Fell off

Call me Bob said:

Simon Mason said:

During the summer when the roads
were dry I was using the countersteering technique where you move
the bars the opposite way to where you want to go

I don't understand this, unless you are riding a speedway bike.

anther topic subjected to intermiable debate in various places.

Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the bike
turns left.

Best demonstrated on a gently sloping carpark to remove pedalling from the
equation. Freewheel gently down hill, hands resting gently atop the bars.
Very gently move one hand forward. eg right hand forward, bike turns to the
right.

Simon Mason said:

Try it. Ride up to a left turn and move your bars to the right and
see what happens.

According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be steered
while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch is so small
that you don't notice it.

In any case, the bike will lean to some extent when cornering. It's
impossible to keep it completely upright (unless pushing the bike at
walking speed).

My advice is nevermind any funny tricks, or trying to lean more than the
bike leans*, just simply keep the speed low and any braking sensible if
the surface is at all suspect.

* Jobst Brandt argues that this actually decreases grip. Can't find a
link now.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Simon Mason said:

Try it. Ride up to a left turn and move your bars to the right and
see what happens.

According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be steered
while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch is so
small that you don't notice it.

To which I say this: rubbish.

It does work, of course, but it's by no means the only way to initiate
steering. The mistake lies in thinking either that the body of the
rider is a fixed mass WRT the bike, or that the inertia of the body has
no effect on the bike. Neither is true. If any of this were true,
riding no hands would not be possible.

Quoted message said:

In any case, the bike will lean to some extent when cornering. It's
impossible to keep it completely upright (unless pushing the bike at
walking speed).

Depends how much you lean your body. Lean your body enough into the turn
and you can even lean the bike *out* of the turn. I don't recommend
doing this on your favourite bike because it's horribly unfair on your
spokes

Quoted message said:

My advice is nevermind any funny tricks, or trying to lean more than
the bike leans*, just simply keep the speed low and any braking
sensible if the surface is at all suspect.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

* Jobst Brandt argues that this actually decreases grip. Can't find a
link now.

Yes, but Jobst Brandt is rather inclined to shoot his mouth off on
matters of which he knows little. Scan through posts on r.b.t WRT
gyroscopic steering for examples.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous

Had a good look at the accident spot this morning. Very slippery, looks to
me like diesel fuel. Some kind soul had thrown a handful or two of sand
around so someone is aware.

Curiously this is satisfying in a way as without an explanation I would find
it hard to get confidence back. So the tyres are not to blame. Good, I
really like these tyres.

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone. There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if there is
such a thing?

Took a couple of bends slowly at first this morning but was soon back to
normal.

For the record I have to say that the first person to help scrape me off the
road was in a big 4X4. Dunno if that means anything but there we are. Oh,
and yes I was wearing the H word, so another life saved by a ceiling tile.

Brian

pk said:

Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the bike
turns left.

It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

pk said:

Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the
right. This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean
left the bike turns left.

It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.

Ah, now, have a question about this. Does it feel like an odd pre-turn
wiggle the wrong way?

--

Velvet

Danny Colyer said:

pk said:

Essentially, if you are riding upright, and without making any other
movement steer to the right, the bike will initiate a turn to the right.
This will "throw" you wight to the LHS of the bike, you lean left the
bike turns left.

It's equally true on a recumbent. It's also much more noticeable,
possibly because of the lower centre of gravity.

Except that my Speed Ross doesn't do it according to the theory. To lean
left the steering must be turned left. I agree completely that most
bikes, and all the motorbikes I've owned needed a countersteer movement,
but the Ross doesn't. And indeed the back tyre makes a quite noticable
noise if a healthy shove is made in the countersteer direction, where for
every other two-wheeler I've ridden the healthier the shove the quicker it
leaned.

One day I'm going to measure up the frame & forks as accurately as I can
and see if I can work out why the Ross is like this.

Mike

Brian Drury' briandotdruryatdsldotpipexdotcom said:

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone. There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if there is
such a thing?

I remember reading about some sort of padded trousers for elderly
to prevent breaking hips when they fall.

Here's more:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/894062.stm
http://www.hiprotector.com/padun.html

There's even a sporty model 🙂

Roos

In message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Brian Drury wrote:
...........

Quoted message said:

Tyres are Schwalbe Jets, until now I thought these were brilliant.
Not so sure now. There was no hint of losing traction, just a
seemingly instantaneous transfer from slant to horizontal. Should I
blame the tyres? This has never happened to me on slower tyres.

Bad luck, I know exactly what that experience feels like: horrible.

An instant slip can happen with any tyres on-road if the surface is
slippery enough or you lean far enough.

Indeed, I came off on a straight road, on a warm sunny day once on the
tourer.

coasting at a fair speed (the tail end of a hill), I saw what looked
like a patch of water , I hiy iy square on, next second, bang I was on
the ground, no warning at all - it turned out to be a patch of oil or
diesel.

I also hurt both knees, when I came off on the Brommie on cold winters
morning, again, going straight, hit a slippy patch and the front juts
went away from me.

--
Chris French, Leeds

Roos Eisma <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

"Brian Drury" <briandotdruryatdsldotpipexdotcom> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone.
There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if
there is
such a thing?

Quoted message said:

I remember reading about some sort of padded trousers for elderly
to prevent breaking hips when they fall.

Hip protectors. I don't know if they'd interfere with cycling, having
never seen them.

Then there are the design parameters...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Velvet wondered (of recumbent counter-steering):

Quoted message said:

Ah, now, have a question about this. Does it feel like an odd pre-turn
wiggle the wrong way?

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but yes, it probably
would if you weren't aware of counter-steering. I steer right to turn
left, and that's usually subconscious, but on the Street Machine I
sometimes notice it happening. It might be because my centre of gravity
is lower. It might be because my centre of gravity is closer to the
front wheel. It might be because my handlebar is wider than on a
wedgie, so my hands move further. It might be because my upper body is
less mobile on the recumbent, so the counter-steer is more important for
getting into a lean.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Roos Eisma <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

"Brian Drury" <briandotdruryatdsldotpipexdotcom> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments

Quoted message said:

from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time

Quoted message said:

or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone.
There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if
there is
such a thing?

Quoted message said:

I remember reading about some sort of padded trousers for elderly
to prevent breaking hips when they fall.

Hip protectors. I don't know if they'd interfere with cycling, having
never seen them.

Then there are the design parameters...

Didn't some MTB oriented shorts use to have built in padding for the pelvis?

...d

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be steered
while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch is so
small that you don't notice it.

To which I say this: rubbish.

Oh dear, Simon's off on one of his rants again.

Quoted message said:

It does work, of course, but it's by no means the only way to initiate
steering. The mistake lies in thinking either that the body of the
rider is a fixed mass WRT the bike, or that the inertia of the body has
no effect on the bike. Neither is true. If any of this were true,
riding no hands would not be possible.

It has nothing to do with riding no-hands. The issue is, how does the
rider get his CoG onto the inside of the curve. In real life, the wheel
track and CoG shift from side to side a little bit in normal riding, as
the rider steers his bike to stay under him (a stable bike may make the
same corrections itself, due to its geometry). In order to turn sharply
however, the CoG has to rapidly get significantly to the inside of the
curve, and there is no external lateral force other than the reaction of
the wheels on the ground (which is almost entirely vertical). The only
way of doing this quickly is to move the wheels to the outside of the
rider (which means countersteering). The fact that this can be achieved
without hands on the bar does not make it any less true.

Quoted message said:

Yes, but Jobst Brandt is rather inclined to shoot his mouth off on
matters of which he knows little.

ROFL! ROFL! And once more, ROFL!

Let me guess: you did this course in metaphysics once...

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Brian Drury said:

The various posting of wisdom are much appreciated, as were the comments
from cycling workmates who all seemed to have experienced this at one time
or another. It seems that the classic damage point is the hip bone. There is
both bruising and skin loss. Seems to me that a strategically placed tough
layer like Kevlar should at least protect the skin. Anyone know if there is
such a thing?

I have a set of MTB shorts that have a noticeably thicker panel of
material on the outside of the hip. I haven't actually tested those ones
to see how effective they are, but it is certainly not a substantial
protector.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Roos Eisma said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/894062.stm
http://www.hiprotector.com/padun.html

Nice Googlewhack too for "Erna Wells is testing out the pants"

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Hey, I thought you believed in science.

:-)

Jon

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

"Brian

Quoted message said:

Drury' briandotdruryatdsldotpipexdotcom ('') said:

Embarrassing. Painful. Big audience....lots of slidy
scrapy ouchy bleedy....
There was no hint of losing traction, just a seemingly
instantaneous transfer from slant to horizontal.

There usually isn't. I had this happen to me on a wet canted granite
slab four weeks ago; the last of the scabs are just disappearing now.

I

Quoted message said:

knew my line was bad, but when the back wheel let go it just let go.
Mind you, muddy knobblies on wet granite don't have a lot of chance.
But thinking about previous occasions when I've overcooked a bend,

you

Quoted message said:

only really get much warning on loose (e.g. gravel) surfaces, and

even

Quoted message said:

then it's often not enough warning to correct things. Lesson: don't
overcook bends.

Mind you, of course, just how much lateral traction you can get out

of a

Quoted message said:

particular bit of surface under particular conditions is a judgement
call, and that's part of what makes riding fast off road fun. On road
you tend to assume that there's always enough traction but

particularly

Quoted message said:

at this time of year there's a lot of reasons why there may not be.

Wet

Quoted message said:

surfaces, particularly if there's a water-oil emulsion (very common
near the gutter); wet leaves, and the slimy remains of wet leaves;
frost; ice.

you can get warnings and sometimes recover if there is localised
slipperyness. I recall going over a damp cast iron manhole on a bend
one time and clearly feeling first the front slide and then back.
Maybe theycancelled each other out, I couldn't claim to have conciously
corrected the manouvre (although I stayed on). OTOH I have also
experienced the "dude! Where's my front wheel traction gone?" effect as
well.

Bets wishes for a recovery to the OP

best wishes
james

Danny Colyer said:

Velvet wondered (of recumbent counter-steering):

Quoted message said:

Ah, now, have a question about this. Does it feel like an odd
pre-turn wiggle the wrong way?

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question, but yes, it probably
would if you weren't aware of counter-steering. I steer right to turn
left, and that's usually subconscious, but on the Street Machine I
sometimes notice it happening. It might be because my centre of gravity
is lower. It might be because my centre of gravity is closer to the
front wheel. It might be because my handlebar is wider than on a
wedgie, so my hands move further. It might be because my upper body is
less mobile on the recumbent, so the counter-steer is more important for
getting into a lean.

I was asking but from a slightly different perspective, that of having
tried a 'bent tadpole. I remembered feeling something the first few
times I steered (then got used to it) where it felt almost like it
wanted to go the opposite direction to where I'd just told it to, then
would snap back to the 'right' way we were turning. At the time I
thought it was possibly just bodyweight shifting to the 'outer' side of
the turn before I compensated to lean 'in' to the turn, but what you
said made me wonder :-)

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for me,
yet) b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't have
that castor effect thing with forks?

--

Velvet

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:27:10 +0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk said:

Actually, trikes do have castor effect. It allows you to pedal in a
straight line without touching the controls. The steering geometry on a
trike seems to be a relatively complex thing compared to bikes.

Never having ridden a trike, I don't really know what I'm talking
about. But I chatted with some members of the Trike Association when I
happened to be in the same Youth Hostel as them. One of the bearded
gurus said that trikes only held a straight line in as much as the
displacement caused when pushing your right foot on the pedal was
equal to the displacement caused by the left foot. He reckoned that
better designs of trike minimised this displacement but he had never
come across or heard of a trike where the displacement was so small to
be unnoticeable.

--
Amazon: "If you are interested in 'Asimov's I-Robot',
you may also be interested in 'Garfield - The Movie'.
... erm, how do they figure that one out?

Velvet said:

I was asking but from a slightly different perspective, that of having
tried a 'bent tadpole. I remembered feeling something the first few
times I steered (then got used to it) where it felt almost like it
wanted to go the opposite direction to where I'd just told it to, then
would snap back to the 'right' way we were turning. At the time I
thought it was possibly just bodyweight shifting to the 'outer' side of
the turn before I compensated to lean 'in' to the turn, but what you
said made me wonder :-)

Not sure that counter steer has any effect on trikes. I think the
steering is always positive (I'm sure Mr Larrington can offer an example
of a lean steer trike to prove me wrong though!).

Quoted message said:

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for me,
yet)

This is the key point. There is no lean in trike cornering.

Quoted message said:

b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't have
that castor effect thing with forks?

Actually, trikes do have castor effect. It allows you to pedal in a
straight line without touching the controls. The steering geometry on a
trike seems to be a relatively complex thing compared to bikes.

What was the trike in question? It sounds like it could be quite
interesting to ride.

Jon