Fell off

in message <[email hidden]>, James Annan

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

So place a plank on its edge on the floor, clamping it so that it
can't fall over, and stand on that. Yes, I have done it. Yes, you (or
at least I) can balance on it just as easily. If you won't try the
empirical experiment then we really are arguing about angels and
pinheads.

Ok, let's walk through this very slowly, one point at a time.

You can balance on a plank edge, but not on a bicycle with fork fixed
straight ahead (I think we probably agree it doesn't matter much
whether the bicycle is rolling or stationary). Can you identify the
significant difference(s) between the two cases?

Yes. I don't have a bicycle with its steering fixed straight ahead, so I
can't verify it. I do have a blank, and I have tried that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is simply getting silly. Get out on a bike and ride it, no
hands, and then come back with an explanation of how you initiated a
'counter steer'. If, as you say, a turn cannot be initiated without
counter steer, then, no hands, the counter steer cannot be initiated
either;

That is simply nonsense. It is easy to explain how countersteering
works with hands-free riding. Going from straight ahead into a right
turn: tip the bike to the left, and rider to the right (combined CoG
will not move significantly).

Fine. Having done that, what makes it impossible to continue to turn
_to_ _the_ _left_?

Quoted message said:

Since you claim to be able to do this, it is not clear why you do not
believe you can also do it in the case where the bicycle is
constrained to run in a straight line. In that case, you have less far
to go to get back on top of the contact patch, which must make it
easier. So why is it somehow harder?

It is still raining here. I cannot get clear photographs this morning. I
shall post photographs as soon as possible. But it really would be
easier if you would just get out on your bike and try it.

JPEGs, as they say, or retract. Have no doubt that I shall post mine.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
;; life a tiny bit.

Dave Larrington said:

the.Mark said:

I was wondering what the bus lanes were for if the cars just use them
when they feel like it. Tonight I saw a police car following all the
other drivers into it like they were sheep.

On the way home last night, after 7 pm when most of the bus lanes revert to
being unbus lanes, /no-one/ was using them except cyclists and buses. I'm
just a primitive creature of the heath, so excuse my savage ignorance, but
how do people with that level of inability to read basic road signs manage
to get driving licences?

See, this is the thing. When there's lots of traffic, is when the lanes
aren't allowed to be used by cars etc - cos you can't all fit in the
'non-bus' lane. But when traffic is light, there's ample room in that
'non-bus' lane, so why tangle with the cyclists/buses - no point, might
as well stay where you were to start with - it avoids conflict with
cyclists etc who presumably would still be using the lane.

I believe this is the reason why bus lanes infuriate so many motorists -
and to be honest, I *know* why bus lanes are there, but there seems no
reason why they shouldn't be 24 hour, other than the fact that out of
hours you can park in a bus lane (or some of them).

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

See, this is the thing. When there's lots of traffic, is when the
lanes aren't allowed to be used by cars etc - cos you can't all fit
in the 'non-bus' lane. But when traffic is light, there's ample room
in that 'non-bus' lane, so why tangle with the cyclists/buses - no
point, might as well stay where you were to start with - it avoids
conflict with cyclists etc who presumably would still be using the
lane.

Yebbut there /was/ still quite a lot of traffic both on the Old Kent Road
and up the A10 between the City and Tottenham. Yet there they were, queuing
up like gude little sheepses while half the road sat there empty.

Quite often when I use unbus lanes in my motorcar, other motorcar drivers
seem to get rather cross. Bah!

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, James Annan

(') said:

You can balance on a plank edge, but not on a bicycle with fork fixed
straight ahead (I think we probably agree it doesn't matter much
whether the bicycle is rolling or stationary). Can you identify the
significant difference(s) between the two cases?

Yes. I don't have a bicycle with its steering fixed straight ahead, so I
can't verify it. I do have a blank, and I have tried that.

You must be getting close to realising you are wrong now you are ducking
such a straightforward question.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is simply nonsense. It is easy to explain how countersteering
works with hands-free riding. Going from straight ahead into a right
turn: tip the bike to the left, and rider to the right (combined CoG
will not move significantly).

Fine. Having done that, what makes it impossible to continue to turn
_to_ _the_ _left_?

The fact that the rider's CoG is already to the RIGHT of the contact
patch, and therefore the ground reaction force is pushing him _further_
to the right at the same time that the contact patch is moving to the
left. In order to turn left, the CoG must be inside the bend relative to
the contact patch.

If you can find me a picture of a cyclist going round a bend while
leaning out rather than in (outside of the contact patch, not just at a
different angle to the bike), I'd be very interested!

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/