Firecrackers!

On 20 Jun 2004 07:58:22 -0700, [email hidden] (John) from

url='http://groups.google.com/'http://groups.google.com/url said:

The dogs have bitten me. I confronted the owner after that
happened and was told that since they lived in the country
they weren't going to chain their dogs...which I guess I
can understand. But there are dozens of unchained dogs
around here that don't chase me and have never bitten me.

After talking to the owner some more, I decided to try Halt
spray. I managed to hit 1 dog with it. That dog immediately
stopped chasing, went to the side of the road, and started
rubbing its head on the ground. But the dogs have continued
to chase despite that instance and further use of the Halt.

I regard the owner's negligence in training and controlling
his animals, which is leading towards the dogs being put
down, as a far greater example of animal cruelty than
ammonia, firecrackers, or a gunshot to the head.

No, ammonia is still cruel. There is no doubt the owner is
in the wrong hear, however, you are too. Instead of
escalating to chemical warfare, you should call the animal
control authorities. Perhaps they can help the dogs find a
better owner.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

Most chasing dogs just do it for play, not to commit harm.
And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I have
seen it work many times.

Most of the city dogs that have chased after me, stopped
when I did. I guess I spoilt their fun, but I didn't want
them getting hit by cars. Didn't even need to squirt
anything at them. Some dogs might need a light, educational
swat or poke with a pump or something, just enough to teach
them that bikes aren't as fun or appropriate as a tennis
ball or frisbee to chase after. Don't have to bash their
heads in, though; far from it.

Sometimes dogs don't even chase for play, they just
desperately need someone to talk to.

Cats generally know exactly the right amount of warning
feint plus actual force to use to get typical house pet dogs
to back off. We can learn from cats.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein

from DCI HiNet said:

You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the
ammonia directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling
stuff between whatever is chasing you, and you.

That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than
you already do. You would spray the ammonia on the dog.

Quoted message said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's
pet. Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not
be the case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation
frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.

A dingo ate your heart, apparently.

Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously
be better off not riding your bike there. And, if the dogs
are such a danger, I am sure there are organized efforts
you can join to cull the population humanely.

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

Mr. Klein lives in Taiwan, Ibelieve.

There, dog is a fine meal eaten by humans.

Only fair that a dog gets a chance at eating a humane....)

What a beautiful day here on the east coast. Why am I stuck
mowing the lawn, triming the hedge cutting down a dead tree,
etc etc etc..

I could be RIDING!

HAND

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

In article <[email hidden]>,

H. M. Leary said:

Only fair that a dog gets a chance at eating a humane....)

LOL

Quoted message said:

What a beautiful day here on the east coast. Why am I
stuck mowing the lawn, triming the hedge cutting down a
dead tree, etc etc etc..

I could be RIDING!

It's too hot anyways ;-) I've got some lawn & garden care
to do, too.

Quoted message said:

HAND

You too.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying

ammonia

Quoted message said:

on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the
case through the courts to make sure you are punished.
There is no need to spray ammonia on

a

Quoted message said:

chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the
animal enough to

make

Quoted message said:

it give up the chase. I have seen this work time
after time.

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith

Two things: One, people ARE allowed to defend themselves
against attackers, whether they be humans or animals. and,
Two, people are not bound by what one Kevan Smith thinks is
or is not acceptable self defense.

Pat in TX

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South

from said:

But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is it
not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd doubt
that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the dog, but I
don't know - perhaps you have some experience?

Test it on your own eyes first.

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.

Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
(or -that- dog) - would you?

-Badger

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:47:41 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-

potato.com said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South

from said:

But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is it
not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd doubt
that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the dog, but
I don't know - perhaps you have some experience?

Test it on your own eyes first.

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.

Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
(or -that- dog) - would you?

It's not hostile. If you want to find out the effects of
ammonia on eyes, then use your own. Why torture a dog?

Deliberately using a chemical known to blind is cruelty to
animals. Yes, I can blame people who break the law,
previously bitten or not.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:15:38 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats) from

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

Most chasing dogs just do it for play, not to commit
harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them.
I have seen it work many times.

Most of the city dogs that have chased after me, stopped
when I did. I guess I spoilt their fun, but I didn't want
them getting hit by cars. Didn't even need to squirt
anything at them.

That's been my experience, too. Also, I've made some good
dog friends in the countryside. I look forward to a little
race with them, and I think they like it, too. However,
there are some days that are so hot and muggy they just
stay in the shade and give a lazy little woof and a wag as
I ride by.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

Pat' from said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying

ammonia

Quoted message said:

on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the
case through the courts to make sure you are punished.
There is no need to spray ammonia on

a

Quoted message said:

chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the
animal enough to

make

Quoted message said:

it give up the chase. I have seen this work time
after time.

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith

Two things: One, people ARE allowed to defend themselves
against attackers, whether they be humans or animals. and,
Two, people are not bound by what one Kevan Smith thinks is
or is not acceptable self defense.

Well, no [censored]. I'm glad you stepped up on your teensy
sopabox to advocate torturing dogs.

BTW, spraying a chasing dog with ammonia is NOT self
defense.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

"The amount of ammonia produced by humans every year is
almost equal to that produced by nature every year. Ammonia
is produced naturally in soil by bacteria, decaying plants
and animals, and animal wastes. Ammonia is essential for
many biological processes.

How can ammonia affect my health? Exposure to high
concentrations of ammonia in the air may cause severe
burns in your skin, eyes, throat, and lungs. In
extreme cases, blindness, lung damage, or death could
occur. Breathing lower concentrations will cause
coughing and nose and throat irritation.

If you swallow ammonia, you could suffer burns in your
mouth, throat, and stomach. Concentrated ammonia
spilled on the skin will cause burns. Animal studies
show effects similar to those observed in people. We
do not know if ammonia affects reproduction in humans.

atsdr.cdc.govtfacts126.htmlOpen ↗"

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South
<[email hidden]> from wrote:

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.
--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting
you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a chemical that could
blind or poison on a dog that is merely chasing is cruelty
to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for

play,

Quoted message said:

not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of
water stops them. I

have

Quoted message said:

seen it work many times.

--
Kevan Smith

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
determine if it's merely a chase or bite? Don't think
so, the dog's actions are your option to determine if he
means you harm or not.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:19:13 -0500, Kevan Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:47:41 -0400, Badger_South

from said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-

potato.com said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South
<[email hidden]> from wrote:

>But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is
>it not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd
>doubt that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the
>dog, but I don't know - perhaps you have some
>experience?

Test it on your own eyes first.

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.

Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
(or -that- dog) - would you?

It's not hostile. If you want to find out the effects of
ammonia on eyes, then use your own. Why torture a dog?

Deliberately using a chemical known to blind is cruelty to
animals. Yes, I can blame people who break the law,
previously bitten or not.

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree, it's
not cool to use concentrated ammonia on animals for any
reason. I think the reason one poster mentioned it was that
it's a common household chemical, and they may have recalled
the reaction to an ammonia capsule, which when used to
arouse from fainting, causes aversion; they may have been
imagining squirting the dog's nose, actually.

So I don't think anyone would advocate, nor deliberately use
to blind, such a substance.

I've never sprayed a dog with anything, but I have been
harassed by many dogs, had them jump on me (which the owners
think is 'cute'😉, had their claws rip the skin on my legs
(still have a scar).

Again, your reaction seems hostile, or at least
exaggerated, considering no one said anything about
blinding, to a simple inquiry.

But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs are
completely faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault for
being in the wrong place at the wrong time", "he's
harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog would
never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your
leg). Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

-Badger

Kevan Smith said:

On 20 Jun 2004 07:58:22 -0700, [email hidden] (John) from

url='http://groups.google.com/'http://groups.google.com/url said:

The dogs have bitten me. I confronted the owner after that
happened and was told that since they lived in the country
they weren't going to chain their dogs...which I guess I
can understand. But there are dozens of unchained dogs
around here that don't chase me and have never bitten me.

After talking to the owner some more, I decided to try
Halt spray. I managed to hit 1 dog with it. That dog
immediately stopped chasing, went to the side of the road,
and started rubbing its head on the ground. But the dogs
have continued to chase despite that instance and further
use of the Halt.

I regard the owner's negligence in training and
controlling his animals, which is leading towards the dogs
being put down, as a far greater example of animal cruelty
than ammonia, firecrackers, or a gunshot to the head.

No, ammonia is still cruel. There is no doubt the owner is
in the wrong hear, however, you are too. Instead of
escalating to chemical warfare, you should call the animal
control authorities. Perhaps they can help the dogs find a
better owner.

In other words, let the government take care of it, once
again. Man, I hate the socialist agenda. How about the
Citizen remove the threat by taking personal responsibility?

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:47:41 -0400, Badger_South

from said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:11:55 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-

potato.com said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:04:27 -0400, Badger_South
<[email hidden]> from wrote:

>But are you saying that ammonia would harm the dog? Is
>it not equivalent to skunk spray (only less oily)? I'd
>doubt that 1/2 clear ammonia and water would harm the
>dog, but I don't know - perhaps you have some
>experience?

Test it on your own eyes first.

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.

Pretty hostile response on your part to a simple question.
Why so hostile to fellow bikers than to growling snarling
animals with apparent bad intentions? I wouldn't blame
anyone that had been previously bitten for spraying a dog
(or -that- dog) - would you?

It's not hostile. If you want to find out the effects of
ammonia on eyes, then use your own. Why torture a dog?

Deliberately using a chemical known to blind is cruelty to
animals. Yes, I can blame people who break the law,
previously bitten or not.

Law? You keep talking about laws and authorities like they
are the answer to the problem. Michael J. Klein
[email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:31:15 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snippled to save everyone's sanity>

Quoted message said:

But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs
are completely faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault
for being in the wrong place at the wrong time", "he's
harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog would
never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your
leg). Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

That is exactly what the owner said to the policeman as he
was taking their dog away for having attacked me. That was
in the US of course, and in the '60s I might add. "He's
never done that before" became "yeah, and he'll never do it
again." Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen,
Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, [email hidden] (GABIKE) from

AOL url='http://www.aol.com/'http://www.aol.com/url said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying ammonia on a dog, I will report you to
the police and follow the case through the courts to make
sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia
on a chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks
the animal enough to make it give up the chase. I have
seen this work time after time.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your
rear end.

A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually
instinct or play.

Man, you just won't give up will you? "Usually" OK, fine.
When its _not_ instinct or play, and an animal clearly wants
to do you harm, tell us all Kevan, what do you do? Do you
threaten to sue? Toss your attorney's business card as a
warning? Site articles of the local civil code? I have a
list and I'm going to compare it with your response. I'll
bet I'm right.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein

from DCI HiNet said:

You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the
ammonia directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling
stuff between whatever is chasing you, and you.

That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than
you already do. You would spray the ammonia on the dog.

How do you know? If I appear to be an ass, apparently you're
the only one who thinks so. Like I care. lol

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet.
Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not be the
case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation frequently
overtakes, kills and eats humans.

A dingo ate your heart, apparently.

I'm the ass, huh?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously
be better off not riding your bike there. And, if the dogs
are such a danger, I am sure there are organized efforts
you can join to cull the population humanely.

Another thing you're so "sure" of, eh? I guess you could
call literally throwing hundreds of dogs in a pit and
dousing them with chemicals "humane" but that isn't my
style. This is Asia, not Peoria.

Quoted message said:

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

actually be paying attention, that's your problem, not mine.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

H. M. Leary said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein

from DCI HiNet said:

You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the
ammonia directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling
stuff between whatever is chasing you, and you.

That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than
you already do. You would spray the ammonia on the dog.

Quoted message said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's
pet. Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not
be the case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation
frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.

A dingo ate your heart, apparently.

Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously
be better off not riding your bike there. And, if the
dogs are such a danger, I am sure there are organized
efforts you can join to cull the population humanely.

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

Mr. Klein lives in Taiwan, Ibelieve.

Correct. It even says so in my sig. Amazing what one can
learn from a sigline, isn't it? Its also more amazing what
one fails to learn from informationn clearly presented (and
I'm not referring to you Mr. Leary).

Quoted message said:

There, dog is a fine meal eaten by humans.

I have a story about that. In Asia, its common to have a
picture of the type of animal that a restaurant serves, like
a chicken, duck or cow, for example. One day my wife and I
were driving along and I suggested that we get some German
Shepard for lunch as I pointed to a sign with a picture of
that type of dog. She punched me in th arm and told me that
was a guard dog training school!

The Taiwanese do not eat dogs as do other Asian people (and
some Africans). I have eaten many different animals in my
travels around but never dog.

Quoted message said:

Only fair that a dog gets a chance at eating a humane....)

What a beautiful day here on the east coast. Why am I stuck
mowing the lawn, triming the hedge cutting down a dead
tree, etc etc etc..

I could be RIDING!

Can it wait until tomorrow? lol Michael J. Klein
[email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:18:48 -0500, "Pat" <[email hidden]>

from said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying

ammonia

Quoted message said:

on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the
case through the courts to make sure you are punished.
There is no need to spray ammonia on

a

Quoted message said:

chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the
animal enough to

make

Quoted message said:

it give up the chase. I have seen this work time
after time.

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith

Two things: One, people ARE allowed to defend themselves
against attackers, whether they be humans or animals. and,
Two, people are not bound by what one Kevan Smith thinks
is or is not acceptable self defense.

Well, no [censored]. I'm glad you stepped up on your teensy
sopabox to advocate torturing dogs.

You don't need to ride Kevan. You get enough exercise
jumping to conclusions.

Quoted message said:

BTW, spraying a chasing dog with ammonia is NOT self
defense.

<yawn> Burn me a CD.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

That's usually what stupid people say when confronted by a
statement they cannot imagine to be true. Smart people check
the facts and then make rebuttals, if possible.

news.nationalgeographic.com0821 03082Open ↗
1_straydogs.html OMG, they mention Taiwan, and its a US
news story!

taipeitimes.com0000046Open ↗
511 "Three years ago the stray population was estimated at
75,000, and last year it was 54,000, he said. This year the
number is roughly 18,000."

lonelocust.comTaiwan3.htmOpen ↗
" First we caught the [Taipei Rapid Transit], then we took
off on foot. We were moving at a rapid clip, but then a pack
of wild dogs set upon us. We left Jeff for dead, fighting
off the dogs." - written by private Citizens in Taiwan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's enough to establish the point. If you are interested
you may do your own search. Michael J. Klein
[email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------