Gallbladder surgery

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mark Probert-February 26, 2004" <Mark

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...
>
> "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
> >
> > He posted:
> > I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> medicine
> > is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable

assumptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> until I
> > am proven wrong.
>
>
> This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.
>
> If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
> are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
> assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
> to them either.

I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do reserve

the

Quoted message said:

right to point out error when people post statements that contradict our
current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and

citrus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng "strengthens

the

Quoted message said:

immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to be
untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
believing such nonsense.

--Rich

Prove it wrong then .

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

Indeed. One wonders if many of the advocates of flushes who claim
they're so great ever actually had gallstones at all. What is needed to
show that flushes work is a set of before-and-after ultrasounds of the
gallbladder, one done before the flushes and one done after the flushes.
If the number of stones hasn't decreased by this objective measure, then
there is no evidence that the flushes did anything at all for the
gallstones.

My guess is that many of these people using flushes never actually had
gallstones in the first place. They just experience a little upper
abdominal pain after eating a couple of times and self-diagnose
themselves (either that or they run to an altie practitioner who tells
them they have gallstones and need a liver/gallbladder flush).

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 26, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...
> >
> > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
> > >
> > > He posted:
> > > I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all

alternative

Quoted message said:

> > medicine
> > > is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable

assumptions

Quoted message said:

> > until I
> > > am proven wrong.
> >
> >
> > This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of

course.

Quoted message said:

> > No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.
> >
> > If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
> > are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
> > assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
> > to them either.
>
> I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do

reserve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> right to point out error when people post statements that contradict

our

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and

citrus

Quoted message said:

> juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng

"strengthens

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
> believing such nonsense.
>
> --Rich

Prove it wrong then .

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I know
personaly .

Which is not any evidence that the flushes did anything for gallbladder
disease.

Quoted message said:

Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove anything to
you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from personal
experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

Your personal experience says nothing about whether gallbladder
"flushes" work or not, unless you can show that you even had gallstones
in the first place and that they disappeared or decreased in number
after the flushes.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 26, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > "Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...
> > > >
> > > > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
> > > > >
> > > > > He posted:
> > > > > I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all
> alternative
> > > > medicine
> > > > > is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable
> assumptions
> > > > until I
> > > > > am proven wrong.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of
> course.
> > > > No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.
> > > >
> > > > If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
> > > > are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
> > > > assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
> > > > to them either.
> > >
> > > I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do
reserve
> > the
> > > right to point out error when people post statements that

contradict

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

our
> > > current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> citrus
> > > juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng
"strengthens
> > the
> > > immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be
> > > untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored"

for

Quoted message said:

> > > believing such nonsense.
> > >
> > > --Rich
> >
> >
> > Prove it wrong then .
>
> Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder

has

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
> recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
> ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone?

If

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in

eliminating

Quoted message said:

> them.

I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I know
personaly . Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove anything

to

Quoted message said:

you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from

personal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

Sorry, sweetums, but your personal experience proves NOTHING unless you

can

Quoted message said:

show that there were stones prior to the flush, and there were no stones
after the flush. The only way to do this, absent surgery, is to use
ultrasound.

As for twisting around, the usenet standard, execept in AltWorld is to

have

Quoted message said:

the propenent of some point, etc. provide the proof.

Thus, either prove it..or....your claims are worth what a flush

produces....

Exactly my point sweetums , you prove to me that it didn't work ,
otherwise your claims have the value of a needlessly removed gallbladder .

Logical fallacy used yet again: inappropriately shifting the burden of
proof.

See also:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

Sorry. But the burden of proof is on you, not Mark.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Mark Probert-February 26, 2004" <Mark

[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > >
> > > "Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > >
> > > > "Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He posted:
> > > > > > I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all
> > alternative
> > > > > medicine
> > > > > > is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable
> > assumptions
> > > > > until I
> > > > > > am proven wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions,

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > course.
> > > > > No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.
> > > > >
> > > > > If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
> > > > > are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and

reasonable

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
> > > > > to them either.
> > > >
> > > > I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do
> reserve
> > > the
> > > > right to point out error when people post statements that

contradict

Quoted message said:

> our
> > > > current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil

and

Quoted message said:

> > citrus
> > > > juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng
> "strengthens
> > > the
> > > > immune system" will be challenged, because these things are

known

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

> be
> > > > untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be

"honored"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for
> > > > believing such nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > --Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > Prove it wrong then .
> >
> > Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder

has

Quoted message said:

> > fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your

doctor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by

pre-flush

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone?

If

Quoted message said:

> > not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in
eliminating
> > them.
>
> I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I

know

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> personaly . Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove

anything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to
> you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from

personal

Quoted message said:

> experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

Sorry, sweetums, but your personal experience proves NOTHING unless you

can

Quoted message said:

show that there were stones prior to the flush, and there were no stones
after the flush. The only way to do this, absent surgery, is to use
ultrasound.

As for twisting around, the usenet standard, execept in AltWorld is to

have

Quoted message said:

the propenent of some point, etc. provide the proof.

Thus, either prove it..or....your claims are worth what a flush

produces....

::: Exactly my point sweetums , you prove to me that it didn't work ,
otherwise your claims have the value of a needlessly removed gallbladder .

Thank you for your non-answer which provides proof that you have no proof
that it actually removed gall stones.

Indeed. It's absolutely hysterical to watch this guy's transparent
attempt to avoid backing up his assertions with evidence by trying to
shift the burden of proof back to the person who is voicing skepticism
of his claims.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

Quoted message said:

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is stop repeating the Marked pervert's trolls or most

here

Quoted message said:

will put ***YOU*** on ignore and you will be talking to yourself. Add up
your IQ points with the Pervert's and you will have one more point between
you.

Gymmy was braincleansed by AltMed.

Are you sure he ever actually had a brain to be cleansed?

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

My gallstones were removed using olive oil and grapefruit juice flushes .
You prove me wrong sweetie.

LOL! You're even denser than I thought. You can't even prove you ever
had gallstones to begin with.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My gallstones were removed using olive oil and grapefruit juice flushes

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You prove me wrong sweetie.

I came from Mars. I am building a thermonuclear device in my kitchen. I

can

Quoted message said:

see inside your gallbladder using psychic remote viewing.

My claims are just as believable as yours; you prove ME wrong.

--Rich

Why sweetpea brain , you miss the point . I don't have to prove anything to
you .

Then you should have no expectation that anyone will believe your claims
if you are so lame that you can't even back them up with objective
evidence.

Quoted message said:

You are the one who jumped in with your little opinionated point of view .
Just what part of , "it worked for me and others I know " don't you
understand ?

What part of "Your anecdotes mean nothing if you can't prove you had
gallstone disease in the first place" don't YOU understand?

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Perhaps badly worded. I meant yours plus one.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good point and I have taken it . My ignore list is now in operation as I

see

Quoted message said:

these trolls are not interested in the reality . However , lets not be too
hasty , judgemental or superior re the IQ points shall we ?

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is stop repeating the Marked pervert's trolls or most

here

Quoted message said:

will put ***YOU*** on ignore and you will be talking to yourself. Add

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your IQ points with the Pervert's and you will have one more point

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

In article said:

Good point and I have taken it . My ignore list is now in operation as I see
these trolls are not interested in the reality . However , lets not be too
hasty , judgemental or superior re the IQ points shall we ?

Given your obviously low IQ, I'd say that's a wise precaution on your
part.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 2/27/2004 9:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article said:

Good point and I have taken it . My ignore list is now in operation as I see
these trolls are not interested in the reality . However , lets not be too
hasty , judgemental or superior re the IQ points shall we ?

Given your obviously low IQ, I'd say that's a wise precaution on your
part.

-- David Wright :

Time for that keeper.

When you start whining about personalities,don't be surprised that it generates
comments about your own.

David Wright

That's OK , I misunderstood your meaning . You are correct , ignore is the
best way and the one that really gets up their noses .
Bew

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps badly worded. I meant yours plus one.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good point and I have taken it . My ignore list is now in operation as I

see

Quoted message said:

these trolls are not interested in the reality . However , lets not be

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hasty , judgemental or superior re the IQ points shall we ?

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is stop repeating the Marked pervert's trolls or most

here

Quoted message said:

will put ***YOU*** on ignore and you will be talking to yourself. Add

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your IQ points with the Pervert's and you will have one more point

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

Bew' qw@nonamewhatsover said:

Quoted message said:

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I know
personaly . Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove anything to
you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from personal
experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

That old saw "personal experience" .

Without objective evidence, your 'experience'
isn't worth a plugged nickel.

My 5¢,

--

Take out the G'RBAGE to reply
[email hidden]

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

Quoted message said:

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is stop repeating the Marked pervert's trolls or most

here

Quoted message said:

will put ***YOU*** on ignore and you will be talking to yourself. Add

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your IQ points with the Pervert's and you will have one more point

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you.

Gymmy was braincleansed by AltMed.

Are you sure he ever actually had a brain to be cleansed?

Damn. you caught my logical fallacy...

IOW, folks, Bew cannot stand the idea that I asked s/h/it a few direct
questions which s/h/it did not have the naswers for.

Another nutso altie exposed.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good point and I have taken it . My ignore list is now in operation as I

see

Quoted message said:

these trolls are not interested in the reality . However , lets not be too
hasty , judgemental or superior re the IQ points shall we ?

"Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is stop repeating the Marked pervert's trolls or most

here

Quoted message said:

will put ***YOU*** on ignore and you will be talking to yourself. Add

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your IQ points with the Pervert's and you will have one more point

between

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark

[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (kevinf) wrote:

> I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am
> keen to explore alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing" the
> stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what were the
> results?

They don't work. Conventional medicine gave up on various approaches to
try to "dissolve" or "flush" gallstones many years ago, because they
just don't work. In fact, "flushing" the stones out of the gallbladder
would likely not be a good thing in the absence of a means of removing
them from the biliary tree or somehow dissolving them completely.
Serious sequelae of gallstones finding their way out of the gallbladder
and into the common bile duct include cholangitis, jaundice, or even
gallstone pancreatitis. (In fact, these are some of the potential
complications of gallstone disease that prevented by cholecystectomy.)
Indeed, it's probably good that "alt meds" can't "flush" the gallstones
out, as it would certainly result in some serious complications and even
some deaths.

It all sounds reasonable, but you need to be familiar
with altmed claims before refuting them...

E.g., one altmed claim is that "Gold Coin Grass" can
"crush" the stones, prior to flushing them out.
So an objection based on size is not valid
without more of an explanation.

Unless it dissolves them or "crushes" them into VERY tiny particles, it
won't work. That's one of the reasons shock wave lithotripsy fell out of
favor for gallstone disease, particularly since it had difficulty
dealing with many stones, as are frequently found in cholelithiasis.

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
harmful?

Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
gallstones are effective.

I absolutely agree that you are entitled to this
opinion, just as I am entitled to the opinion that you
can't understand true logic, and are unable
to understand even the fundamentals, such
as what does "unknown" truly mean, or even the
actual significance of a clinical trial as a
scientific process.

Even if the flushing or other methods work (I agree to the idea and have
performed them myself) a sick gallbladder will continue to create this
problem. No known method of "curing" it has been found. Stone removal has
been performed in chem/cut medicine but the problem continually gets
recreated.

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] (kevinf) wrote:
>
> > I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am
> > keen to explore alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what were

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > results?
>
> They don't work. Conventional medicine gave up on various approaches

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> try to "dissolve" or "flush" gallstones many years ago, because they
> just don't work. In fact, "flushing" the stones out of the

gallbladder

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> would likely not be a good thing in the absence of a means of

removing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> them from the biliary tree or somehow dissolving them completely.
> Serious sequelae of gallstones finding their way out of the

gallbladder

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and into the common bile duct include cholangitis, jaundice, or even
> gallstone pancreatitis. (In fact, these are some of the potential
> complications of gallstone disease that prevented by

cholecystectomy.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Indeed, it's probably good that "alt meds" can't "flush" the

gallstones

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> out, as it would certainly result in some serious complications and

even

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> some deaths.

It all sounds reasonable, but you need to be familiar
with altmed claims before refuting them...

E.g., one altmed claim is that "Gold Coin Grass" can
"crush" the stones, prior to flushing them out.
So an objection based on size is not valid
without more of an explanation.

Unless it dissolves them or "crushes" them into VERY tiny particles, it
won't work. That's one of the reasons shock wave lithotripsy fell out of
favor for gallstone disease, particularly since it had difficulty
dealing with many stones, as are frequently found in cholelithiasis.

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
harmful?

Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
gallstones are effective.

I absolutely agree that you are entitled to this
opinion, just as I am entitled to the opinion that you
can't understand true logic, and are unable
to understand even the fundamentals, such
as what does "unknown" truly mean, or even the
actual significance of a clinical trial as a
scientific process.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery
From: WB [email hidden]
Date: 2/28/2004 6:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Bew' qw@nonamewhatsover said:

Quoted message said:

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I know
personaly . Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove anything to
you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from personal
experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

That old saw "personal experience"

YES!!!

This is a discussion group. People have every right to tell of their own
experience.

Quoted message said:

Without objective evidence, your 'experience'
isn't worth a plugged nickel.

Wrong. From the charter.

Alternative approaches to health care are clearly of interest to many readers,
but there is currently no group in which general non-technical discussions
would be appropriate. Discussions do occur in "sci.med",but are generally
counter to that newsgroup's purpose, as readers there have noted.
******"sci.skeptic" is an appropriate newsgroup for scientific investigation of
alternative therapies, but not for general discussion.*******

Scientific proof or verificability of facts will *not* be required
in"misc.health.alternative",

Quoted message said:

My 5¢,

It is strange that anecdotes are worth a plugged nickel.

It appears most of the *gang* has one, which the *gang* members never question.

Double standards.

Jan

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (soft-eng) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
> that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
> altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
> harmful?

Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
gallstones are effective.

I absolutely agree that you are entitled to this opinion, just as I
am entitled to the opinion that you can't understand true logic, and
are unable to understand even the fundamentals, such as what does
"unknown" truly mean, or even the actual significance of a clinical
trial as a scientific process.

Wrong. I understand it FAR better than you do.

Because you say so?

Do you have ANY argument other than "I say so", which
should be rather worn out, because you have been using
it pretty much all the time?

1) In fact, you don't even understand the significance of
valid randomization in processes involving statistical computations,
much less how subjective the process of a good randomization
of samples can be. If you did, you would be making
absolutely NO absolutist statements. QED.

2) You have comprehension problems. Do you have
any clue what you are actually saying "Wrong" to? Did
you really mean to say you are NOT entitled to an opinion?
Or are you saying I am not entitled to an opinion.
[Hint: You needed to say my opinion is wrong. I
am 99.9% certain that's what you meant.]

Troll feeder, take the hook out of your mouth!

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] (soft-eng) wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
> > that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
> > altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
> > harmful?
>
> Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
> trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
> gallstones are effective.
>

I absolutely agree that you are entitled to this opinion, just as I
am entitled to the opinion that you can't understand true logic, and
are unable to understand even the fundamentals, such as what does
"unknown" truly mean, or even the actual significance of a clinical
trial as a scientific process.

Wrong. I understand it FAR better than you do.

Because you say so?

Do you have ANY argument other than "I say so", which
should be rather worn out, because you have been using
it pretty much all the time?

1) In fact, you don't even understand the significance of
valid randomization in processes involving statistical computations,
much less how subjective the process of a good randomization
of samples can be. If you did, you would be making
absolutely NO absolutist statements. QED.

2) You have comprehension problems. Do you have
any clue what you are actually saying "Wrong" to? Did
you really mean to say you are NOT entitled to an opinion?
Or are you saying I am not entitled to an opinion.
[Hint: You needed to say my opinion is wrong. I
am 99.9% certain that's what you meant.]

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] (soft-eng) wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
> > that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
> > altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
> > harmful?
>
> Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
> trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
> gallstones are effective.
>

I absolutely agree that you are entitled to this opinion, just as I
am entitled to the opinion that you can't understand true logic, and
are unable to understand even the fundamentals, such as what does
"unknown" truly mean, or even the actual significance of a clinical
trial as a scientific process.

Wrong. I understand it FAR better than you do.

Because you say so?

No, because it is true.

Quoted message said:

Do you have ANY argument other than "I say so", which
should be rather worn out, because you have been using
it pretty much all the time?

Yes, but very time I present evidence and randomized studies to bolster
my position alties ignore or dismiss them. They rarely, if ever, try to
discuss them or point out flaws in them. I've been posting negative
studies about chelation therapy and various other alt-med remedies for
months now. When GlowLife Dave was making all sorts of claims for
ginseng, I was the one who actually bothered to look up the data on
ginseng. Dave did not bother, nor did you.

So don't give me that [censored], because that's all it is--[censored].

Quoted message said:

1) In fact, you don't even understand the significance of
valid randomization in processes involving statistical computations,
much less how subjective the process of a good randomization
of samples can be. If you did, you would be making
absolutely NO absolutist statements. QED.

Oh, please, give me a freaking break. I've been *very* patient with you
up until now, but you've just managed to exhaust my patience with the
above statement. If we were to use YOUR criteria as implied above, then
no absolute statements would ever be possible--which is utterly
ridiculous. I could humor you and qualify every statement I make with
the tiniest possibility that something that we know doesn't work might
actually work, but that would be intellectually dishonest when evidence
is overwhelmingly against its working. I could say that it is "unknown"
that quackery like Hulda Clark's does what she claims it does, but,
given how much her claims go against what is presently known, how much
evidence there is that her hypotheses (I wouldn't dignify them by
calling them theories) are valid, and how little she bothers to try to
provide objective evidence for her claims, it would also be
intellectually dishonest to characterize the efficacy of her
"treatments" as "unknown."

Have you ever actually developed a clinical trial? Have you ever
actually done the statistics? Have you ever developed a randomization
scheme? Have you ever actually wrestled with the complexities of the
issues involved? Come back and talk to me about my supposed inability to
understand when you yourself have

Quoted message said:

2) You have comprehension problems. Do you have
any clue what you are actually saying "Wrong" to? Did
you really mean to say you are NOT entitled to an opinion?
Or are you saying I am not entitled to an opinion.

[Hint: You needed to say my opinion is wrong. I
am 99.9% certain that's what you meant.]

Now you've descended into nitpicking. Not a good sign for you, I'm
afraid.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"