Fell off

James Annan wrote:

(but I snipped it all!)

Surely the way to do this is as follows: we know that turning to the
left means bodyweight will move to the right, in relation to the bike.
The bike starts to lean to the right as it starts very slightly to turn
to the left - your body weight is now to the right of the bike, and you
have no bike under you to balance (the frame is no longer at 90deg to
the road) - it will keep going right, till you fall off. At this point,
wheel tracks would show the front wheel having crossed, and continuing
to separate from, the line you would draw from the rear wheel (and then,
that starts to peel off, but by then you've fallen off sideways to the
right of the bike).

Correction is made by bringing the bike back under you, to regain
balance, and this leans the bike * back toward the left*, but your body
weight, having already been shifted out to the right, means the bike
doesn't lean left, but it does stop falling to the right. Because you
now have the bike 'following' your weight, as long as you have enough
speed so that the forces involved allow your weight to be supported by
the bike (which is still leaning your way, but more importantly turning
that way too) - the majority of which support comes from the front
wheel's position relative to the rest of the bike/you.

If you just turn to the right, your body weight shifts to the left, bike
leans over to the left, you and bike will both run away and continue
falling left, till you hit dirt ;-) You need your bodyweight and the
bike to both be leaning in to the inside of the turn, so that the bike
can prop your weight up (think about what happens when the tyres lose
grip - your wheels slide to the left, leaving you and bike on the ground
both lying on your right side).

The tyre marks should show the point where the front wheel comes back
over the 'centreline' of the following rear wheel, to get back under
your weight and support you as you corner.

Now all that remains is for you lot to go out there and see if I'm right
or not :-)

Oh, and what's more likely to end up with the bike on it's side on the
floor if you've panniers on the back - it leaning over to the right and
front wheel turned to the right, or leaning to the right and front wheel
turned to the left....

IME, if the bike's stationary, wheel to the left and I'm left holding a
bike with front wheel off the ground, and bike attempting to lie down on
it's right side ;-)

--

Velvet

In article <[email hidden]>,

Velvet said:

(but I snipped it all!)

Aren't you three and a half months premature?

Quoted message said:

Surely the way to do this is as follows: we know that turning to the
left means bodyweight will move to the right, in relation to the bike.
The bike starts to lean to the right as it starts very slightly to turn
to the left - your body weight is now to the right of the bike, and you
have no bike under you to balance (the frame is no longer at 90deg to
the road) - it will keep going right, till you fall off. At this point,
wheel tracks would show the front wheel having crossed, and continuing
to separate from, the line you would draw from the rear wheel (and then,
that starts to peel off, but by then you've fallen off sideways to the
right of the bike).

Correction is made by bringing the bike back under you, to regain
balance, and this leans the bike * back toward the left*, but your body
weight, having already been shifted out to the right, means the bike
doesn't lean left, but it does stop falling to the right. Because you
now have the bike 'following' your weight, as long as you have enough
speed so that the forces involved allow your weight to be supported by
the bike (which is still leaning your way, but more importantly turning
that way too) - the majority of which support comes from the front
wheel's position relative to the rest of the bike/you.

If you just turn to the right, your body weight shifts to the left, bike
leans over to the left, you and bike will both run away and continue
falling left, till you hit dirt ;-) You need your bodyweight and the
bike to both be leaning in to the inside of the turn, so that the bike
can prop your weight up (think about what happens when the tyres lose
grip - your wheels slide to the left, leaving you and bike on the ground
both lying on your right side).

The tyre marks should show the point where the front wheel comes back
over the 'centreline' of the following rear wheel, to get back under
your weight and support you as you corner.

Now all that remains is for you lot to go out there and see if I'm right
or not :-)

Oh, and what's more likely to end up with the bike on it's side on the
floor if you've panniers on the back - it leaning over to the right and
front wheel turned to the right, or leaning to the right and front wheel
turned to the left....

IME, if the bike's stationary, wheel to the left and I'm left holding a
bike with front wheel off the ground, and bike attempting to lie down on
it's right side ;-)

--
Nick Kew

in message <[email hidden]>, James Annan

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

According to theory, that is the *only* way a bike can ever be
steered while riding, it's just that the initial subconscious twitch
is so small that you don't notice it.

To which I say this: rubbish.

Oh dear, Simon's off on one of his rants again.

Quoted message said:

It does work, of course, but it's by no means the only way to
initiate steering. The mistake lies in thinking either that the body
of the rider is a fixed mass WRT the bike, or that the inertia of the
body has no effect on the bike. Neither is true. If any of this were
true, riding no hands would not be possible.

It has nothing to do with riding no-hands. The issue is, how does the
rider get his CoG onto the inside of the curve. In real life, the
wheel track and CoG shift from side to side a little bit in normal
riding, as the rider steers his bike to stay under him (a stable bike
may make the same corrections itself, due to its geometry). In order
to turn sharply however, the CoG has to rapidly get significantly to
the inside of the curve, and there is no external lateral force other
than the reaction of the wheels on the ground (which is almost
entirely vertical). The only way of doing this quickly is to move the
wheels to the outside of the rider (which means countersteering).

In order to turn sharply, one may start by turning gently and allow the
turn to increase, rather than limiting it. Note that I'm not saying
that counter steering does not work. All I am saying is that it isn't
the only or the necessary way to initiate a turn. One can initiate a
turn by any means which moves the CoG away from vertically above the
track. Sudden body movements exploiting inertia do this easily - so
easily, in fact, that it's instinctive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but Jobst Brandt is rather inclined to shoot his mouth off on
matters of which he knows little.

ROFL! ROFL! And once more, ROFL!

Let me guess: you did this course in metaphysics once...

Well, speaking as a logician, the question of whether counter steering
is necessary _when riding no hands_ is easily resolved.

(i) Suppose it were necessary to start a turn in one direction by
counter steering, which is in effect a short turn in the other
direction.

(ii) Then in order to initiate this counter steer turn one must first
initiate a counter steer turn in the desired direction.

(iii) Then in order to initiate this counter steer turn one must first
initiate a counter steer turn against the desired direction.

(ii)

(iii)

ad infinitam, and no turn is possible at all. However, as you actually
well know because you've written it above, in normal riding a process
of continuous small corrections are made. When riding no hands, these
are made with shifts of body weight, and there is absolutely no reason
why a shift of body weight cannot be made to initiate turn in the
direction you want to go (or to fail to correct a turn in the direction
you want to go), rather than to initiate a turn in the direction you
don't want to go in order to be able to initiate a turn in the
direction you do want to go.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:13:13 GMT, Velvet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was asking but from a slightly different perspective, that of having
tried a 'bent tadpole. I remembered feeling something the first few
times I steered (then got used to it) where it felt almost like it
wanted to go the opposite direction to where I'd just told it to, then
would snap back to the 'right' way we were turning. At the time I
thought it was possibly just bodyweight shifting to the 'outer' side of
the turn before I compensated to lean 'in' to the turn, but what you
said made me wonder :-)

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for me,
yet) b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't have
that castor effect thing with forks?

The counter-steering effect only applies to two-wheelers. The steering
wheels of a tadpole trike do have a castor angle though, as with a
car.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Velvet said:

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for me,
yet) b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't have
that castor effect thing with forks?

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.
They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

--
Eiron.

Jon Senior said:

Velvet said:

I was asking but from a slightly different perspective, that of having

Quoted message said:

tried a 'bent tadpole. I remembered feeling something the first few
times I steered (then got used to it) where it felt almost like it
wanted to go the opposite direction to where I'd just told it to, then
would snap back to the 'right' way we were turning. At the time I
thought it was possibly just bodyweight shifting to the 'outer' side
of the turn before I compensated to lean 'in' to the turn, but what
you said made me wonder :-)

Not sure that counter steer has any effect on trikes. I think the
steering is always positive (I'm sure Mr Larrington can offer an example
of a lean steer trike to prove me wrong though!).

Quoted message said:

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for
me, yet)

This is the key point. There is no lean in trike cornering.

Quoted message said:

b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't have

Quoted message said:

that castor effect thing with forks?

Actually, trikes do have castor effect. It allows you to pedal in a
straight line without touching the controls. The steering geometry on a
trike seems to be a relatively complex thing compared to bikes.

What was the trike in question? It sounds like it could be quite
interesting to ride.

Jon

Twas an anthrotek. Nice, but not for me (too upright, too high seating
position-wise).

--

Velvet

Eiron said:

Velvet said:

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect, of
course, since they a) don't lean over (no two-wheeled cornering for
me, yet) b) the wheels aren't in line with the rear one, and c) don't
have that castor effect thing with forks?

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.
They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

Trike I tried had no such feel to it :-) USS, seemed fine to me. And
great fun to skid to a halt on loose gravel ;-)

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Jon Senior said:

Velvet wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the key point. There is no lean in trike cornering.

You *can* lean on corners if you want to - some people swear by it,
particularly at speed. Rob managed to lose some skin off his elbow when
unwisely leaning on his SLR during the trike racing at Spezi in Germany
last year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What was the trike in question? It sounds like it could be quite
interesting to ride.

Quoted message said:

Twas an anthrotek. Nice, but not for me (too upright, too high seating
position-wise).

A tad on the heavy side too, even by trike standards. And the high seat
means a higher centre of gravity, so any leaning will have more effect.

--
Carol
"I was just being a little teapot. It's a bad habit of mine"
- Wyvern, Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased).

Eiron said:

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.

That sums it up nicely. The steering feels distinctly odd until you get
used to it.

Quoted message said:

They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

That doesn't stop me wanting one :-P

There was one advertised in a recent issue of Cycle that was the right
price and local to me. From the ad it seemed ideal. I phoned up and
found that it had been sold 2 weeks earlier to someone who had seen it
advertised in the Tricycle Association Gazette and travelled all the way
from Hull to pick it up :-(

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Eiron said:

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.
They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

This is true of trikes with the conventional delta layout. I tried a
Pashley trike once and was embarassingly bad at steering it. I could
not get it going at all. Tadpole recumbents, however, which have two
wheels at the front and one at the back are not like that. I've had a
go on a Trice and the steering was delightfully responsive and
completely intuitive - like a go-kart.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Carol Hague said:

You *can* lean on corners if you want to - some people swear by it,
particularly at speed. Rob managed to lose some skin off his elbow when
unwisely leaning on his SLR during the trike racing at Spezi in Germany
last year.

Picture in the latest VeloVision? (on the doorstep when I got back from
massacring innocent plants at the allotment this morning.)

...d

In message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Came
off the Brompton but it's all my own stupid fault. May describe it in the
future.

I wrote about coming off my Brompton just over a year ago. Brian's 's
fall sounds similar to mine, though in my case there was wheel slippage
- on some damp metal manhole covers at the bottom of an incline.

I still have a red lump on the end joint of my little finger where a
small cut took ages to heal properly.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

David Martin said:

Carol Hague said:

You *can* lean on corners if you want to - some people swear by it,
particularly at speed. Rob managed to lose some skin off his elbow when
unwisely leaning on his SLR during the trike racing at Spezi in Germany
last year.

Picture in the latest VeloVision? (on the doorstep when I got back from
massacring innocent plants at the allotment this morning.)

Entirely possible, but ours hasn't arrived yet - the post round here is
getting veeerrryyyy slllooowww.... :-)

--
Carol
"I was just being a little teapot. It's a bad habit of mine"
- Wyvern, Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased).

Carol Hague said:

You *can* lean on corners if you want to - some people swear by it,
particularly at speed. Rob managed to lose some skin off his elbow when
unwisely leaning on his SLR during the trike racing at Spezi in Germany
last year.

Not what I meant but I know what you mean. The lean is by the person to
counter the lifting of wheels which can occur, rather than by the whole
trike.

Jon

Eiron said:

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.

We are at cross-purposes here. Velvet, myself and others were referring
to recumbent trikes (Usually tadpole) as apposed to upright trikes...

Quoted message said:

They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

.... which are, as you rightly point out, deathtraps!

Jon

Eiron said:

Velvet said:

It might be trikes aren't prone to the same counter-steer effect,

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.

Mine doesn't.

Quoted message said:

To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.

No, never had any problems like that.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Jon Senior said:

Eiron said:

Trikes feel as if the steering is backwards.
To turn right you know that the bars should be turned right
but you can't stop your hands steering left.

We are at cross-purposes here. Velvet, myself and others were referring
to recumbent trikes (Usually tadpole) as apposed to upright trikes...

Quoted message said:

They are deathtraps and should be banned. :-)

... which are, as you rightly point out, deathtraps!

Loadsa tosh.
They just needs some _skill_, sadly lacking in many quarters today.

John B

JohnB said:

Loadsa tosh.
They just needs some _skill_, sadly lacking in many quarters today.

As do unicycles. The fact that it is possible to master the skillset
required does not change the fact that they are an abomination! ;-)

Jon

Jon Senior said:

JohnB said:

Loadsa tosh.
They just needs some _skill_, sadly lacking in many quarters today.

As do unicycles. The fact that it is possible to master the skillset
required does not change the fact that they are an abomination! ;-)

Only if you have a beard ;-)
Thankfully I don't.

John B
Trike, tandem trike, recumbent trike...

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk said:

Carol Hague said:

You *can* lean on corners if you want to - some people swear by it,
particularly at speed. Rob managed to lose some skin off his elbow when
unwisely leaning on his SLR during the trike racing at Spezi in Germany
last year.

Not what I meant but I know what you mean. The lean is by the person to
counter the lifting of wheels which can occur, rather than by the whole
trike.

Ah right, sorry. I thought you meant that trike riders don't need to
lean at all. I think I need a new braincell, this one doesn't work very
well :-)

--
Carol
"I was just being a little teapot. It's a bad habit of mine"
- Wyvern, Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased).