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Firecrackers!

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Road Cycling
Published
19 June 2004
Last activity
23 June 2004
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Karen M.
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  1. Kevan Smith said:


    The Real Bev said:
    Kevan Smith said:

    "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox Communications wrote:
    >>Kevan wrote: You're going from chasing to biting. If
    >>a dog is biting you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying
    >>a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that
    >>is merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing
    >>dogs just do it for play, not to commit harm. And, as
    >>I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I have
    >>seen it work many times.
    >
    >Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
    >determine if it's merely a chase or bite?

    No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn
    to freakin' read.

    Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about
    mixing a LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a
    better suggestion?

    Ammonia eats away flesh. It's a caustic solution. That's
    why it blinds. Even a little bit is harmful.

    What do you think is in Windex? Do you wear gloves when you
    clean your windows? Do you know anybody who does? I once
    (yeah, stupid, I know) sprayed myself in the eye with dryer
    fabric-softening spray. It took several days for the blur to
    disappear. Would Windex have been more damaging?

    Quoted message said:

    If you insist on a spray, jalapeno juice (not pickled)
    inflames nerve endings to cause pain, but it is otherwise
    harmless. It's cheaper than pepper spray, too.

    Interesting. So all you need are some jalapenos and a
    blender? And the skill to avoid dripping the stuff on
    yourself? I've dealt with jalapenos. You need gloves.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you have a size limit? I mean, if a Chihuahua were
    chasing you bent on attack, would you spray it with
    ammonia as readily as you might a pit bull?

    No. As a matter of fact I WAS chased by a chihuahua. I had
    time to get off and do my bear imitation. Game little guy. I
    had to do it three times before he went back home. The
    German Shepard turned tail the first time, but my bicycle
    wasn't around.

    Quoted message said:

    Or how about a friendliness limit -- say, a beautiful
    Golden Retriever, among the gentlest of dogs, were chasing
    you and barking, would you spray it with a caustic
    solution?

    You look at their faces. You look at their posture. You look
    at their tails. Some dogs are clearly playing, others want
    blood. With some you can't tell.

    In general, dogs are wonderful. In many cases they're much
    nicer than humans. I don't carry pepper spray or a squirt
    gun or ammonia and I'd have to get off my bike and open up
    my trunk bag to get my pump, which is too puny to be
    usefully threatening to anything past weaning age. I guess I
    could grab my water bottle and throw it at the dog, but that
    doesn't seem like it would be really effective. This whole
    discussion is theoretical.

    Quoted message said:

    If you are looking for a really humane solution to the dog
    chasing problem, I can think of three really good ones: 1)
    outrace the dog,

    I can't outrace my 5'5" 250-lb beer-bellied medicare-age
    friend, why should I be able to outrace a dog of sufficient
    size to be at least potentially frightening? I've been
    riding for 10 years and am not likely to discover new depths
    of hitherto-unfound talent.

    Quoted message said:

    or 2) learn to make dog friends,

    Sometimes works. Dogs are generally very nice people unless
    they've been owned by [censored] who treat them badly.

    or 3) don't ride in that area.

    You mean "don't ride in any area that might contain a possibly-
    scary dog"? My husband, riding alone at night, was chased up
    a hill in the Cajon Pass area by a pack of feral dogs. He
    was just fast enough that he could keep ahead of them and
    eventually they got tired and turned around. He remembers
    wondering if they managed to catch him, could he kill one of
    them and would that perhaps distract the others while they
    ate their former pal?

    What SHOULD he have done?

    --
    Cheers, Bev
    **********************************************************-
    **********
    Organized people will never know the sheer joyous ecstasy of
    finding something that was believed to have been
    irretrievably lost. -- D. Stern

  2. Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:12:41 -0700, <[email hidden]>,
    The Real Bev <[email hidden]> wrote, of ammonia:

    Quoted message said:

    What do you think is in Windex? Do you wear gloves when you
    clean your windows?

    Did you ever spray that stuff on emerging carpenter
    ants? Kills 'em quicker than than Black Flag and much
    easier to clean up.
    --
    zk

  3. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:54:43 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

    Quoted message said:

    BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile, maybe just
    bury a rabbit carcass, and put them to work digging it up.

    I love it! Great idea. Won't work due to the well-manicured
    yard (and I'm not the owner of said yard), but maybe I can
    come up with something.

    Quoted message said:

    OTOH, when they eventually do dig it up, they'd probably
    squabble over it anyway. Never mind. OTotherOH, maybe give
    them /each/ one to dig up. Nah -- then they'd just have two
    dead rabbits to squabble over. Never mind.

    Here's how sharing works for them: The female mini eats
    anything that's edible before the male standard-sized can
    get near it. The male takes anything that could be a toy,
    and makes a really convincing vicious growl if anybody goes
    near it or him.

    My girlfriend, who claims to love these dogs, insists on
    making him do that growl. That growl turns my stomach. I
    just can't believe that he's growling like that as part of a
    game; I believe he really is trying to protect his toy, and
    she's hurting his feelings.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess you're just stuck with vocal dachshunds.

    Yup, that's the conclusion I've come to. As a result, I've
    decided simply to complain on usenet every chance I get --
    if they can be vocal, so can I! <G>

    Actually, I might be able to come up with something like
    your buried rabbit idea. It might actually distract them
    from food and barking.

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat
    a badger. Too bad, because I could actually enjoy these dogs
    that way, and (get ready for Kevan to really boil over) I'd
    love to go hunting and shoot something!

    Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?
    --
    Rick Onanian

  4. Kevan Smith said:

    As a vet, I'm sure you are aware of how cruel and inhumane
    that action is.

    Worked for a vet. Held the dogs while in high school and my
    first year of college. I was the one who stayed in the room
    while everyone else cleared out. That's the main reason for
    the mottle effect on both thumbs and index fingers...

    German Shepherds BTW bite harder than damn near every thing
    else. Fortunately they don't grind their teeth when biting.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  5. Rick Onanian said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat
    a badger. Too bad, because I could actually enjoy these
    dogs that way, and (get ready for Kevan to really boil
    over) I'd love to go hunting and shoot something!

    Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?
    --
    Rick Onanian

    HEY!

    -Badger

  6. Curtis L. Russell said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:54:32 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-

    potato.com said:

    As a vet, I'm sure you are aware of how cruel and inhumane
    that action is.

    Worked for a vet. Held the dogs while in high school and my
    first year of college. I was the one who stayed in the room
    while everyone else cleared out. That's the main reason for
    the mottle effect on both thumbs and index fingers...

    German Shepherds BTW bite harder than damn near every thing
    else. Fortunately they don't grind their teeth when biting.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two
    wheels...

    Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta
    do a website - "things I learned about dogs, and still have
    all my fingers - mostly".

    I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on
    the 'vet days'.

    -Badger

  7. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:12:41 -0700, The Real Bev <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    What SHOULD he have done?

    --
    Cheers, Bev

    Interesting post.

    IMO, doesn't matter how fast you are, how quick, or how
    picky your riding area, the dogs will eventually find you.
    You aren't going to be quick enough to get out your anti-dog
    measures, be accurate enough to hit them or make a
    difference, or always be in the right gear to out-run/ride
    'em. In my case b/c of the injured hip, I can't get off the
    bike fast enough to put it between them and me. This adds
    up, unfortunately to some frustration.

    I am going to start carrying some anti-dog measures, in fact
    three of 'em. I have no intention of using them, but in at
    least one case it could have been very bad - the owner
    actually sicced his dog on me b/c I dared to say 'hey, your
    dog's outta control, if I hit him it's not my fault'. This
    caused an expletive deleted and a dog attack. Fortunately he
    called off his very large rottweiler. If I had the spray, I
    might have sprayed both him and the dog and then got his ID
    and called the cops; but as it was I was able to make
    friends with him by apologizing for my comments. Still,
    inside I wanted to kick his ass and easily could have were I
    not worried about the dog joining in.

    In the final analysis, it's better to be silent, swift and
    fly quietly below the radar. (But in the case of riding
    where there might be feral dogs, I'd be CCW-ing. Even this
    could be bad, b/c if you stop to draw a bead, you would
    get mobbed)

    -Badger

  8. On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:33 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Onanian said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would
    eat a badger. Too


    ...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?

    HEY! -Badger

    Sorry, I was just talking about badgers north... 😉
    --
    Rick Onanian

  9. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Kevan Smith said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell
    <[email hidden]> from BellSouth Internet

    Group said:

    I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

    A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that
    negative reinforcement (correction) is inappropriate.
    Meditate on the primary defence of skunks and porcupines
    and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
    stop an instinctive behavior.

    instinct remains. In terms of the chasing instinct, your
    one spray with the ammonia bottle would be enough to blind
    and maim the dog, but it's not nearly enough training time
    to change the instinctual behavior.

    Kevan, please keep track of who you're talking to. I defy
    you to find any post of mine in the last several days where
    I even implied that I approve of spraying any living
    creature with ammonia.

    Mark

    - --
    Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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  10. On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:33 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta
    do a website - "things I learned about dogs, and still have
    all my fingers - mostly".

    I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on
    the 'vet days'.

    -Badger

    Do you remember the comment in "The Magnificent Seven" about
    not hiring the guy with scars? We're the ones who didn't
    know quite enough or weren't quite fast enough...

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  11. Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:54:43 -0700, [email hidden]

    (Tom Keats) said:

    BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile,


    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would
    eat a badger.


    ----------

    I think the idea is that a badger would probably eat the
    DOGS.

    d

  12. Curtis L. Russell said:
    Badger_South said:


    Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta
    do a website - "things I learned about dogs, and still
    have all my fingers - mostly".

    I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on
    the 'vet days'.

    -Badger

    Do you remember the comment in "The Magnificent Seven"
    about not hiring the guy with scars? We're the ones who
    didn't know quite enough or weren't quite fast enough...

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two
    wheels...

    I'da hired him as a consultant, though. ;-)

    -B

  13. (dan baker) said:

    Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:54:43 -0700, [email hidden]

    (Tom Keats) said:

    BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile,


    ...

    Quoted message said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would
    eat a badger.


    ----------

    I think the idea is that a badger would probably eat
    the DOGS.

    d

    mm-mm, cookies. ;-p

    -B

  14. On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:58:51 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would
    eat a badger.


    ----------

    I think the idea is that a badger would probably eat
    the DOGS.

    Well, this is my last vet story. I worked at a veterinary
    clinic outside of Ft. Hood, Texas in my last year of high
    school. Some soldier back from Germany brought in a Schwartz
    Wald dachshund to board. This sucker was the size of a
    basset hound and solid muscle.

    I had to remove the bed platform made of 1x4s to clean the
    runs everyday. As I was leaving this dogs run, bedboard in
    hand, I heard a growl from behind. I turned just in time
    to see this dachshund launch himself straight at my chest.
    I hit him in mid-air with the bedboard, breaking it over
    his head and knocking him to the end of the run. Looked
    dead to me.

    Figuring I had killed him, I went and got the vet. By the
    time we got back to the runs, he was circling, [censored] as
    hell, with blood coming from the top of his head. The vets
    decided that never mind the blood, the dog was healthy. I
    decided unilaterally to wash down everything with a hose
    from outside the run, dog and all.

    The owner wasn't bothered by the scar at all. The dog was
    orgiinally used as a hunter, going down holes after
    moderately sized vermin. The scar just joined the others
    already over his head and shoulders. So some dachshunds CAN
    take on the odd badger or two, German variety...

    Last dog I ever turned my back on, too.

    Curtis L. Russell And then there was the little dog that was
    an escape artist. Climbed over the fence into the mastiff's
    run and we never found hide nor hair of him again...

  15. Curtis L. Russell said:
    Badger_South said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested
    > taking them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody
    > who would eat a badger.
    ----------

    I think the idea is that a badger would probably eat
    the DOGS.

    Sure, cut out my jokes and attribute this part to me...

    Quoted message said:


    Well, this is my last vet story.

    Aww-w. More, more - author, author. ;-p

    Quoted message said:

    I worked at a veterinary clinic outside of Ft. Hood, Texas
    in my last year of high school.

    <Cool story snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    Last dog I ever turned my back on, too.

    Well just to balance out the discussion, I like dogs, my
    life was prob. saved (as a baby) by the dog that dragged me
    out of the street in front of my house, dogs like me. and I
    own a dog. (Jack Russell mix).

    [There's just something primitive that comes up when I'm on
    a peaceful bike ride and get chased by snarling snapping
    things. (Fortunately the odd "Chelydra" I can out-run.)]

    -B

    Quoted message said:


    Curtis L. Russell And then there was the little dog
    that was an escape artist. Climbed over the fence into
    the mastiff's run and we never found hide nor hair of
    him again...

    Youse looked for hairs and fibres? ;-

  16. Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:12:29 -0400,
    <[email hidden]>, Rick Onanian

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:54:43 -0700, [email hidden]

    (Tom Keats) said:

    BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile, maybe just
    bury a rabbit carcass, and put them to work digging it up.

    I love it! Great idea. Won't work due to the well-manicured
    yard (and I'm not the owner of said yard), but maybe I can
    come up with something.

    Teach them to hunt moles and gophers. Hire 'em out as
    varmint control. Let them earn their kibbles and beer.
    --
    zk

  17. On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:05:59 GMT, Mark Mitchell

    from BellSouth Internet Service said:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

    Kevan Smith said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell
    <[email hidden]> from BellSouth

    Internet Group said:

    I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

    A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that
    negative reinforcement (correction) is inappropriate.
    Meditate on the primary defence of skunks and porcupines
    and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
    stop an instinctive behavior.

    instinct remains. In terms of the chasing instinct, your
    one spray with the ammonia bottle would be enough to
    blind and maim the dog, but it's not nearly enough
    training time to change the instinctual behavior.

    Kevan, please keep track of who you're talking to. I defy
    you to find any post of mine in the last several days where
    I even implied that I approve of spraying any living
    creature with ammonia.

    Joinign this argument the way you did, that is the exact
    practice you are defending. That is the "negative
    reinforcement" method that started the discussion.

    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email hidden]

  18. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:12:41 -0700, The Real Bev <[email hidden]> from

    Quoted message said:
    Kevan Smith said:


    The Real Bev said:

    Kevan Smith wrote:
    > "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox Communications wrote:
    > >>Kevan wrote: You're going from chasing to biting. If
    > >>a dog is biting you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying
    > >>a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that
    > >>is merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most
    > >>chasing dogs just do it for play, not to commit
    > >>harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops
    > >>them. I have seen it work many times.
    > >
    > >Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
    > >determine if it's merely a chase or bite?
    >
    > No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn
    > to freakin' read.

    Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about
    mixing a LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a
    better suggestion?

    Ammonia eats away flesh. It's a caustic solution. That's
    why it blinds. Even a little bit is harmful.

    What do you think is in Windex? Do you wear gloves when you
    clean your windows? Do you know anybody who does? I once
    (yeah, stupid, I know) sprayed myself in the eye with dryer
    fabric-softening spray. It took several days for the blur
    to disappear. Would Windex have been more damaging?

    Likely so.

    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email hidden]

  19. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:12:29 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> from The

    Esoteric c0wz Society said:

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking
    them badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat
    a badger. Too bad, because I could actually enjoy these
    dogs that way, and (get ready for Kevan to really boil
    over) I'd love to go hunting and shoot something!

    I grew up hunting and fishing. I gave it up as a personal
    decision. I don't object to it for other people until they
    cross the line of treating game animals inhumanely. I have
    no respect for people who bait fields, release game in
    closed areas for a so-called "big game hunt," or any number
    of dubious acts. It pollutes the sport.

    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email hidden]

  20. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Kevan Smith said:

    On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:05:59 GMT, Mark Mitchell
    <[email hidden]> from BellSouth Internet

    Service said:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

    Kevan Smith said:

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell
    <[email hidden]> from BellSouth
    Internet Group wrote:

    >I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.
    >
    >A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that
    >negative reinforcement (correction) is inappropriate.
    >Meditate on the primary defence of skunks and porcupines
    >and then tell me that no amount of correction is going
    >to stop an instinctive behavior.

    instinct remains. In terms of the chasing instinct, your
    one spray with the ammonia bottle would be enough to
    blind and maim the dog, but it's not nearly enough
    training time to change the instinctual behavior.

    Kevan, please keep track of who you're talking to. I defy
    you to find any post of mine in the last several days
    where I even implied that I approve of spraying any living
    creature with ammonia.

    Joinign this argument the way you did, that is the exact
    practice you are defending. That is the "negative
    reinforcement" method that started the discussion.


    Beg to differ, sir. I do feel that, in some cases, spraying
    a chasing dog with an unpleasant liquid is appropriate (I
    believe I suggested a dilute solution of vinegar and water),
    I have never advocated or defended the use of ammonia.

    Perhaps next time before you put words in my mouth, you
    might want to look to see what I've actually said.

    Mark

    - --
    Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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