Gallbladder surgery

Gallstones are one condition.
Inflammation of the Gallbladder is another.

Screwing around with home-remedy's rather than having a recommended surgery
can set you up for the fun of having both conditions at once. At which
time, you would gladly do surgery on yourself with a dull butter knife, to
get rid of the excruciating pain.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(soft-eng) said:

Orac <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(kevinf) said:

I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am
keen to explore alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing" the
stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what were the
results?

They don't work. Conventional medicine gave up on various approaches to
try to "dissolve" or "flush" gallstones many years ago, because they
just don't work. In fact, "flushing" the stones out of the gallbladder
would likely not be a good thing in the absence of a means of removing
them from the biliary tree or somehow dissolving them completely.
Serious sequelae of gallstones finding their way out of the gallbladder
and into the common bile duct include cholangitis, jaundice, or even
gallstone pancreatitis. (In fact, these are some of the potential
complications of gallstone disease that prevented by cholecystectomy.)
Indeed, it's probably good that "alt meds" can't "flush" the gallstones
out, as it would certainly result in some serious complications and even
some deaths.

It all sounds reasonable, but you need to be familiar
with altmed claims before refuting them...

E.g., one altmed claim is that "Gold Coin Grass" can
"crush" the stones, prior to flushing them out.
So an objection based on size is not valid
without more of an explanation.

Unless it dissolves them or "crushes" them into VERY tiny particles, it
won't work. That's one of the reasons shock wave lithotripsy fell out of
favor for gallstone disease, particularly since it had difficulty
dealing with many stones, as are frequently found in cholelithiasis.

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a clinical trial you can point to
that proves that this "Gold Coin Grass" or other
altmed remedies are ineffective? Or at least
harmful?

Wrong question. The correct question is whether there is a clinical
trial that shows Gold Coin Grass or other alt-med remedies for
gallstones are effective.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that some
people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own conclusions .
Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WB <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory
regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true,
to highlight the important points
The 'flushes' do nothing; except perhaps
postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:25:13 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My wife was diagnosed with gallstones and needed a gallbladder removal.

We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

did the flushes as prescribed by the Clark site and with great

perceived

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

success got many hundreds of stones out!

Let me tell you this as I was told by many doctors. Those are not

stones

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from your gallbladder! They are balls of fat possibly from your liver

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the congealed oils that you drink during the flush.

Right

Quoted message said:

Almost a year later (last December...yup two months ago) my wife

started

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

having gallbladder attacks. She had only had one a year before. To the
hospital and the only thing that stopped the pain was Demerol

injections. It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

happened again a few nights later and again a few nights after that.

Now if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you want to here about pain. She passed out from the pain a collapsed

on the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bed where I accessed and began AR because she was not breathing. We

booked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the operation.

The surgeon did the operation laproscopically but was five seconds from
splitting her wide open because her gallbladder was so hard and packed

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stones he couldn't get it out via the largest hole he cut. Thinking it

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cancerous he sent it off to pathology. It turned out to just be severe

scar

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tissue and we breathed a sigh of relief.

Good.

Quoted message said:

The surgeon offered us $500 if we could flush even one gallstone out.

He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

told us it cannot be done and I now believe him for most cases.

Right. Read the following statements closely.

Quoted message said:

I didn't while we did the flushes. We aggravated the situation to the

point of making

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6 hospital emergency visits in December. Now it is over as my wife is

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in her Pilates Classes and other exercises and almost up to full

endurance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

again at 50 YOA.

Expensive delay. Not just monetary, healthwise.

Quoted message said:

My advise to you is that if you can get a doctor to co-operate, and do

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ultrasound pictures at various stages then try the flushes. If they are
working....fantastic! If they are not get the operation done
laproscopically as soon as possible before complications can set in and
while it still can be done with a few one inch cuts(no muscle cuts)

Now here is the most important statement:
Reiterate, this is the most important statement:

Quoted message said:

If a stone gets caught in the bile duct tube, your liver, gall bladder

(just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pain) and your pancreas are in trouble and so are you.

Sequela follows,

Quoted message said:

You will be split
from side to side through all your abdominals and be unable to use them

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

half a year.

moral of the story: wait and you will suffer more.

Quoted message said:

Best of luck! My heart goes out to you.

"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am
> keen to explore alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing" the
> stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what were the
> results?

Just for the record, this is the only time that I have ever agreed
with GymmyB

WB

So basically, you believe in anecdote tellers only as long
as the anecdote is supporting what you are
saying, otherwise you choose to distrust them?

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that some
people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own conclusions

..

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting here...particularly
vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of olive
oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

Quoted message said:

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people will approach their problems the conventional way and others

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of

olive

Quoted message said:

oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

http://www.cocoonnutrition.org/catalog/page_liver_gallbladder.php
http://www.healingformula.net/program.htm
http://theherbfinder.com/products/kit_liver.html

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people will approach their problems the conventional way and others

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of

olive

Quoted message said:

oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

http://www.westernbotanicals.com/programsfrm.html

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people will approach their problems the conventional way and others

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of

olive

Quoted message said:

oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

Google has 27 pages of commercial sites selling gallbladder flush
concoctions.

They are replete with lines like "You save $18.75!" (final price, 57.50).

Yes, I know what a "gallbladder flush" is. I also know what it isn't...an
effective treatment for gall bladder disease.

--Rich

What ***you*** should realise is that my wife and I were two of the
thousands of successful flushes performed. My wife got a number of quite
impressive 35mm diameter "stones" out. Unfortunately they were not
gallstones. They were balls of fats apparently covered in a turquoise
substance stated as "byle" by the proponents of this.

I do believe in the value of these flushes. I felt so wonderful the first
time I did a flush for a few days I recommended it to many. The liver may be
capable of releasing these coloured balls of fat but the gallbladder cannot
or they would fall out by themselves.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that some
people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own conclusions

..

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WB <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is an almost exact description of my own wives' purgatory
regarding cholecystectomy.

Clipped some of GBs' story as it rings true,
to highlight the important points
The 'flushes' do nothing; except perhaps
postponing the inevitable needed surgery .

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:25:13 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>My wife was diagnosed with gallstones and needed a gallbladder

removal.

Quoted message said:

We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>did the flushes as prescribed by the Clark site and with great

perceived

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>success got many hundreds of stones out!
>
>Let me tell you this as I was told by many doctors. Those are not

stones

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>from your gallbladder! They are balls of fat possibly from your liver

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>from the congealed oils that you drink during the flush.

Right
>
>Almost a year later (last December...yup two months ago) my wife

started

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>having gallbladder attacks. She had only had one a year before. To

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>hospital and the only thing that stopped the pain was Demerol

injections. It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>happened again a few nights later and again a few nights after that.

Now if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>you want to here about pain. She passed out from the pain a collapsed

on the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>bed where I accessed and began AR because she was not breathing. We

booked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>the operation.
>
>The surgeon did the operation laproscopically but was five seconds

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>splitting her wide open because her gallbladder was so hard and

packed

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>stones he couldn't get it out via the largest hole he cut. Thinking

it

Quoted message said:

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>cancerous he sent it off to pathology. It turned out to just be

severe

Quoted message said:

scar

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>tissue and we breathed a sigh of relief.

Good.
>
>The surgeon offered us $500 if we could flush even one gallstone out.

He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>told us it cannot be done and I now believe him for most cases.

Right. Read the following statements closely.

> I didn't while we did the flushes. We aggravated the situation to

the

Quoted message said:

point of making

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>6 hospital emergency visits in December. Now it is over as my wife is

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>in her Pilates Classes and other exercises and almost up to full

endurance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>again at 50 YOA.
>

Expensive delay. Not just monetary, healthwise.

>My advise to you is that if you can get a doctor to co-operate, and

do

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Ultrasound pictures at various stages then try the flushes. If they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>working....fantastic! If they are not get the operation done
>laproscopically as soon as possible before complications can set in

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>while it still can be done with a few one inch cuts(no muscle cuts)

Now here is the most important statement:
Reiterate, this is the most important statement:

> If a stone gets caught in the bile duct tube, your liver, gall

bladder

Quoted message said:

(just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>pain) and your pancreas are in trouble and so are you.

Sequela follows,

>You will be split
>from side to side through all your abdominals and be unable to use

them

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>half a year.
>
moral of the story: wait and you will suffer more.

>
>Best of luck! My heart goes out to you.
>
>
>"kevinf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> I have been told that I need to have my gallbladder removed but am
>> keen to explore alternatives. I have seen methods for "flushing"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> stones. Has anyone any experience of this procedure and what were

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> results?
>

Just for the record, this is the only time that I have ever agreed
with GymmyB

WB

So basically, you believe in anecdote tellers only as long
as the anecdote is supporting what you are
saying, otherwise you choose to distrust them?

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Gallbladder surgery
From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover
Date: 2/26/2004 12:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of olive
oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.

He posted:

I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all alternative medicine
is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable assumptions until I
am proven wrong.

Jan

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.

He posted:
I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all alternative

medicine

Quoted message said:

is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable assumptions

until I

Quoted message said:

am proven wrong.

This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of course.
No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.

If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
to them either.

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results .

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some

Quoted message said:

> people will approach their problems the conventional way and others

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.
> Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder

flushes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of

olive

Quoted message said:

oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

Google has 27 pages of commercial sites selling gallbladder flush
concoctions.

They are replete with lines like "You save $18.75!" (final price, 57.50).

Yes, I know what a "gallbladder flush" is. I also know what it isn't...an
effective treatment for gall bladder disease.

--Rich

You are entitled to your opinion . The flush has worked well for me and
others I know personaly , the flush I did was recommended by my medical
doctor . Your blanket statement that they don't work is obviously wrong in
my case and in many others I personaly know of and obviously against is
against what my doctor believes .

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results .

Really? Who are these people, and what is the scientific evidence that
these flushes do any good?

Quoted message said:

It
matters not what the detractors say on the subject .

To you, perhaps not. To anyone with an understanding of medicine, it
does.

Quoted message said:

The fact is that some
people will approach their problems the conventional way and others will
choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own conclusions .
Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Indeed there are. There are many who post here in order to try to sell
some herbal remedy or altie treatment or other. They will make inflated
claims not supported by any evidence to try to sell their overpriced
wares.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rich Shewmaker said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> What you should realise is that there are thousands of people who have
> successfully done the gallbladder flush , with wonderful results . It
> matters not what the detractors say on the subject . The fact is that

some

Quoted message said:

> people will approach their problems the conventional way and others

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> choose alternative routes , check it out and come to your own

conclusions

Quoted message said:

.
> Remember that there are vested interests posting here constantly .

Yes, DO remember that there are vested interests posting

here...particularly

Quoted message said:

vested interests in profiting from such products as gallbladder flushes.

--Rich

Yes I know , there is a fortune to be made in a couple of cupfulls of

olive

Quoted message said:

oil and some grapefruit juice . Do you even know what one is ?

http://www.cocoonnutrition.org/catalog/page_liver_gallbladder.php
http://www.healingformula.net/program.htm
http://theherbfinder.com/products/kit_liver.html

Indeed. There are lots of altie companies trying to sell such hokum as
"gallbladder flushes."

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Gymmy Bob said:

What ***you*** should realise is that my wife and I were two of the
thousands of successful flushes performed. My wife got a number of quite
impressive 35mm diameter "stones" out. Unfortunately they were not
gallstones. They were balls of fats apparently covered in a turquoise
substance stated as "byle" by the proponents of this.

I realize that I'll never convince you of this, but the "colored balls
of fat" were probably nothing more than components of the gallbladder
flush coming out in your [censored].

What is the OBJECTIVE evidence that your wife got rid of these "35 mm
stones" out? Did she have an ultrasound before and after showing a
decrease in the number of gallstones IN THE GALLBLADDER after the
flushes? In the absence of objective evidence of this sort, I cannot
take your claim seriously, and these "balls of fat" were probably
nothing more than exactly that: balls of fat mixed in with your stool or
chunks of stool coated with fat. I highly doubt they were gallstones.
Gallstones generally do not "soften" that easily.

Quoted message said:

I do believe in the value of these flushes. I felt so wonderful the first
time I did a flush for a few days I recommended it to many. The liver may be
capable of releasing these coloured balls of fat but the gallbladder cannot
or they would fall out by themselves.

Of course, it's a lovely deal for those selling the flushes. Sell people
something that makes them have diarrhea and [censored] what looks like
"coloured balls of fat." Then convince them that the fat is actually
"softened" gallstones "coming out" and is thus evidence that their
gallbladder and liver are being "cleansed" by the flush. What a lovely,
brilliant scam!

AGAIN, unless you can show objective evidence that there was a decrease
in the number of gallstones IN THE GALLBLADDER after the flushes, you
have no evidence that the flushes did anything other than give you
diarrhea and make you [censored] little balls of fat.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know what a "gallbladder flush" is. I also know what it isn't...an
effective treatment for gall bladder disease.

--Rich

You are entitled to your opinion . The flush has worked well for me and
others I know personaly , the flush I did was recommended by my medical
doctor . Your blanket statement that they don't work is obviously wrong in
my case and in many others I personaly know of and obviously against is
against what my doctor believes .

Do you have any OBJECTIVE evidence that the flush actually decreased the
number of gallstones IN YOUR GALLBLADDER? Like before and after
ultrasound studies?

And Rich is absolutely right. There is no good evidence that gallbladder
flushes do anything more than enrich the people selling them.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.

He posted:
I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all alternative

medicine

Quoted message said:

is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable assumptions

until I

Quoted message said:

am proven wrong.

This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of course.
No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.

If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
to them either.

I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do reserve the
right to point out error when people post statements that contradict our
current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and citrus
juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng "strengthens the
immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to be
untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
believing such nonsense.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.

He posted:
I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all alternative

medicine

Quoted message said:

is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable assumptions

until I

Quoted message said:

am proven wrong.

This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of course.
No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.

If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
to them either.

I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do reserve

the

Quoted message said:

right to point out error when people post statements that contradict our
current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and citrus
juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng "strengthens

the

Quoted message said:

immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to be
untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
believing such nonsense.

--Rich

Prove it wrong then .

Quoted message said:

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
>
> He posted:
> I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

medicine
> is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable

assumptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

until I
> am proven wrong.

This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.

If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
to them either.

I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do reserve

the

Quoted message said:

right to point out error when people post statements that contradict our
current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and

citrus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng "strengthens

the

Quoted message said:

immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to be
untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
believing such nonsense.

--Rich

Prove it wrong then .

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

"Mark Probert-February 26, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:O3w%b.419678$na.809238@attbi_s04...
>
> "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > You should know this about Rich Shewmaker.
> >
> > He posted:
> > I believe that God does not exist. And I believe that all

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> medicine
> > is quackery. And I believe that these are both reasonable

assumptions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> until I
> > am proven wrong.
>
>
> This Rich fellow is entitled to his beliefs and assumptions, of

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> No one is obligated to 'prove' anything differently to him.
>
> If he is over 18, he surely understands that other people also
> are entitled to be honored for their own beliefs and reasonable
> assumptions, and he is not required to prove anything
> to them either.

I do not hold others "obligated" to prove or disprove, but I do

reserve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

right to point out error when people post statements that contradict

our

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

current scientific body of knowledge. Assertions that olive oil and

citrus

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

juice can flush stones from the gallbladder or that ginseng

"strengthens

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

immune system" will be challenged, because these things are known to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

untrue. And no, I do not think anyone is entitled to be "honored" for
believing such nonsense.

--Rich

Prove it wrong then .

Proponents of the flushes are required to show that the gall bladder has
fewer stones after a flush. In another post you claim that your doctor
recommended them. Did you have their existence determined by pre-flush
ultrasound and did a post-flush ultrasound show that they were gone? If
not,they you really do not know if the flush was effective in eliminating
them.

I have already stated my experience and the experience of others I know
personaly . Don't try and twist it around to me having to prove anything to
you , you are the one who is telling me it doesn't work when from personal
experience I know it does , so you prove your arguement .

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004