Groupsets and prices

M-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

I don't want people putting off buying Campag. As a user myself, I
have an interest in the company remaining successful so I can carry
on getting spares :-)

nasty dish on the rearhub,

Not a problem in practice.

Quoted message said:

cartridge bearings,

I'm glad my BBs have them. You have the choice with hubs.

Quoted message said:

nasty proprietary boltcircle,

Lovely compatible TA rings.

Quoted message said:

silly bottombracket bearings like the competition *),
silly front shifting just like Shimano, chains which need 4 **)pages
of step by step instruction....

Being a (little) bit behind the times (and a fan of triples), I don't have
UltraTorque or QS. But apparently it's OK.

Quoted message said:

and you only put up with it because
you couldn't afford the stuff 40 years ago with only pocketmoney but
were hopelessly in love 😉

Personally I got into Campag only because a particular bike I wanted
happened to have it, then caried on because it's good value, and certain
components like the shifters are actually much cheaper than $himano's.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

M-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers.

Good thing IMHO if spares availability on the spot has a high
priority,
not every user is in love with Campa, they might just want
some wheels to ride.

When it comes to Campag gears and brakes, it's generally not the kind of
stuff that fails (if it ever does) in a way that suddenly leaves the bike
unrideable. You can usually carry on riding while you order your parts.

It is quite annoying that few LBSes seem to carry Campag gear cables.
Twice I've ended up filing down the wire-heads on Shimano ones.

Ben C said:

It is quite annoying that few LBSes seem to carry Campag gear cables.
Twice I've ended up filing down the wire-heads on Shimano ones.

Funny thing is the classic stuff takes standard sized gearcables. So
somewhere down the line they decided to come up with their own standard,
presumably in an attempt to force the customer to buy campa specific
spares, just as they do with funny 135, 122 (? victory) and 110mm
boltcircles. An own goal IMHO, as they have so little market presence it
just turns into an argument against initial purchase.
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

"M-gineering" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Funny thing is the classic stuff takes standard sized gearcables. So
somewhere down the line they decided to come up with their own standard,
presumably in an attempt to force the customer to buy campa specific
spares, just as they do with funny 135, 122 (? victory) and 110mm
boltcircles. An own goal IMHO, as they have so little market presence it
just turns into an argument against initial purchase.

Dunno about the others, but 110mm boltcircle as funny? It's one of the
normal ones, isn't it? (well, most of our cranks are)

cheers,
clive

Going back to the op, and the list of Shimano road groupsets in order
of price, it is clear that the the more you pay, in general the
lighter and nicer is the product. However, this discussion has not
clarified which tends to be more or less durable. My experience
sugggests that bottom end stuff doesn't last very long, and I have
seen somewhere that Dura Ace is drilled out Ultegra (or at least, some
of the components are) which would suggest Ultegra would last longer
than Dura Ace.

However, I think it would be valuable to know the relative longevity
of these various items, and I would've thought it'd be useful to the
majority of the users of this ng as they are recreational cyclists.

Is there any information available to provide evidence as to which are
the longer lasting components?

raisethe said:

My experience
sugggests that bottom end stuff doesn't last very long

My experience is that gear from the big three (Shim./Camp./SRam) is both
reliable and long lasting including entry level line gear. For me,
bottom end is non brand gear that you can find on BSO's, that stuff
might not last.

Quoted message said:

and I have
seen somewhere that Dura Ace is drilled out Ultegra (or at least, some
of the components are) which would suggest Ultegra would last longer
than Dura Ace.

Light weight components might be more vulnerable to damage resulting
from abuse, this is to be expected when pushing weight limits.

Quoted message said:

However, I think it would be valuable to know the relative longevity
of these various items, and I would've thought it'd be useful to the
majority of the users of this ng as they are recreational cyclists.

IMO there is little reason to spend more on higher spec group components
if durability is your concern. The people who argue against entry level
components on grounds of reliability or durability often have no actual
experience with it, plus there is a lot of snobbery with regard to
components.

--
Membrane

M-gineering said:

Ben C said:

It is quite annoying that few LBSes seem to carry Campag gear cables.
Twice I've ended up filing down the wire-heads on Shimano ones.

Funny thing is the classic stuff takes standard sized gearcables. So
somewhere down the line they decided to come up with their own
standard, presumably in an attempt to force the customer to buy campa
specific spares, just as they do with funny 135, 122 (? victory) and
110mm boltcircles. An own goal IMHO, as they have so little market
presence it just turns into an argument against initial purchase.

That Campag use different BCDs and cables from Shimano is the weakest
argument for not buying Campag that I've ever heard.

Just keep a couple of spare cables at home, and make sure the ones on the
bike are in good condition so they don't bust in the middle of a ride. As
for 135mm rings: plenty are available, in many sizes.

Fair enough if you don't like the shape of the levers, etc, or you're a fan
of Shimano stuff already, but to avoid Campag because you're woried about
getting spares would be a sad mistake, I think.

~PB

Clive George said:

"M-gineering" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Funny thing is the classic stuff takes standard sized gearcables. So
somewhere down the line they decided to come up with their own
standard, presumably in an attempt to force the customer to buy campa
specific spares, just as they do with funny 135, 122 (? victory) and
110mm boltcircles. An own goal IMHO, as they have so little market
presence it just turns into an argument against initial purchase.

Dunno about the others, but 110mm boltcircle as funny? It's one of the
normal ones, isn't it? (well, most of our cranks are)

cheers,
clive

It would be, but as Campa hides a bolt behind the crank you have to fit
special Campa versions with the right thickness and one hole countersunk
from the other side. TA does 4 sizes for Campa, and anything from 36 to
61 for everybody else

To quote Sheldon Brown, 'standards are lovely, there are so many to
choose from'
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

in message <[email hidden]>, Membrane

(') said:

alan@darkroom.+.com (A.Lee) said:

It is all down to weight and longevity.
The cheaper they are, the heavier, and poorly made they are (mostly -
there are a few exceptions).

I'd say the opposite is more likely to be true. At the top end it is
all about minuscule performance advantages, durability is not relevant
to the target group: the pro's. Pro's don't give a mickey for how long
something lasts, they usually get their gear for free.

There are specific cases where this is true. Shimano XTR titanium cassettes
used to be notoriously prone to bending or even crumpling when shifting
under load. However, on the whole, durability is something that matters
more to the pros than to most of us. Only a few of the top names get
unlimited free kit; and they cycle a lot more miles than the rest of us.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Anagram: I'm soon broke.

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

M-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers.

Good thing IMHO if spares availability on the spot has a high
priority,
not every user is in love with Campa, they might just want
some wheels to ride.

When it comes to Campag gears and brakes, it's generally not the kind of
stuff that fails (if it ever does) in a way that suddenly leaves the bike
unrideable. You can usually carry on riding while you order your parts.
Many cyclists will be able to DIY, others can take the part and bike to a
bike shop to have it fitted, if the shop doesn't order it for them. So
this worry about spares is virtually a non-issue, IMHO.

However, if you do need to take it to a shop, the cost of labour may mean
it's more economical to replace the whole unit (whatever it is) than to
strip it down and replace fiddly little bits inside. That's presumably the
rationale behind the Shimano spares policy - if the shop strips the item
down and repairs it, the added value is mostly in labour, and the shop
gets the profit. If the shop simply replaces the unit, the added value is
mainly in parts and Shimano get the profit - and the bill to the customer
is not that different.

Campag listing (and stocking) every last little spring is just another
example of old-fashioned quality engineering, of a company still run by
engineers and not by accountants.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

M-gineering said:

Ben C said:

It is quite annoying that few LBSes seem to carry Campag gear cables.
Twice I've ended up filing down the wire-heads on Shimano ones.

Funny thing is the classic stuff takes standard sized gearcables. So
somewhere down the line they decided to come up with their own
standard, presumably in an attempt to force the customer to buy campa
specific spares, just as they do with funny 135, 122 (? victory) and
110mm boltcircles. An own goal IMHO, as they have so little market
presence it just turns into an argument against initial purchase.

That Campag use different BCDs and cables from Shimano is the weakest
argument for not buying Campag that I've ever heard.

Indeed. Shimano change bolt circle diameter and bolting pattern every time
the accountants have a hair cut. Out in the shed I have Shimano MTB
chainsets with four different mutually incompatible bolt patterns. The
object is to force customers to replace a whole chainset (and with it, of
course, a new bottom bracket, because Shimano bottom bracket standards
change every time the accountants clean their teeth) when just one ring is
damaged.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Quoted message said:

silly bottombracket bearings like the competition *),
silly front shifting just like Shimano, chains which need 4 **)pages
of step by step instruction....

Being a (little) bit behind the times (and a fan of triples), I don't
have UltraTorque or QS.  But apparently it's OK.

I have one QS setup and one non-QS. The QS is definitely a retrograde step,
but it's not nearly as bad as the best Shimano can do. Still, it's worth
stocking up on spare non-QS ergolevers now, because the new ones are
clearly cheaper to make (and, to be fair, also lighter).

And for a fan of Shimano to complain about 'proprietary' Campag parts is a
joke. Shimano have brought out more proprietary, incompatible bits than
any other manufacturer ever. As to price, quality for quality, up and down
the range, Campag is cheaper on more or less everything. What Campag
doesn't do it produce anything comparable to Shimano's bottom end groups.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; this is not a .sig

Simon Brooke said:

Indeed. Shimano change bolt circle diameter and bolting pattern every time
the accountants have a hair cut. Out in the shed I have Shimano MTB
chainsets with four different mutually incompatible bolt patterns. The
object is to force customers to replace a whole chainset (and with it, of
course, a new bottom bracket, because Shimano bottom bracket standards
change every time the accountants clean their teeth) when just one ring is
damaged.

Sticking to road, Shimano started with 144 mm, which they had in common
with campa, suntour, TA, etc.. They now have 130mm as do loads of other
makers of cranksets except Campagnolo. Before you ask, yes the DA triple
is silly to the extreme.

Back to MTB: ignoring XTR (I never see customers with that much cash to
spare) there was 110mm (same as Campa when they did MTB), STX [censored], 5 x
94 & 4 x 104. All these standards are widely copied and sell in much
greater quantities than the offerings from Campagnolo.

I like Campa, own bikes with Campa, used to have demonstrators with
Campa but the average customer today is probably better off with Shimano
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

M-gineering said:

I like Campa, own bikes with Campa, used to have demonstrators with
Campa but the average customer today is probably better off with Shimano

<anti-shimano-rant-mode>
...and as a result the rest of us get shafted.

Shimanos approach to component engineering stinks to high heaven.
Their business and marketing approach has given them a position of
dominance within the industry, and they abuse it at the expense of
"customers" like me.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are delighted with
their Shimano gear but I really resent the direction they have moved
the bike industry in.
I'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that I'm, by inclination, a
touring and utility cyclist. I don't race and I don't do any real
offroading. I have a few campy bits on my bikes (hubs, typically) but
have shied away from their cost and race-orientated product lines in
the past. I am basically stuck in the 1980s because of compatibility
issues with more recent kit. I think it's deeply significant that
Dawes struggle to put an elegant component system together for their
touring bikes.

</anti-shimano-rant-mode>

Maybe I just havn't come across the right components, but I feel as
if I'm badly served by the bike industry at the moment and I'm not
happy about it. I don't feel that bikes have improved a great deal in
the last 20 years or so, and what few gains there have been have been
offset by increased maintenance hassle and reliability/durability
issues.

So, at the risk of revisiting a scene from Monty Python, I ask:

What has Shimano done for us?

Cheers,
W.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

M-gineering wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Saying it's more difficult could put off some potential buyers.

Almost everything in the Campag line is servicable, and (virtually)
all the spares are obtainable, which is great.
If you do your own work on your bike (as I'd guess, a majority of the
people in this group do), it's ideal.

In this neck of the woods though, go into almost any bike shop with a
problem on a Shimano equipped bike, they'll work away happily and
probably have any necessary spares on the shelves.
Do the same on a Campag equipped bike, even into the better shops, and
although they'll probably he OK with doing the work, the spares will
likely have to be ordered in.

This isn't anything to do with the relative merits or durability of
Campag v. Shimano, just that a Campag equipped bike is very much the
exception round here.

Quoted message said:

However, if you do need to take it to a shop, the cost of labour may mean
it's more economical to replace the whole unit (whatever it is) than to
strip it down and replace fiddly little bits inside. That's presumably the
rationale behind the Shimano spares policy - if the shop strips the item
down and repairs it, the added value is mostly in labour, and the shop
gets the profit. If the shop simply replaces the unit, the added value is
mainly in parts and Shimano get the profit - and the bill to the customer
is not that different.

I think you're spot on there, Simon.

Quoted message said:

Campag listing (and stocking) every last little spring is just another
example of old-fashioned quality engineering, of a company still run by
engineers and not by accountants.

It's the way the providers of all consumer goods should be.
Unfortunatly, almost none of them work to that model any more.
I think that people are less inclined to try and fix things anymore
anyway - it's normally easier/cheaper to buy a new whatever-it-is than
to phone round suppliers, search on the web etc.

regards,

bookieb

Quoted message said:

M-gineering said:

I like Campa, own bikes with Campa, used to have demonstrators with
Campa but the average customer today is probably better off with Shimano

<anti-shimano-rant-mode>
...and as a result the rest of us get shafted.

Shimanos approach to component engineering stinks to high heaven.
Their business and marketing approach has given them a position of
dominance within the industry, and they abuse it at the expense of
"customers" like me.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are delighted with
their Shimano gear but I really resent the direction they have moved
the bike industry in.
I'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that I'm, by inclination, a
touring and utility cyclist. I don't race and I don't do any real
offroading. I have a few campy bits on my bikes (hubs, typically) but
have shied away from their cost and race-orientated product lines in
the past. I am basically stuck in the 1980s because of compatibility
issues with more recent kit. I think it's deeply significant that
Dawes struggle to put an elegant component system together for their
touring bikes.

</anti-shimano-rant-mode>

Maybe I just havn't come across the right components, but I feel as
if I'm badly served by the bike industry at the moment and I'm not
happy about it. I don't feel that bikes have improved a great deal in
the last 20 years or so, and what few gains there have been have been
offset by increased maintenance hassle and reliability/durability
issues.

So, at the risk of revisiting a scene from Monty Python, I ask:

What has Shimano done for us?

The cassette hub is pretty good, but many tourist would be delighted if
they had stuck with UG cogs
SPD pedals are nice
Nowt wrong with UN 52 cartridge BB's
Not impressed with 9 speed shifters (10 sp seem to last a bit longer)
hollowtech2, bearingquality going downhill, aluminium freehubs,
prescribed chainwheelsizes, 11t with everything.....

and remember Campa doesn't go free either, eg they were first with 10
speeds 😉

But the current bike industry is locked in a race who can build the most
impressive and lightest kit. This is bought by average uninformed
consumers who are surprised when it fails. So they buy some new silly
kit and the story continues. Informed consumers who know exactly what
they want and which 'upgrades' to avoid like plaque are a minority
without buying power.

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Membrane said:

a...@darkroom.+.com (A.Lee) said:

It is all down to weight and longevity.
The cheaper they are, the heavier, and poorly made they are (mostly -
there are a few exceptions).

I'd say the opposite is more likely to be true. At the top end it is
all about minuscule performance advantages, durability is not relevant
to the target group: the pro's. Pro's don't give a mickey for how long
something lasts, they usually get their gear for free.

--
Membrane

For me, there's a happy spot somewhere in the middle.

As a series of wild generalisations:
The really cheap stuff tends to be heavy, and (in the Shimano ranges)
tends to use a lot a chromed steel, paint , unbushed pivots etc.
The middle of the range stuff is significantly better, and reasonably
light, without being too expensive.
The high end stuff is marginally lighter, slightly better
"quality" (generally not functionally better, but better finishes
etc), but a lot more expensive.

So on a road bike, I think that the best "quality"/price ratio is at
Tiagara/105 level.
That said, I've just bought a new bike built up with Ultegra, choosing
Ultegra over 105 as a treat to myself. No real reason functional
reason, except as bike jewellery.

IMO though, in general, the longevity and durability of almost any
bike component from Shimano or Campag has more to do with keeping it
clean, well serviced, lubricated and in good adjustment than with
anything inherent to the quality of the parts themselves.

bookieb

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So, at the risk of revisiting a scene from Monty Python, I ask:

What has Shimano done for us?

Biopace, Positron, those funny Dura-Ace pedals with single sided
bearings, the original cassette hubs that were only held together
(briefly) by bearing pressure, non-adjustable straddle wires, chains
with a single-use joining rivet, lots of expensive stuff that becomes
useless when a single small unobtainable bit fails, the demise of
Suntour ...

In news:[email hidden],
Rob Morley <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

So, at the risk of revisiting a scene from Monty Python, I ask:

What has Shimano done for us?

Biopace, Positron, those funny Dura-Ace pedals with single sided
bearings, the original cassette hubs that were only held together
(briefly) by bearing pressure, non-adjustable straddle wires, chains
with a single-use joining rivet, lots of expensive stuff that becomes
useless when a single small unobtainable bit fails, the demise of
Suntour ...

The 10mm pitch transmission...

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than for Gary Busey to pass through the eye of a camel.

in message <[email hidden]>, M-gineering

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

Given the list of available spares for brakes or rear derailleurs I'm
getting more and more concerned about those dictionaries 😉:

Who holds comprehensive stock of these parts, in Europe?

The Shimano distributor. You look it up in the stocklist, email away and
sorted.

Now Campa is a different kettle of fish. There are three of four
wholesalers here who /might/ have some Campybits, but no spares. The
tiniest wholesaler is probably your best bet, but she only answers the
phone 3 days of the week. For spares there is a semi-retired guy called
'Campagnolo Service', who might have the parts, but he doesn't sell to
the trade directly..

Rubbish.

Parker International will supply every last little bit, next day's post.
And they're easy to deal with - just phone up, and you get someone who
knows what they're talking about. I expect Chicken's would do the same,
but I've never known Parker's not to have the part.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; have mercy on the slender grass