Y5U598050
Y5VA98060
Y5TK98030
Y5TZ28000
Y5T098020
Y5T498020
Y5TZ98010
Y5TZ98030
Y5VW98030
Y5UG98020
Y5VM98030
Y5VP98040
Y5VB98050
Y5TW98020
Y53Z98050
Y5TJ98040
Y5V598040
Y5VG98050
Y52A98010
Y53Z98040
Y54N98030
Y5T498060
Y5TJ98030
Y5VA98030
Y5VG98040
Y5VM98020
Y5VN98030
Y5VP98030
Y5TW98010
Y53Z98010
Y5TA98010
Y5TJ98010
Y5TJ98110
Y5TK98010
Y5TL98010
Y5TM98010
Y5TR98010
Y5TS98010
Y5TU98010
Y5TZ98070
Y5U498010
Y5U598010
Y5V598010
Y5V998010
Y5VA98010
Y5VB98010
Y5VG98010
Y5VG98020
Y5VJ98010
Y5VM98010
Y5VP98010
Y5U598030
Y54Z98080
Y3C298030
Y5VB33000
Y5TP98030
Y5TN13000
Y5VB98030
Y6FM98110
Y6FM98100
Y6BD90800
Y6GT51000
Y6CX98080
Y6GT01000
Y6GT89100
Y6GT89000
Y6KK53000
Y6KK03000
Y6GT88100
Y6GT88000
Y6KK52000
Y6KK02000
Y6CU39000
Y6JJ70000
Y6JB98050
Y6BX98080
Y6GR98060
Y6JJ56000
Y6JX66000
Y6GR98050
Y6JJ07000
Y6JX20000
Y6LK98010
Y6CT98090
Y6CX98150
Y6GR98040
Y6JA98090
Y6JJ98040
Y6JX98040
Y6KB98040
Y6KC98040
Y6CX98140
Y6GR98030
Y6JA98080
Y6JJ98030
Y6JX98030
Y6KB98030
Y6KC98030
Y6LK18000
Y6BX98190
Y6A798020
Y6B398020
Y6BK98040
Y6FM98030
Y6GL98050
Y6GR98080
Y6GR98150
Y6GS98040
Y6JJ98060
Y6JK98040
Y6JX98060
Y6JY98040
Y6GS98060
Y6A798010
Y6B398010
Y6B398030
Y6BK98030
Y6BY98010
Y6C198010
Y6C198030
Y6FM98010
Y6FM98020
Y6FM98140
Y6FM98150
Y6GL98010
Y6GL98030
Y6GR98070
Y6GS98030
Y6JJ98050
Y6JK98030
Y6JX98050
Y6JY98030
Y6KT98010
Y6KT98020
Y6KT98030
Y6KT98040
Y6KT98050
Y6KT98060
Y6JJ98100
Y6JX98180
Y6JJ98090
Y6JX98170
Y6GR98110
Y6KB59000
Y6GR98100
Y6GS98050
Y6KB09000
Y6GS98080
Y6GS98070
Y67D98050
Y66E98100
Y6FM98130
Y6FM98120
Y6BX98020
Y6BX98010
Y6BX98170
Y6GR48000
Y6GR48100
Y6GS98120
Y6JK98070
Y89E05010
Y6GR98160
Y6JJ98170
Y8TS98020
Y6JB98030
Y6JX98230
Y6CH98080
Y6CJ98060
Y6GR98200
Y6JJ98200
Y6JK98060
Y6AU98100
Y6CH98070
Y6CJ98050
Y6GR98190
Y6JJ98190
Y6JK98050
Y6CX98070
Y6CX98060
Y32532000
Y6BD76000
Y6BD76010
Y6AU84000
Y8SZ07100
Y6AU84200
Y6GR49000
Y6JJ13000
Y6JJ78000
Y6GR47000
Y6JJ14000
Y6JJ14010
Y6BK50000
Y6BD33000
Y6BS42000
Y6CU13000
Y6CX48000
Y6JA44000
Y7A298010
Y6BS86000
Y6A843010
Y6BD98050
Y6BZ98050
Y6BZ98060
Y6GT98060
Y6C898080
Y6CT98070
Y6CU89010
Y6CU89020
Y6GP98090
Y6K298080
Y6K298090
Y6B498030
Y6BD98140
Y6BS89040
Y6C898060
Y6CT98060
Y6JA98060
Y6K298070
Y6JA98070
Y6BD00010
Y6BZ98090
Y6C898070
Y6CT98100
Y6CU98040
Y6CX98110
Y6JA98100
Y6K298100
Y6LP98070
Y85Z98050
Y85Z98070
Y87G98010
Y87G98011
Y6B498060
Y6BZ98080
Y6B498050
Y6BZ98070
Y6GS98140
Y6JY98070
Y6GS98130
Y6JY98060
Y6BD85000
Y6GS98100
Y6JA82000
Y6K287100
Y6BD75000
Y6JA81000
Y6K287000
Y6KT98130
Y6KT98140
Y6A767000
Y6AM98040
Y6AR98040
Y6B354000
Y6B354010
Y6BT98040
Y6CA98020
Y6EX98070
Y6FM98090
Y6GL98090
Y6A722000
Y6A722010
Y6B304000
Y6B304100
Y6BT98030
Y6BY17000
Y6BY17010
Y6CA98010
Y6FM98180
Y6FM98190
Y6GL98070
Y6GL98080
Y6GR98210
Y6B304010
Y6B304110
Y6FM98080
Y6JB98010
Y6B798020
Y6B798060
Y6BX98040
Y6BX98140
Y6C098020
Y6B798050
Y6BD91400
Y6BX98030
Y6BX98130
Y6C098010
Y6JA98110
Y6KT98160
Y85Z98020
Y6BD98110
Y6GA98030
Y6GR86000
Y6JJ83000
Y6JB98040
Y6CH86000
Y8XV98010
Y6GR98090
Y67B91010
Y67B91000
Y67D98010
Y67D98020
Y6GR28000
Y6JJ12000
Y6JX98130
Y6BD98040
Y6C898050
Y6CX98040
Y6FL98020
Y6GP98060
Y6GT98040
Y6BD98030
Y6C898040
Y6CX98030
Y6GP98050
Y6BD98120
Y6JA98040
Y6K298060
Y8SB10000
Y33098110
Y85Z98010
Y6LK98050
Y6BD98060
Y6C898030
Y6CX98050
Y6FL98040
Y6GP98070
Y6GT98050
Y6JA98030
Y6K298020
Y6K298050
Y6KE98050
Y6KK98030
Y6CT98040
Y6CT98030
Y6KD98030
Y6LP98040
Y6B998040
Y6BZ98130
Y6B998030
Y6BZ98120
Y6LP98030
Y6BX98120
Y6BX98110
Y6JB98070
Y6JB98080
Y6LK98040
Y6GR98130
Y6JJ98080
Y6JX98160
Y6GR98120
Y6LK98030
Y6JJ98070
Y6JX98150
Y6KT98180
Y6KT98170
Y6BX98100
Y6BX98220
Y6BX98090
Y6GR98020
Y6GR98010
Y6CH98060
Y6JK98020
Y6CH98050
Y6GS98010
Y6JJ98020
Y6JJ98010
Y6JJ98140
Y6JX98090
Y6JJ98130
Y6JX98080
Y6BS84000
Y6KE98020
Y6KE98030
Y6KE98010
Y6LP98010
Y6B698020
Y6B998080
Y6BZ98110
Y6C898020
Y6CT98020
Y6CX98130
Y6FL98010
Y6GP98030
Y6GT98020
Y6JA98020
Y6K298030
Y6K298040
Y6LP98020
Y6B698010
Y6B998070
Y6BZ98100
Y6C598010
Y6C898010
Y6CT98010
Y6CX98120
Y6GA98010
Y6GP98010
Y6GP98020
Y6GT98010
Y6JA98010
Y6K298010
Y6C598020
Y6CU98020
Y6KD98020
Y6KD98010
Y6BD61000
Y6CX64000
Y6BD13000
Y6CX19000
Y6JB98060
Y13003000
Y13003100
Y6BD74000
Y6BD60000
Y6CX10010
Y6JA0L010
Y6BD12000
Y6BD17000
Y6CX10000
Y6JA0L000

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

In news:[email hidden],
Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

If you've got pots of money to
spend the new SRAM groupsets are worth a look because they genuinely
are really nice, but Rival is between Centaur and Chorus in price
while Force is up there with Record.

But some genius decided to make the derailleurs incompatible with SRAM's
existing MTB kit. So if you want to use them with twist-grip shifters, you
can't. Nice one, Centurion.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Ha ha, you fool! You've fallen victim to one of the classic
blunders! The most famous is "Never get involved in a land war
in Asia"