Firecrackers!

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Kevan Smith said:

On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, [email hidden] (GABIKE) from

AOL url='http://www.aol.com/'http://www.aol.com/url said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see
anyone spraying ammonia on a dog, I will report you to
the police and follow the case through the courts to make
sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia
on a chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks
the animal enough to make it give up the chase. I have
seen this work time after time.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your
rear end.

A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually
instinct or play.

--
Kevan Smith [email hidden]

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not
malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a
bicyclist is wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the
owner is not willing to take responsibility for the safety
(whether the threat is real or not) of others, I have no
problem correcting the dog myself.

I agree with Kevan that ammonia is probably
inappropriate, but a teaspoon of vinegar in a pint of
water will be sufficiently unpleasant to deter the dog
while having a minimal danger of causing serious health
problems for the dog.

Mark

- --
Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:06:30 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox

Communications said:

Quoted message said:

You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting
you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a chemical that
could blind or poison on a dog that is merely chasing is
cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for

play,

Quoted message said:

not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of
water stops them. I

have

Quoted message said:

seen it work many times.

--
Kevan Smith

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine
if it's merely a chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:29 +0800, Michael J. Klein <[email hidden]>

from DCI HiNet said:

In other words, let the government take care of it, once
again. Man, I hate the socialist agenda. How about the
Citizen remove the threat by taking personal
responsibility?

You are a right wing kook.

*plonk*

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine
if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work
you probably won't have time for another option. I prefer to
use a more effective way to stop them before getting
attacked. I know a group of cyclist that were always
harassed by a very mean dog, several were bitten and nothing
would stop this dog. It happened in rural area where local
law enforcement could or would not do anything. They would
try to time their encounter by luring him to run across the
road in front of oncoming traffic. Personally, I would have
just shot him.

I love dogs, have 3 now and have had dogs all my life, but
I have no use for a dog that will bite or attack people.
They are not a creature you can reason with, they
understand force.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:31:15 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs
are completely faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault
for being in the wrong place at the wrong time", "he's
harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog would
never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your
leg). Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

To be fair, it is a little hard to fault the dog when
you consider how incredibly socially retarded the
average dog owner is.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet.
Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not be the
case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation frequently
overtakes, kills and eats humans. Water doesn't "shock"
wild animals very much.

Yes, feral dog packs are something else altogether, and
nothing I'd want to encounter (although i have seen them
from a distance, chasing deer down.) A pack of dogs can be
so overwhelming, I wouldn't know whether water, ammonia,
firecrackers or small arms would afford much of a defense
from them.

A couple of decades ago, somebody had the bright idea of
setting some 'wild' Black Forest boars loose in the upper
Fraser Valley in British Columbia. They tree'd a fair number
of hikers. I don't think squirting stuff at them would have
backed them off, either. Except maybe barbecue sauce ;-)

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not
malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a
bicyclist is wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the
owner is not willing to take responsibility for the safety
(whether the threat is real or not) of others, I have no
problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little
choice in the matter. If the instinct is strong enough, no
amount of your "correction" is going to stop it. The way we
train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:58 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox

Communications said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work
you probably won't have time for another option. I prefer
to use a more effective way to stop them before getting
attacked.

You likely won't be attacked if the water plan fails, which
I have never seen happen. But, if you want a plan B, I
suggest improving your sprint.

I'll say it again: If I ever see someone spraying ammonia on
a dog, I'm calling the cops and reporting it and seeing it
through to the end. Obviously, _you_ don't have to worry
about that.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:29 +0800, Michael J. Klein

from DCI HiNet said:

In other words, let the government take care of it, once
again. Man, I hate the socialist agenda. How about the
Citizen remove the threat by taking personal
responsibility?

You are a right wing kook.

*plonk*

That is some political slur. I do not involve myself in
politics because of people like you. Michael J. Klein
[email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

di said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work
you probably won't have time for another option. I prefer
to use a more effective way to stop them before getting
attacked. I know a group of cyclist that were always
harassed by a very mean dog, several were bitten and
nothing would stop this dog. It happened in rural area
where local law enforcement could or would not do anything.
They would try to time their encounter by luring him to run
across the road in front of oncoming traffic. Personally, I
would have just shot him.

I love dogs, have 3 now and have had dogs all my life, but
I have no use for a dog that will bite or attack people.
They are not a creature you can reason with, they
understand force.

Not to mention that, if previously domesticated, they have
no fear of humans whatsoever and are even more dangerous
that any indigenous animal.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:58 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]>

from Cox Communications said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message > >>

Quoted message said:

>
>Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to
>determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

>chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn
to freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't
work you probably won't have time for another option. I
prefer to use a more effective way to stop them before
getting attacked.

You likely won't be attacked if the water plan fails, which
I have never seen happen. But, if you want a plan B, I
suggest improving your sprint.

I'll say it again: If I ever see someone spraying ammonia
on a dog, I'm calling the cops and reporting it and seeing
it through to the end. Obviously, _you_ don't have to worry
about that.

Neither do I Kevan. People don't rely on cops here - they
take care of their own business (a concept foreign to
socialists).

As difficult as this may seem to you Kevan, no one requires
your permission or approval. No one.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell
<[email hidden]> from BellSouth Internet

Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not
malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a
bicyclist is wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the
owner is not willing to take responsibility for the safety
(whether the threat is real or not) of others, I have no
problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little
choice in the matter. If the instinct is strong enough, no
amount of your "correction" is going to stop it. The way we
train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

That goes right along with the other socialist agenda -
that one's

to accept other's *judgements* but left to their own
instinct.

So, we let dogs bite people, and pedophiles abuse
children, right?

Kevan, I have come to the inalterable conclusion that you
are gay. Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen,
Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:42:53 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's
pet. Depending upon where one lives, that may or may not
be the case. Where I live, the wild dog popluation
frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans. Water
doesn't "shock" wild animals very much.

Yes, feral dog packs are something else altogether, and
nothing I'd want to encounter (although i have seen them
from a distance, chasing deer down.) A pack of dogs can be
so overwhelming, I wouldn't know whether water, ammonia,
firecrackers or small arms would afford much of a defense
from them.

I snapped a pic of some once, roaming the streets in south
Taiwan (I just reviewed the photographs of that time, and I
have 2 shots of the wild dogs). My host suggested that I get
back in the car as the previous week an eldery woman had
been killed and eaten by them.

Quoted message said:

A couple of decades ago, somebody had the bright idea of
setting some 'wild' Black Forest boars loose in the upper
Fraser Valley in British Columbia. They tree'd a fair
number of hikers. I don't think squirting stuff at them
would have backed them off, either. Except maybe barbecue
sauce ;-)

hahaha! Dunno what they were thinking huh?

Back when I lived in the US, I was walking my dog, who was a
rescued animal. She was very nervous and didn't like to be
approached by other dogs. One night it was pitch black (as
it often is in NH) and I heard 2 things - growling and
toenails on pavement - the neighbor's dog had gotten loose
and was running towards my dog at full spee!. I had my right
hand on my 9mm and was just about to draw when the dog
suddenly stopped dead in its tracks and turned around.

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it to be so.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden] Dasi Jen, Taoyuan
Hsien, Taiwan, ROC Please replace mousepotato with
asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

di' from Cox Communications said:

Quoted message said:

Kevan wrote: You're going from chasing to biting. If a
dog is biting you, sure, defend yourself. Spraying a
chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs
just do it for play, not to commit harm. And, as I said,
a simple spray of water stops them. I have seen it work
many times.

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine
if it's merely a chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to
freakin' read.

Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about
mixing a LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a
better suggestion? I'm not a fast rider, and just about any
dog larger than a toy poodle can easily catch me. I can do a
good enough angry bear imitation to scare off most dogs, but
it doesn't work when I'm on my bike.

--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------------------
"The primary purpose of any government entity is to employ
the unemployable."

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ Aside from all the legal, ethical and moral
questions, I question the practicality of carrying a water
pistol loaded with ammonia. Ammonia evaporates, so how long
would a batch remain effective? And, wouldn't you likely
smell like old urine?

Aside: I recall once while riding a motorcycle, having a
"viscious" dog rush out after me. I could easily have outrun
him, but, out of curiosity, I stopped. (I was wearing boots,
so I wasn't too worried about being bitten. I spoiled the
poor dog's game. He stopped, wagged his tail, growled,
wagged his tail, sniffed my leg, and just didn't know what
to do. As I rode off, he just watched me.

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Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell
<[email hidden]> from BellSouth Internet

Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not
malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a
bicyclist is wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the
owner is not willing to take responsibility for the safety
(whether the threat is real or not) of others, I have no
problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little
choice in the matter. If the instinct is strong enough, no
amount of your "correction" is going to stop it. The way
we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more
positive directions.

I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that
negative reinforcement (correction) is inappropriate.
Meditate on the primary defence of skunks and porcupines
and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
stop an instinctive behavior.

Mark

- --
Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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In article <[email hidden]>,

(Tom Keats) said:

I invite you to kick at a skunk the next time one whiffs
at your shoes. I've got one here. I've named her
'Sundown', after the Gordon Lightfoot song. Haven't seen
her for a few days, 'cuz she's having babies.

When i was a young thailor living in orlando, i visited a
pet shop in kissmee that sold de-stunk skunk babies. They
were the cutest li'l things and i schemed for weeks on how
to keep one in my barracks room.

ob.bike: most of my trasport was via bicycle back then.

.max "how fortunate for her that i am me"

--
the part of <[email hidden]> was played by maxwell
monningh 8-p

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it
to be so.

Kevan's all right. He can be loud about stuff, but it's
often counter-loudness when there isn't enough voices to
balance a discussion.

And whether one agrees with him or no, his argument-points
always boil down to having a heart.

And I'm pretty sure he's not gay. Neither am I (if that
matters.) Sometimes I might put on the dog, just to disturb
and scare off anti-bike trolls that occasionally crop-up in
this newsgroup.

If anybody really bugs you, just tell them you love
them. They'll disappear into the woodwork like gas
station washrooom cockroaches when you turn the light
on. Then it's clear sailing after that. Until the next
time. Then it's just a matter of starting over. Kind of
like weeding a garden.

Kevan'a kind of like a weed (wildflower) that ya wanna keep
because it fills a niche -- one that needs filling.

He also knows stuff about fixed-gear bikes.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it
to be so.

Kevan's all right. He can be loud about stuff, but it's
often counter-loudness when there isn't enough voices to
balance a discussion.

And whether one agrees with him or no, his argument-points
always boil down to having a heart.

And I'm pretty sure he's not gay. Neither am I (if that
matters.) Sometimes I might put on the dog, just to disturb
and scare off anti-bike trolls that occasionally crop-up in
this newsgroup.

If anybody really bugs you, just tell them you love them.
They'll disappear into the woodwork like gas station
washrooom cockroaches when you turn the light on. Then
it's clear sailing after that. Until the next time. Then
it's just a matter of starting over. Kind of like weeding
a garden.

Kevan'a kind of like a weed (wildflower) that ya wanna keep
because it fills a niche -- one that needs filling.

He also knows stuff about fixed-gear bikes.

cheers, Tom

Well, as a result of this thread and some thinking
overnight, I believe I've come up with the perfect dog
counter-measure.

It's silent, instantaneous, quick to deploy, extremely
accurate, and should easily escape detection of its use by
the dog owner, and should do no permanent harm to the
offending dog. It's also effective on all dogs, unlike the
sonic devices, or heh, a squirt of water.

Other methods might be available, but IMO if the dog owner
detects your use it could leave you open to retribution or
other undesireable actions.

-Badger

John said:

You say this was in Detroit? Then you're lucky to be
alive...regardless of the firecrackers or your bicycle.

**Metro** Detroit. I have ridden in the city (when I
worked for them last year) and had no problems; folks
were friendly, waving and hollering "hi!" at me. No
attmepted physical assaults and no hostile screaming.
This was in Westland, a middle-class suburb just north of
Metro Airport. I have never had so many shouts of
"sidewalk!" as here.

--Karen M.