Firecrackers!

Michael J. Klein misquoted me thus:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Karen M.) wrote in message news-
:<[email hidden]>...
I've been thinking about picking up some of these to deal
with dogs. Of course trying to light an explosive while
dealing with traffic and dogs doesn't sound like too good
of an idea, but I doubt it's much harder than trying to
aim a can of Halt at 20mph.

I did not write the above paragraph.

--Karen M.

Badger_South said:

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree,
it's not cool to use concentrated ammonia on animals for
any reason....

Er, OP is moi, and my thread is about FIRECRACKERS, not
dogs nor ammonia.

--Karen M.,

Claire said:

This story made me recall how someone threw a firecracker
at my while I was on my bike when I was about nine or ten
years old. I was *so* frightened from it. I rode to my
friend's house which was only four more houses down the
street, and basically stepped over their threshold and
burst into sobs. Her mom was really nice to me, and helped
me feel better. It's mean to throw firecrackers at anyone,
but at a kid is even worse. I had completely forgotten
that incident until reading this posting.

Karen, you don't have a friend's mom to give you hugs,
probably, so I'll give you some of my virtual ones.

You're a dear! I wasn't scared, just mightily PO'ed at
these jerks and intent on getting them stopped before
they try it again and hurt someone.

--Karen M. eager for Independence Day to get here and be
gone!

(Karen M.) said:

Badger_South said:

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree,
it's not cool to use concentrated ammonia on animals for
any reason....

Er, OP is moi, and my thread is about FIRECRACKERS, not
dogs nor ammonia.

--Karen M.,

Correct. Apologies, KM.

-B

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:35:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats) from

Quoted message said:

Chasing is one thing, but viciously attacking is
quite another.

And I have never claimed the two to be the same.

The original post I responded to suggested spraying
ammonia on dogs that merely chase. The whole attacking
notion came from people who got their panties all up in a
knot over my response.

If you are attacked by a dog, do defend yourself. If you
think you'll have the time and accuracy to squirt a dog
with ammonia while being attacked, you're welcome to try,
but I think you'll be better off using your bike as both
shield and club.

However, chasing is not attacking. Chasing is just
following. And usually, chasing bikes is meant to be play,
not attack. Even the dogs that look like they are going to
attack are usually going to abandon the chase when you leave
their territory.

If people learned more about dogs, they would be less
fearful of them.
--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:57:54 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

It's silent, instantaneous, quick to deploy, extremely
accurate, and should easily escape detection of its use by
the dog owner, and should do no permanent harm to the
offending dog. It's also effective on all dogs, unlike the
sonic devices, or heh, a squirt of water.

You're gonna fart on the animal? 🙂

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith said:

di' from Cox Communications said:

>Kevan wrote: You're going from chasing to biting. If a
>dog is biting you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a
>chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
>merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs
>just do it for play, not to commit harm. And, as I
>said, a simple spray of water stops them. I have seen
>it work many times.

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
determine if it's merely a chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about
mixing a LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a
better suggestion?

Ammonia eats away flesh. It's a caustic solution. That's why
it blinds. Even a little bit is harmful.

If you insist on a spray, jalapeno juice (not pickled)
inflames nerve endings to cause pain, but it is otherwise
harmless. It's cheaper than pepper spray, too.

Do you have a size limit? I mean, if a Chihuahua were
chasing you bent on attack, would you spray it with ammonia
as readily as you might a pit bull? Or how about a
friendliness limit -- say, a beautiful Golden Retriever,
among the gentlest of dogs, were chasing you and barking,
would you spray it with a caustic solution?

If you are looking for a really humane solution to the dog
chasing problem, I can think of three really good ones: 1)
outrace the dog, or 2) learn to make dog friends, or 3)
don't ride in that area.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

I've heard that a little whack on the nose with a water bottle will do the trick. BTW, wasn't this supposed to be about firecrackers?

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that
negative reinforcement (correction) is inappropriate.
Meditate on the primary defence of skunks and porcupines
and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
stop an instinctive behavior.

I've seen some dogs go after skunks time and again no matter
how much they get sprayed. In fact, dogs love rolling in
awful smells. Skunk spray, to them, can be a badge of honor.
Further, neither skunk spray nor porcupine quills are
generally harmful in the long run.

Sure, enough training changes instinctive behavior into
other areas, but the instinct remains. In terms of the
chasing instinct, your one spray with the ammonia
bottle would be enough to blind and maim the dog, but
it's not nearly enough training time to change the
instinctual behavior.
--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you are looking for a really humane solution to the
dog chasing

problem, I

Quoted message said:

can think of three really good ones: 1) outrace the dog,

While this may be possible for you, someone else may not
have the physical ability, or even the desire, to do this.

or 2) learn to make

Quoted message said:

dog friends,

Not everyone wants dog friends and besides, not all dogs
are friendly.

or 3) don't ride in that area.

I have a right to ride in any area I want; the dog does not
have the right to chase me.

It seems so simple to me. The dog's owner has the
responsibility to keep his dog out of the street. If he
can't or won't do it and his dog attacks someone, he, and
the dog, must suffer the consequences.

If a strange dog runs up to you barking and growling, how
are you going to know if he's just "chasing" and not
attacking, until it's too late. I don't want to get bit or
knocked off my bike.

Although I would never advocate using ammonia or any other
caustic or poisonous substances on a chasing dog, I do think
pepper spray is a good idea. It will cause no permanent
damage to the dog and may teach both the dog and owner a
valuable lesson.

Dave

Kevan Smith said:

However, chasing is not attacking. Chasing is just
following. And usually, chasing bikes is meant to be play,
not attack. Even the dogs that look like they are going to
attack are usually going to abandon the chase when you
leave their territory.

If people learned more about dogs, they would be less
fearful of them.

And there are a whole lot of dogs that will nip when
chasing, friendly or not (I have an Aussie that will do it
if you get her herding instincts flowing). Nipping a cyclist
can cripple. I actually know more cyclists that had
permanent (two cases) and semi-permanent (five cases IIRC)
damage from dogs nipping the heel than I know people that
had serious injury from the oft-discussed helmet issues.

IMO a person that can take action against a chaser, should.
This is a dog, whether friendly or not, that can take out
another cyclist if not curbed. Its enough that the dog
chases - if the cyclist ends up off the road and injured
from their reaction, it is irrelevant whether or not the dog
was friendly. (I had a Doberman owner with three free-
running Dobs tell me that his Dobs were 'friendly' and I was
overreacting to the 200 plus pounds of dog and teeth - he
got to tell the same story to the Maryland State trooper who
seemed to have my opinion of the mutts.Never saw those dogs
outside again.)

And I worked at a vet for three years and have owned a lot
of dogs myself. I know dogs better than most - I'm one of
those people that they call a dog person, where even
unfriendly dogs come up to me wagging their tails - but the
only people worse than those that know nothing about dogs
are those that assume they can read every dog that comes up
the pike. I've had my share of stitches from dogs that both
I and the vets misread (actually both thumbs have scars up
their side from 30 plus years ago). And some large breeds
are known for making no overt sign until they strike.

Don't assume the Akita is just chasing for fun. You'll have
about two seconds for your decision-making if you treat it
as a chase (I think that was my left thumb, to the bone).

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, [email hidden] (GABIKE) from

AOL url='http://www.aol.com/'http://www.aol.com/url said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying

ammonia

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the
case through

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

courts to make sure you are punished. There is no need
to spray ammonia

on a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the
animal enough to

make

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it give up the chase. I have seen this work time
after time.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your
rear end.

A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually
instinct or play.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

Kevan know, he talks to dogs all the time...

Kevan Smith said:

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little
choice in the matter. If the instinct is strong enough, no
amount of your "correction" is going to stop it. The way we
train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

Any suggestions for training two dachshunds to stop barking?
Maybe I can harness their barking instinct for some more
useful purpose like power generation. I'll attach generators
to their jaws...

I wonder if I can get them to run on a treadmill, so they'll
be too tired to bark.
--
Rick Onanian

(John) said:

I've been thinking about picking up some of these to deal
with dogs. Of course trying to light an explosive while
dealing with traffic and dogs doesn't sound like too good
of an idea, but I doubt it's much harder than trying to aim
a can of Halt at 20mph.

How about those 'snappers', the little paper sacks filled
with some sort of rock that goes "snap" and smokes a little
when you throw it at the ground...might work, and much
easier, just drop it; "SNAP!".
--
Rick Onanian

F1' from said:

Kevan know, he talks to dogs all the time...

Yep, and your momma says hi.

/me rolls eyes

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:24:57 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> from The

Esoteric c0wz Society said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:21:53 -0500, Kevan Smith <Kevan@mouse-

potato.com said:

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little
choice in the matter. If the instinct is strong enough, no
amount of your "correction" is going to stop it. The way
we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more
positive directions.

Any suggestions for training two dachshunds to stop
barking?

Make their environment more peaceful.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:52:24 -0400, Curtis L. Russell

from The Maryland Russells said:

IMO a person that can take action against a chaser, should.
This is a dog, whether friendly or not, that can take out
another cyclist if not curbed. Its enough that the dog
chases - if the cyclist ends up off the road and injured
from their reaction, it is irrelevant whether or not the
dog was friendly. (I had a Doberman owner with three free-
running Dobs tell me that his Dobs were 'friendly' and I
was overreacting to the 200 plus pounds of dog and teeth -
he got to tell the same story to the Maryland State trooper
who seemed to have my opinion of the mutts.Never saw those
dogs outside again.)

And I worked at a vet for three years and have owned a lot
of dogs myself. I know dogs better than most - I'm one of
those people that they call a dog person, where even
unfriendly dogs come up to me wagging their tails - but the
only people worse than those that know nothing about dogs
are those that assume they can read every dog that comes up
the pike. I've had my share of stitches from dogs that both
I and the vets misread (actually both thumbs have scars up
their side from 30 plus years ago). And some large breeds
are known for making no overt sign until they strike.

Don't assume the Akita is just chasing for fun. You'll have
about two seconds for your decision-making if you treat it
as a chase (I think that was my left thumb, to the bone).

I'm one of those dog people, too. They seem to take a real
liking to me, perhaps because they know I stick up for them.

I agree that a person who can should take action in regard
to a chasing dog. I don't think spraying ammonia is the
thing to do. As a vet, I'm sure you are aware of how cruel
and inhumane that action is.

As cyclist, we have a long tradition of what to do about
chasing dogs. The general consensus, based on countless
cyclist years of experience, is that the best thing to do is
either spray water at the dog or outrun it. It's right to
look down on people who advocate spraying the dogs with
maiming chemicals or shooting the dogs; those sorts of
people are rightfully called mean and cruel. Animals may not
have rights, but, as stewards, we have an obligation to
treat animals humanely.

You did the exact right thing regarding the Dobermans. I
would suggest that if water spraying and outrunning doesn't
work, that is the next step with any chasing dog -- notify
the authorities. If the dog has an owner, then the cops can
sure convince him or her to keep his fogs in. If the dog is
a stray, then animal control can handle it.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rick Onanian said:

How about those 'snappers', the little paper sacks filled
with some sort of rock that goes "snap" and smokes a
little when you throw it at the ground...might work, and
much easier, just drop it; "SNAP!".

It won't work.

No more than firecrackers, spritzes, or any other gimmicks.
A dog who is really intent on catching you simply won't be
distracted. If the pooch really is more of a threat than a
kick-off-able ankle-biter or a flappy, love-starved ol'
puppy, it all boils down to fight or flight.

Here's the standard, time-tested-&-true advice: Outrun them
if you can. If you can't and the dog persists: stop,
dismount, use your bike as a shield between you and the dog,
and do what you must to defend yourself.

But your hands are going to be too full of bike to be
reaching for firecrackers + a lighter, or a can of Halt.
You'd be using your feet a lot, as well as brandishing your
bike while the dog is trying to circle around behind you.
And you'd have to be very, very quick so the dog can't latch
onto you. You won't have a chance to be reaching for anti-
dog weaponry, so there's really no point in packing all that
extra, useless stuff around.

BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile, maybe just
bury a rabbit carcass, and put them to work digging it up.
OTOH, when they eventually do dig it up, they'd probably
squabble over it anyway. Never mind. OTotherOH, maybe give
them /each/ one to dig up. Nah -- then they'd just have two
dead rabbits to squabble over. Never mind. I guess you're
just stuck with vocal dachshunds.

cheers, Tom

--
-- "I didn't punch no doggie." -- Billy Martin, in an old
beer commercial

Michael J. Klein said:

lonelocust.comTaiwan3Open ↗
.htm " First we caught the [Taipei Rapid Transit], then
we took off on foot. We were moving at a rapid clip, but
then a pack of wild dogs set upon us. We left Jeff for
dead, fighting off the dogs." - written by private
Citizens in Taiwan.

Hmm, the rest of that paragraph says:

"David and I hurried... faster and faster we walked,
finally arriving at 9:30... too late. Chu-Wan was already
there... as was Jeff. He had taken a Taxi."

I guess reports of poor Jeff's demise must have been greatly
exaggerated.

Not a fan of uncontrolled dogs, Ben

keydates said:

I've heard that a little whack on the nose with a water
bottle will do the trick.

I thought that was sharks, although I guess you wouldn't be
likely to be carrying a water bottle during a shark attack.
Never mind...

Quoted message said:

BTW, wasn't this supposed to be about firecrackers?

You probably couldn't throw firecrackers at a shark either.
What a silly idea.

--
Cheers, Bev
**********************************************************-
**********
Organized people will never know the sheer joyous ecstasy of
finding something that was believed to have been
irretrievably lost. -- D. Stern