Firecrackers!

In article <[email hidden]>,

(James S. Prine) said:

Quoted message said:

Anyways, screw weapons!

A strange way to end what had been an intelligent and reasonable opinion about
dogs, etc.

Not necessarily. Weapons do much more harm than good.
The last thing this world needs is to be turned into
an arsenal. The first thing it needs is a global
block party.

As for weapons, it seems to me the average civilian
(such as myself) who might once in a blue moon need
'em, can't use 'em. All possessing a weapon does is
add to the inventory. Oh, I've killed my share of
upland fowl, and other delicious life forms such
as various salmonids. I've never feared for my life
from pheasants or grouse or trout, though. I also
used to be into muzzle-loader, black powder target stuff.
That wasn't weapon-oriented either; that was just about
the sport of trying to shoot a 5-shot one-holer in paper
at 100 yards w/ open sights -- which at one time in my
youth, I was actually able to approach.

In my previous post I mentioned how some folks might think:
'a dog is a dog is a dog'. Up here in Canada, a gun is a
gun is a gun, and they're all 'weapons'. So a li'l
single-shot, swingable, slightly-modified-choked 4/10 is
equiv to an M-16. But I've grown out of all that [censored]
anyway (but not my taste for roast pheasant, or a mess
of pan-fried brook trout for breakfast.)

And the people who actually want weapons, don't really
need 'em. And a lot of those people IMO /shouldn't/
have 'em.

I just think it's better to concentrate more on helpin'
rather than hurtin'.

klahowya,
Tom

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Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a bicyclist is
wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the owner is not willing to take
responsibility for the safety (whether the threat is real or not) of
others, I have no problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that negative reinforcement
(correction) is inappropriate. Meditate on the primary defence of skunks
and porcupines and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
stop an instinctive behavior.

Mark

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark Mitchell said:

I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that negative reinforcement
(correction) is inappropriate. Meditate on the primary defence of skunks
and porcupines and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
stop an instinctive behavior.

Porcupines and skunks are such sociable critters.
They don't set out to maliciously inflict barbs or
stinks on anyone. Au contraire. They don't require
'correction'. just because they have a defense, doesn't
mean they're gonna use it as an offense, until they have to.
What's really sad is, often they seek out human interaction
and conversation and dialog, and they end up with hostility
and fear instead. Same with domestic dogs.

Since you disagree that 'negative reinforcement, or "correction"'
is inappropriate (wow, what a compound negative), I invite
you to kick at a skunk the next time one whiffs at your shoes.
I've got one here. I've named her 'Sundown', after the Gordon
Lightfoot song. Haven't seen her for a few days, 'cuz she's
having babies. But she'll re-emerge, and when she and her brood
does, I'd hope they'd take a liking to you.

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In article <[email hidden]>,

(Tom Keats) said:

I invite
you to kick at a skunk the next time one whiffs at your shoes.
I've got one here. I've named her 'Sundown', after the Gordon
Lightfoot song. Haven't seen her for a few days, 'cuz she's
having babies.

When i was a young thailor living in orlando, i visited a pet shop in
kissmee that sold de-stunk skunk babies. They were the cutest li'l
things and i schemed for weeks on how to keep one in my barracks room.

ob.bike: most of my trasport was via bicycle back then.

..max
"how fortunate for her that i am me"

--
the part of <[email hidden]>
was played by maxwell monningh 8-p

Quoted message said:

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
stop it.

Protecting myself from a dangerous dog is my instinct and I also have little
control in the matter.

The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive

Quoted message said:

directions.

Would have replied sooner but couldnt stop laughing at this statement.
WTF is that supposed to mean?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it to be so.

Kevan's all right. He can be loud about stuff, but it's
often counter-loudness when there isn't enough voices to
balance a discussion.

And whether one agrees with him or no, his argument-points
always boil down to having a heart.

And I'm pretty sure he's not gay. Neither am I
(if that matters.) Sometimes I might put on the dog,
just to disturb and scare off anti-bike trolls that
occasionally crop-up in this newsgroup.

If anybody really bugs you, just tell them you love them.
They'll disappear into the woodwork like gas station
washrooom cockroaches when you turn the light on. Then
it's clear sailing after that. Until the next time.
Then it's just a matter of starting over. Kind of like
weeding a garden.

Kevan'a kind of like a weed (wildflower) that ya wanna
keep because it fills a niche -- one that needs filling.

He also knows stuff about fixed-gear bikes.

cheers,
Tom

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Max said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Tom Keats) said:

I invite
you to kick at a skunk the next time one whiffs at your shoes.
I've got one here. I've named her 'Sundown', after the Gordon
Lightfoot song. Haven't seen her for a few days, 'cuz she's
having babies.

When i was a young thailor living in orlando, i visited a pet shop in
kissmee that sold de-stunk skunk babies. They were the cutest li'l
things and i schemed for weeks on how to keep one in my barracks room.

That would seem to be about the time you were cured
of your lithp.

Anyhow, skunks do have claws like garden rakes.
Great for tearing furniture apart whilst seeking
grubs. In that light, skunks are like literary
artists you don't mind talking to, but don't
necessarily want in your house.

Quoted message said:

ob.bike: most of my trasport was via bicycle back then.

A skunk tethered to a parked bike might be worth a
all kinds of other security measures.

cheers,
Tom

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(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it to be so.

Kevan's all right. He can be loud about stuff, but it's
often counter-loudness when there isn't enough voices to
balance a discussion.

And whether one agrees with him or no, his argument-points
always boil down to having a heart.

And I'm pretty sure he's not gay. Neither am I
(if that matters.) Sometimes I might put on the dog,
just to disturb and scare off anti-bike trolls that
occasionally crop-up in this newsgroup.

If anybody really bugs you, just tell them you love them.
They'll disappear into the woodwork like gas station
washrooom cockroaches when you turn the light on. Then
it's clear sailing after that. Until the next time.
Then it's just a matter of starting over. Kind of like
weeding a garden.

Kevan'a kind of like a weed (wildflower) that ya wanna
keep because it fills a niche -- one that needs filling.

He also knows stuff about fixed-gear bikes.

cheers,
Tom

Well, as a result of this thread and some thinking overnight, I believe
I've come up with the perfect dog counter-measure.

It's silent, instantaneous, quick to deploy, extremely accurate, and should
easily escape detection of its use by the dog owner, and should do no
permanent harm to the offending dog. It's also effective on all dogs,
unlike the sonic devices, or heh, a squirt of water.

Other methods might be available, but IMO if the dog owner detects your use
it could leave you open to retribution or other undesireable actions.

-Badger

John said:

You say this was in Detroit? Then you're lucky to be
alive...regardless of the firecrackers or your bicycle.

**Metro** Detroit. I have ridden in the city (when I worked for
them last year) and had no problems; folks were friendly, waving and
hollering "hi!" at me. No attmepted physical assaults and no hostile
screaming.
This was in Westland, a middle-class suburb just north of Metro
Airport. I have never had so many shouts of "sidewalk!" as here.

--Karen M.

Michael J. Klein misquoted me thus:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Karen M.) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
I've been thinking about picking up some of these to deal with dogs.
Of course trying to light an explosive while dealing with traffic and
dogs doesn't sound like too good of an idea, but I doubt it's much
harder than trying to aim a can of Halt at 20mph.

I did not write the above paragraph.

--Karen M.

Badger_South said:

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree, it's not cool to
use concentrated ammonia on animals for any reason....

Er, OP is moi, and my thread is about FIRECRACKERS, not dogs nor ammonia.

--Karen M.,

Claire said:

This story made me recall how someone threw a firecracker at my while I was
on my bike when I was about nine or ten years old. I was *so* frightened
from it. I rode to my friend's house which was only four more houses down
the street, and basically stepped over their threshold and burst into sobs.
Her mom was really nice to me, and helped me feel better. It's mean to throw
firecrackers at anyone, but at a kid is even worse. I had completely
forgotten that incident until reading this posting.

Karen, you don't have a friend's mom to give you hugs, probably, so I'll
give you some of my virtual ones.

You're a dear!
I wasn't scared, just mightily PO'ed at these jerks and intent on
getting them stopped before they try it again and hurt someone.

--Karen M.
eager for Independence Day to get here and be gone!

(Karen M.) said:

Badger_South said:

OK, having read the OP's 'dangers of ammonia', I agree, it's not cool to
use concentrated ammonia on animals for any reason....

Er, OP is moi, and my thread is about FIRECRACKERS, not dogs nor ammonia.

--Karen M.,

Correct. Apologies, KM.

-B

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:57:54 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

It's silent, instantaneous, quick to deploy, extremely accurate, and should
easily escape detection of its use by the dog owner, and should do no
permanent harm to the offending dog. It's also effective on all dogs,
unlike the sonic devices, or heh, a squirt of water.

You're gonna fart on the animal? 🙂

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:35:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats) from

Quoted message said:

Chasing is one thing, but viciously attacking is quite another.

And I have never claimed the two to be the same.

The original post I responded to suggested spraying ammonia on dogs that
merely chase. The whole attacking notion came from people who got their
panties all up in a knot over my response.

If you are attacked by a dog, do defend yourself. If you think you'll have the
time and accuracy to squirt a dog with ammonia while being attacked, you're
welcome to try, but I think you'll be better off using your bike as both
shield and club.

However, chasing is not attacking. Chasing is just following. And usually,
chasing bikes is meant to be play, not attack. Even the dogs that look like
they are going to attack are usually going to abandon the chase when you leave
their territory.

If people learned more about dogs, they would be less fearful of them.
--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith said:

di' from Cox Communications said:

>Kevan wrote:
> You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting you, sure, defend
> yourself. Spraying a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
> merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for play,
> not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I
> have seen it work many times.

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely a
chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about mixing a
LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a better suggestion?

Ammonia eats away flesh. It's a caustic solution. That's why it blinds. Even a
little bit is harmful.

If you insist on a spray, jalapeno juice (not pickled) inflames nerve endings
to cause pain, but it is otherwise harmless. It's cheaper than pepper spray,
too.

Do you have a size limit? I mean, if a Chihuahua were chasing you bent on
attack, would you spray it with ammonia as readily as you might a pit bull? Or
how about a friendliness limit -- say, a beautiful Golden Retriever, among the
gentlest of dogs, were chasing you and barking, would you spray it with a
caustic solution?

If you are looking for a really humane solution to the dog chasing problem, I
can think of three really good ones: 1) outrace the dog, or 2) learn to make
dog friends, or 3) don't ride in that area.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.

A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that negative reinforcement
(correction) is inappropriate. Meditate on the primary defence of skunks
and porcupines and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
stop an instinctive behavior.

I've seen some dogs go after skunks time and again no matter how much they get
sprayed. In fact, dogs love rolling in awful smells. Skunk spray, to them, can
be a badge of honor. Further, neither skunk spray nor porcupine quills are
generally harmful in the long run.

Sure, enough training changes instinctive behavior into other areas, but the
instinct remains. In terms of the chasing instinct, your one spray with the
ammonia bottle would be enough to blind and maim the dog, but it's not nearly
enough training time to change the instinctual behavior.
--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

I've heard that a little whack on the nose with a water bottle will do
the trick. BTW, wasn't this supposed to be about firecrackers?

--

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you are looking for a really humane solution to the dog chasing

problem, I

Quoted message said:

can think of three really good ones: 1) outrace the dog,

While this may be possible for you, someone else may not have the physical
ability, or even the desire, to do this.

or 2) learn to make

Quoted message said:

dog friends,

Not everyone wants dog friends and besides, not all dogs are friendly.

or 3) don't ride in that area.

I have a right to ride in any area I want; the dog does not have the right
to chase me.

It seems so simple to me. The dog's owner has the responsibility to keep
his dog out of the street. If he can't or won't do it and his dog attacks
someone, he, and the dog, must suffer the consequences.

If a strange dog runs up to you barking and growling, how are you going to
know if he's just "chasing" and not attacking, until it's too late. I don't
want to get bit or knocked off my bike.

Although I would never advocate using ammonia or any other caustic or
poisonous substances on a chasing dog, I do think pepper spray is a good
idea. It will cause no permanent damage to the dog and may teach both the
dog and owner a valuable lesson.

Dave

Kevan Smith said:

However, chasing is not attacking. Chasing is just following. And usually,
chasing bikes is meant to be play, not attack. Even the dogs that look like
they are going to attack are usually going to abandon the chase when you leave
their territory.

If people learned more about dogs, they would be less fearful of them.

And there are a whole lot of dogs that will nip when chasing, friendly
or not (I have an Aussie that will do it if you get her herding
instincts flowing). Nipping a cyclist can cripple. I actually know
more cyclists that had permanent (two cases) and semi-permanent (five
cases IIRC) damage from dogs nipping the heel than I know people that
had serious injury from the oft-discussed helmet issues.

IMO a person that can take action against a chaser, should. This is a
dog, whether friendly or not, that can take out another cyclist if not
curbed. Its enough that the dog chases - if the cyclist ends up off
the road and injured from their reaction, it is irrelevant whether or
not the dog was friendly. (I had a Doberman owner with three
free-running Dobs tell me that his Dobs were 'friendly' and I was
overreacting to the 200 plus pounds of dog and teeth - he got to tell
the same story to the Maryland State trooper who seemed to have my
opinion of the mutts.Never saw those dogs outside again.)

And I worked at a vet for three years and have owned a lot of dogs
myself. I know dogs better than most - I'm one of those people that
they call a dog person, where even unfriendly dogs come up to me
wagging their tails - but the only people worse than those that know
nothing about dogs are those that assume they can read every dog that
comes up the pike. I've had my share of stitches from dogs that both I
and the vets misread (actually both thumbs have scars up their side
from 30 plus years ago). And some large breeds are known for making no
overt sign until they strike.

Don't assume the Akita is just chasing for fun. You'll have about two
seconds for your decision-making if you treat it as a chase (I think
that was my left thumb, to the bone).

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...