Groupsets and prices

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need an
update?

That's the point. You can easily get all the parts for Campag. You can't
get many of the parts for Shimano - at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The difference is you phone the nice man at Parkers and every last screw
and spring from everything Campag has made in the past ten years -
probably longer - is available by next day's post at reasonable price.
If you want bits to fix a Shimano STI lever or derailleur, you can
whistle - they aren't available at all.

Given the list of available spares for brakes or rear derailleurs I'm
getting more and more concerned about those dictionaries 😉:

Who holds comprehensive stock of these parts, in Europe?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; All in all you're just another hick in the mall
-- Drink C'lloid

Dave Larrington said:

But some genius decided to make the derailleurs incompatible with SRAM's
existing MTB kit. So if you want to use them with twist-grip shifters, you
can't. Nice one, Centurion.

Seems an appropriate choice given that Red ranges (Rival & Force) are
road components.

--
Membrane

In news:[email hidden],
Membrane <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Dave Larrington said:

But some genius decided to make the derailleurs incompatible with
SRAM's existing MTB kit. So if you want to use them with twist-grip
shifters, you can't. Nice one, Centurion.

Seems an appropriate choice given that Red ranges (Rival & Force) are
road components.

Not everyone who wants to use road components wants to, or indeed can, use
drop bars. Or might want to mix and match parts from both sets. If Shimano
can do it, why can't SRAM?

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Maffeo Barberini (1568-1644) was made entirely of salmon.

M-gineering said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find and
mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need an
update?

Quoted message said:

The difference is you phone the nice man at Parkers and every last screw
and spring from everything Campag has made in the past ten years -
probably longer - is available by next day's post at reasonable price. If
you want bits to fix a Shimano STI lever or derailleur, you can whistle -
they aren't available at all.

Given the list of available spares for brakes or rear derailleurs I'm
getting more and more concerned about those dictionaries 😉:
Y5VB34000

<Delete 10 million part numbers>

Here's my sledgehammer, now where's that nut? ;-)

--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

Simon Brooke said:

Seriously, and religion apart, I do think you get substantially better
value for money from Campag than from Shimano.

Noisy though, isn't it?

My Horizon's freewheel was just about silent. I've heard some racing
bike that sound as though someone has stuck a card in the spokes.

Daniele

In article <1i65hkt.64bhbc11otl7oN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-
juice.co.uk>, D.M. Procida
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

That says: "24 speed Shimano Alivio with STI shifters".

I got on with it just fine. I mostly stayed in the middle chainring, and
made use of most of the cassette. I did occasionally shift for another
gear only to find that the next sprocket was too far in the other
direction, so perhaps that suggests they should have been closer
together

As you mostly stay on the middle ring an easy solution is to fit a
closer ratio cassette - maybe 12-23 instead of the 11-30 that seems to
be the most common with Alivio. That gives you nice close ratios, at
the cost of more shifting to the other rings and a 23% higher bottom
gear.

Brian G said:

Here's my sledgehammer, now where's that nut? ;-)

Nuts? If you've got a hammer, you're supposed to see nails everywhere 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Dave Larrington said:

Quoted message said:

Seems an appropriate choice given that Red ranges (Rival & Force) are
road components.

Not everyone who wants to use road components wants to, or indeed can, use
drop bars.

Force are top end components with matching price, not likely that anyone
would want to use it with a flatbar. Force comfortably beats DuraAce
specs, you don't see many flatbar bikes with DuraAce.

I'm not sure where to position the Rival set price and spec wise with
regard to the competition, but afaics it too would be an unlikely choice
for flatbar bikes.

--
Membrane

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

Given the list of available spares for brakes or rear derailleurs I'm
getting more and more concerned about those dictionaries 😉:

Who holds comprehensive stock of these parts, in Europe?

The Shimano distributor. You look it up in the stocklist, email away and
sorted.

Now Campa is a different kettle of fish. There are three of four
wholesalers here who /might/ have some Campybits, but no spares. The
tiniest wholesaler is probably your best bet, but she only answers the
phone 3 days of the week. For spares there is a semi-retired guy called
'Campagnolo Service', who might have the parts, but he doesn't sell to
the trade directly..

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

In news:[email hidden],
Membrane <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Force are top end components with matching price, not likely that
anyone would want to use it with a flatbar. Force comfortably beats
DuraAce specs, you don't see many flatbar bikes with DuraAce.

I'm not sure where to position the Rival set price and spec wise with
regard to the competition, but afaics it too would be an unlikely
choice for flatbar bikes.

Rival: 95 quid from Wiggle
Ultegra double: 85 quid from Wiggle

Should I need to - which, given the distance the thing covers, is admittedly
unlikely - I might have considered replacing some, or more, of the Ultegra
bits on my race recumbent with one or t'other of these, but I can't coz they
won't work with grip shifts. I am completely at a loss to understand why,
when their own-brand MTB stuff works so well, they didn't make the road
stuff compatible with it? I doubt it wouldn't have cost them anything.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left.

Dave Larrington said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure where to position the Rival set price and spec wise with
regard to the competition, but afaics it too would be an unlikely
choice for flatbar bikes.

Rival: 95 quid from Wiggle
Ultegra double: 85 quid from Wiggle

Should I need to - which, given the distance the thing covers, is admittedly
unlikely - I might have considered replacing some, or more, of the Ultegra
bits on my race recumbent with one or t'other of these, but I can't coz they
won't work with grip shifts.

Fair enough, but afaics your wish to use it in that manner is an
unlikely example.

Quoted message said:

I am completely at a loss to understand why,
when their own-brand MTB stuff works so well, they didn't make the road
stuff compatible with it? I doubt it wouldn't have cost them anything.

I don't know anything about compatibility, perhaps it has something to
do with this:

"Both derailleurs get "SRAM Exact Actuation," which is not quite the
one-to-one actuation ratio of SRAM mountain derailleurs, so Force and
Rival shifters are not compatible with SRAM X.0 rear derailleurs. SRAM
believes that the precise action of its derailleurs benefit from the
lower cable tension and longer cable pull provided by its actuation
ratio, which is around half that of its competitors."

Source: http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9723.0.html

--
Membrane

M-gineering said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find
and mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need
an update?

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers. Whether or
not that's true, I think it's worth emphasising that lots of Campag spares
are easy to obtain and it's easy to keep a Campag-equipped bike running for
many years.

~PB

D.M. Procida said:

Simon Brooke said:

Seriously, and religion apart, I do think you get substantially
better value for money from Campag than from Shimano.

Noisy though, isn't it?

My Horizon's freewheel was just about silent. I've heard some racing
bike that sound as though someone has stuck a card in the spokes.

That's how bikes are supposed to sound! :-)

Campag uses a nice strong chunky freewheel mechanism - that's easy to get
at, as well.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

M-gineering said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

> Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find
> and mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need
an update?

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers. Whether
or not that's true, I think it's worth emphasising that lots of Campag
spares are easy to obtain and it's easy to keep a Campag-equipped bike
running for many years.

OTOH if I bust eg a derailleur (*), I can get a shimano spare from my
nearest bike shop, whereas the campag one probably means mail order for me.

Despite that, I've got campag on my solo bike (well, ergos, rear hub and
rear mech) because I wanted ergos rather than STI. PITA when the hub died
(bust flange) - nearest place with one in stock was a 75 mile round trip,
which since I wanted to be no more than a day without the bike meant taking
the car. I could have got shimano within walking distance (now a 30 mile
round trip :-( ).

cheers,
clive

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

D.M. Procida said:

Simon Brooke said:

Seriously, and religion apart, I do think you get substantially
better value for money from Campag than from Shimano.

Noisy though, isn't it?

My Horizon's freewheel was just about silent. I've heard some racing
bike that sound as though someone has stuck a card in the spokes.

That's how bikes are supposed to sound! :-)

Indeed - it's a reminder that you're slacking off :-)

cheers,
clive

In article said:

OTOH if I bust eg a derailleur (*), I can get a shimano spare from my
nearest bike shop, whereas the campag one probably means mail order for me.
Despite that, I've got campag on my solo bike (well, ergos, rear hub and
rear mech) because I wanted ergos rather than STI. PITA when the hub died

Compromise on Ergo shifters with Shimano derailleur and hub?
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946#Shimergo
http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

Pete Biggs said:

M-gineering said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

> Campagnolo Veloce is OK too, but spares are more difficult to find
> and mixing with MTB parts is difficult

You're the second poster taking offense at this. According to my
dictionaries 'more difficult' is not equal to 'impossible'. Do I need
an update?

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers.

Good thing IMHO if spares availability on the spot has a high priority,
not every user is in love with Campa, they might just want some wheels
to ride.

Quoted message said:

Whether or
not that's true, I think it's worth emphasising that lots of Campag spares
are easy to obtain and it's easy to keep a Campag-equipped bike running for
many years.

But perhaps easier if it is the beautifull and indestructable stuff of
40 years ago rather than 10 😉

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

M-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers.

Good thing IMHO if spares availability on the spot has a high
priority,
not every user is in love with Campa, they might just want
some wheels to ride.

When it comes to Campag gears and brakes, it's generally not the kind of
stuff that fails (if it ever does) in a way that suddenly leaves the bike
unrideable. You can usually carry on riding while you order your parts.
Many cyclists will be able to DIY, others can take the part and bike to a
bike shop to have it fitted, if the shop doesn't order it for them. So this
worry about spares is virtually a non-issue, IMHO.

I don't want people putting off buying Campag. As a user myself, I have an
interest in the company remaining successful so I can carry on getting
spares :-)

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Dave Larrington

(') said:

In news:[email hidden],
Membrane <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Force are top end components with matching price, not likely that
anyone would want to use it with a flatbar. Force comfortably beats
DuraAce specs, you don't see many flatbar bikes with DuraAce.

I'm not sure where to position the Rival set price and spec wise with
regard to the competition, but afaics it too would be an unlikely
choice for flatbar bikes.

Rival: 95 quid from Wiggle
Ultegra double: 85 quid from Wiggle

Should I need to - which, given the distance the thing covers, is
admittedly unlikely - I might have considered replacing some, or more, of
the Ultegra bits on my race recumbent with one or t'other of these, but I
can't coz they
won't work with grip shifts. I am completely at a loss to understand
why, when their own-brand MTB stuff works so well, they didn't make the
road
stuff compatible with it? I doubt it wouldn't have cost them anything.

However, the top of the range MTB derailleur, the X0, is available in short
cage - Steve Pete uses it on his downhill bike, for example. There's not a
lot of difference between a short-cage mountain bike derailleur and a road
derailleur, and the X0 is a seriously nice piece of kit.
http://www.fisheroutdoor.co.uk/public/index.php/product/gears_sram_shifting_drivetrain/gears_sram_shifting_drivetrain_2007/sramgearsesprearderailleur/RDPX0S.html

And I can understand why they're not compatible. There isn't room in the
double-tap lever housing for a take-up spool as large diameter as on a
gripshift.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I can't work yanks out......
;; Why do they frown upon sex yet relish violence?
;; Deep Fried Lettuce

Pete Biggs said:

I don't want people putting off buying Campag. As a user myself, I have an
interest in the company remaining successful so I can carry on getting
spares :-)

nasty dish on the rearhub, cartridgebearings, nasty proprietary
boltcircle, silly bottombracket bearings like the competition *), silly
front shifting just like Shimano, chains which need 4 **)pages of step
by step instruction.... and you only put up with it because you couldn't
afford the stuff 40 years ago with only pocketmoney but were hopelessly
in love 😉

*)Ok, unlike big S they avoided some of the worst mistakes
**) after a while my eyes go blurry and I stop counting
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl