Firecrackers!

H. M. Leary said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:59:43 +0800, Michael J. Klein <[email hidden]>

from DCI HiNet said:

You're making assumptions. What works best is firing the ammonia
directly down which puts a spot of foul smelling stuff between
whatever is chasing you, and you.

That's BS. You're just trying to appear less an ass than you already do. You
would spray the ammonia on the dog.

Quoted message said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet. Depending
upon where one lives, that may or may not be the case. Where I live,
the wild dog popluation frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.

A dingo ate your heart, apparently.

Anyway, if you live in an area like that, you'd obviously be better off not
riding your bike there. And, if the dogs are such a danger, I am sure there
are organized efforts you can join to cull the population humanely.

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

Mr. Klein lives in Taiwan, Ibelieve.

Correct. It even says so in my sig. Amazing what one can learn from
a sigline, isn't it? Its also more amazing what one fails to learn
from informationn clearly presented (and I'm not referring to you Mr.
Leary).

Quoted message said:

There, dog is a fine meal eaten by humans.

I have a story about that. In Asia, its common to have a picture of
the type of animal that a restaurant serves, like a chicken, duck or
cow, for example. One day my wife and I were driving along and I
suggested that we get some German Shepard for lunch as I pointed to a
sign with a picture of that type of dog. She punched me in th arm and
told me that was a guard dog training school!

The Taiwanese do not eat dogs as do other Asian people (and some
Africans). I have eaten many different animals in my travels around
but never dog.

Quoted message said:

Only fair that a dog gets a chance at eating a humane....)

What a beautiful day here on the east coast. Why am I stuck mowing the lawn,
triming the hedge cutting down a dead tree, etc etc etc..

I could be RIDING!

Can it wait until tomorrow? lol
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

Pat' from said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see anyone spraying

ammonia

Quoted message said:

on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the case through the
courts to make sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia on

a

Quoted message said:

chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the animal enough to

make

Quoted message said:

it give up the chase. I have seen this work time after time.

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith

Two things: One, people ARE allowed to defend themselves against attackers,
whether they be humans or animals. and, Two, people are not bound by what
one Kevan Smith thinks is or is not acceptable self defense.

Well, no [censored]. I'm glad you stepped up on your teensy sopabox to advocate
torturing dogs.

You don't need to ride Kevan. You get enough exercise jumping to
conclusions.

Quoted message said:

BTW, spraying a chasing dog with ammonia is NOT self defense.

<yawn> Burn me a CD.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

Frankly, though, I think you are lying.

That's usually what stupid people say when confronted by a statement
they cannot imagine to be true. Smart people check the facts and then
make rebuttals, if possible.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/08/0821_030821_straydogs.html
OMG, they mention Taiwan, and its a US news story!

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/archives/2000/08/05/0000046511
"Three years ago the stray population was estimated at 75,000, and
last year it was 54,000, he said. This year the number is roughly
18,000."

http://www.lonelocust.com/travel/TaiwanSingapore/Taiwan3.htm
" First we caught the [Taipei Rapid Transit], then we took off on
foot. We were moving at a rapid clip, but then a pack of wild dogs set
upon us. We left Jeff for dead, fighting off the dogs." - written by
private Citizens in Taiwan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's enough to establish the point. If you are interested you may
do your own search.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:06:30 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox

Communications said:

Quoted message said:

You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting you, sure, defend
yourself. Spraying a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for

play,

Quoted message said:

not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I

have

Quoted message said:

seen it work many times.

--
Kevan Smith

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely a
chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:29 +0800, Michael J. Klein <[email hidden]>

from DCI HiNet said:

In other words, let the government take care of it, once again. Man,
I hate the socialist agenda. How about the Citizen remove the threat
by taking personal responsibility?

You are a right wing kook.

*plonk*

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kevan Smith said:

On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, [email hidden] (GABIKE) from AOL

urlhttp://www.aol.com/url said:

Quoted message said:

Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see anyone spraying ammonia
on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the case through the
courts to make sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia on a
chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the animal enough to make
it give up the chase. I have seen this work time after time.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your rear end.

A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually instinct or play.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a bicyclist is
wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the owner is not willing to take
responsibility for the safety (whether the threat is real or not) of
others, I have no problem correcting the dog myself.

I agree with Kevan that ammonia is probably inappropriate, but a teaspoon
of vinegar in a pint of water will be sufficiently unpleasant to deter the
dog while having a minimal danger of causing serious health problems for
the dog.

Mark

- --
Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFA1kNhLVmEOl6/PWERAoxJAJ0Y9PQSnIwmjVytZUXm4JGUXbwk9gCfYsmc
/ph7yCfxSbac0pEuFljlNvg=
=YA/W
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work you probably
won't have time for another option. I prefer to use a more effective way to
stop them before getting attacked. I know a group of cyclist that were
always harassed by a very mean dog, several were bitten and nothing would
stop this dog. It happened in rural area where local law enforcement could
or would not do anything. They would try to time their encounter by luring
him to run across the road in front of oncoming traffic. Personally, I
would have just shot him.

I love dogs, have 3 now and have had dogs all my life, but I have no use
for a dog that will bite or attack people. They are not a creature you
can reason with, they understand force.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:31:15 -0400, Badger_South <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But it's true, eveyone seems to side with the dogs; dogs are completely
faultless, "if you get bit it's your fault for being in the wrong place at
the wrong time", "he's harmless", "he's never done that before", "my dog
would never bite you" (while watching the dog chow down on your leg).
Perhaps we -should- spray the owners. ;-)

To be fair, it is a little hard to fault the dog when you consider
how incredibly socially retarded the average dog owner is.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a bicyclist is
wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the owner is not willing to take
responsibility for the safety (whether the threat is real or not) of
others, I have no problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:58 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox

Communications said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work you probably
won't have time for another option. I prefer to use a more effective way to
stop them before getting attacked.

You likely won't be attacked if the water plan fails, which I have never seen
happen. But, if you want a plan B, I suggest improving your sprint.

I'll say it again: If I ever see someone spraying ammonia on a dog, I'm
calling the cops and reporting it and seeing it through to the end. Obviously,
_you_ don't have to worry about that.

--
Kevan Smith
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet. Depending
upon where one lives, that may or may not be the case. Where I live,
the wild dog popluation frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.
Water doesn't "shock" wild animals very much.

Yes, feral dog packs are something else altogether, and nothing I'd
want to encounter (although i have seen them from a distance, chasing
deer down.) A pack of dogs can be so overwhelming, I wouldn't know
whether water, ammonia, firecrackers or small arms would afford
much of a defense from them.

A couple of decades ago, somebody had the bright idea of
setting some 'wild' Black Forest boars loose in the upper
Fraser Valley in British Columbia. They tree'd a fair
number of hikers. I don't think squirting stuff at them
would have backed them off, either. Except maybe
barbecue sauce ;-)

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:55:29 +0800, Michael J. Klein <[email hidden]>

from DCI HiNet said:

In other words, let the government take care of it, once again. Man,
I hate the socialist agenda. How about the Citizen remove the threat
by taking personal responsibility?

You are a right wing kook.

*plonk*

That is some political slur. I do not involve myself in politics
because of people like you.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

di said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work you probably
won't have time for another option. I prefer to use a more effective way to
stop them before getting attacked. I know a group of cyclist that were
always harassed by a very mean dog, several were bitten and nothing would
stop this dog. It happened in rural area where local law enforcement could
or would not do anything. They would try to time their encounter by luring
him to run across the road in front of oncoming traffic. Personally, I
would have just shot him.

I love dogs, have 3 now and have had dogs all my life, but I have no use
for a dog that will bite or attack people. They are not a creature you
can reason with, they understand force.

Not to mention that, if previously domesticated, they have no fear of
humans whatsoever and are even more dangerous that any indigenous
animal.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:41:58 -0500, "di" <[email hidden]> from Cox

Communications said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >>

Quoted message said:

>
>Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely

a

Quoted message said:

>chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

I can read and also reason, if your water plan doesn't work you probably
won't have time for another option. I prefer to use a more effective way to
stop them before getting attacked.

You likely won't be attacked if the water plan fails, which I have never seen
happen. But, if you want a plan B, I suggest improving your sprint.

I'll say it again: If I ever see someone spraying ammonia on a dog, I'm
calling the cops and reporting it and seeing it through to the end. Obviously,
_you_ don't have to worry about that.

Neither do I Kevan. People don't rely on cops here - they take care
of their own business (a concept foreign to socialists).

As difficult as this may seem to you Kevan, no one requires your
permission or approval. No one.

Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

Kevan Smith said:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 01:58:57 GMT, Mark Mitchell

from BellSouth Internet Group said:

And a child throwing rocks/snowballs at cars is not malicious. It is usually play.

It is wrong though. In the same way that a dog chasing a bicyclist is
wrong. And it should be discouraged. If the owner is not willing to take
responsibility for the safety (whether the threat is real or not) of
others, I have no problem correcting the dog myself.

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

That goes right along with the other socialist agenda - that one's
sexual orientation is what it is, and that peple shouldn't be forced
to accept other's *judgements* but left to their own instinct.

So, we let dogs bite people, and pedophiles abuse children, right?

Kevan, I have come to the inalterable conclusion that you are gay.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:42:53 -0700, [email hidden] (Tom Keats)

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael J. Klein said:

Another assumption is that a chasing dog is someone's pet. Depending
upon where one lives, that may or may not be the case. Where I live,
the wild dog popluation frequently overtakes, kills and eats humans.
Water doesn't "shock" wild animals very much.

Yes, feral dog packs are something else altogether, and nothing I'd
want to encounter (although i have seen them from a distance, chasing
deer down.) A pack of dogs can be so overwhelming, I wouldn't know
whether water, ammonia, firecrackers or small arms would afford
much of a defense from them.

I snapped a pic of some once, roaming the streets in south Taiwan (I
just reviewed the photographs of that time, and I have 2 shots of the
wild dogs). My host suggested that I get back in the car as the
previous week an eldery woman had been killed and eaten by them.

Quoted message said:

A couple of decades ago, somebody had the bright idea of
setting some 'wild' Black Forest boars loose in the upper
Fraser Valley in British Columbia. They tree'd a fair
number of hikers. I don't think squirting stuff at them
would have backed them off, either. Except maybe
barbecue sauce ;-)

hahaha! Dunno what they were thinking huh?

Back when I lived in the US, I was walking my dog, who was a rescued
animal. She was very nervous and didn't like to be approached by
other dogs. One night it was pitch black (as it often is in NH) and I
heard 2 things - growling and toenails on pavement - the neighbor's
dog had gotten loose and was running towards my dog at full spee!. I
had my right hand on my 9mm and was just about to draw when the dog
suddenly stopped dead in its tracks and turned around.

I can only conclude that Kevin must have willed it to be so.
Michael J. Klein [email hidden]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevan Smith said:

A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
directions.

Chasing is one thing, but viciously attacking is quite another.
whenever vicious pit bulls, rottweillers, etc attack, maul
or even kill citizens, it gets a lot of media attention, and
rightly so. Especially when the dogs' owners are named.

But maybe all that media attention colours people's notions
about dogs in general. Nothing like the media to stir up
a seething pot of paranoia and fear. Sometimes (albeit
relatively rarely), it's justified. But in most cases where
vicious dogs have seriously hurt or even killed people, I
doubt any sort of weaponry would have helped anyway, because
it seems to me, most of those victims were in a state of panic,
and generally have been children and smaller women. I'm not
saying children and women are incapable of protecting
themselves -- just that those seem to be the size of people
that vicious dogs tend to go after.

It helps to know the difference between a nippy li'l border
collie that wants to herd you, a wolf-y type dog (like
samoyeds and huskies) that just wants to tag along with you,
and a bloodthirsty pair of pit bulls with a hair up their
collective ass about killing something. And, as Ron Hardin
previously mentioned, to be able to read their body language.
Unfortunately, not everybody can, and I'm not so sure they
should be expected to. I guess to some folks, a dog is a dog
is a (vicious) dog.

Anyways, screw weapons!

klahowya,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Quoted message said:

Anyways, screw weapons!

A strange way to end what had been an intelligent and reasonable opinion about
dogs, etc.

James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

Kevan Smith said:

di' from Cox Communications said:

Quoted message said:

Kevan wrote:
You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting you, sure, defend
yourself. Spraying a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for play,
not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I
have seen it work many times.

Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely a
chase or bite?

No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about mixing a
LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a better suggestion? I'm
not a fast rider, and just about any dog larger than a toy poodle can
easily catch me. I can do a good enough angry bear imitation to scare
off most dogs, but it doesn't work when I'm on my bike.

--
Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------
"The primary purpose of any government entity
is to employ the unemployable."

Ammonia is a caustic substance that can blind you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aside from all the legal, ethical and moral questions, I question the
practicality of carrying a water pistol loaded with ammonia. Ammonia
evaporates, so how long would a batch remain effective? And, wouldn't you
likely smell like old urine?

Aside: I recall once while riding a motorcycle, having a "viscious" dog
rush out after me. I could easily have outrun him, but, out of curiosity, I
stopped. (I was wearing boots, so I wasn't too worried about being bitten.
I spoiled the poor dog's game. He stopped, wagged his tail, growled, wagged
his tail, sniffed my leg, and just didn't know what to do. As I rode off,
he just watched me.