Falling apart

In article <[email hidden]>,

Lorelei said:

"Luna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(The Queen of Cans and Jars) said:

Luna <[email hidden]> wrote:

> I find it extremely insulting and cruel for you to dismiss my real,

actual

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> thoughts and feelings about what is really going on in my life as just

some

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> story I've just concocted in order to create drama.

i didn't start out giving you a hard time about this. i offered you
support: i told you that i think you need therapy, and i was sincere
about that. my opinion still stands.

I know, you're right. I should give you credit for that. Even though it
was crappy, clichéd advice, it was well meant.

You started the insults when I said I didn't get a choice in which
therapist I saw at the state clinic. The condescending "you're an adult
now" as if that means I automatically have enough money for private
therapy, and "you don't have enough insight to solve your own problems."
And I didn't snap back at you even though you were being a [censored] there, I
let it slide. Until you repeated it to someone else, again being
condescending with your arrogant "I have a pretty good idea of her level

of

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insight." And that's when you implied that my situation was [censored] and
nothing more than a constant need for drama. And that comment tarnished my
view of you and threw into question the motivations for everything you

say,

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even when you're supposedly being "genuine." It's like that old joke

"Man,

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you can be a respected citizen for decades, but if you [censored] just one pig
you get called 'pigfucker' for the rest of your life."

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Luna, just an observation here,
you seem to speak from the heart what you think about someone and then when
they rebut, you seem to back off and almost apologize..??

No one is all good or all bad. Queen's not _always_ mean and I'm not
always fair.

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I admire the fact that you use this SUPPORT GROUP for support. I find your
posts to be a sort of therapy for you. It helps to let things out slowly. I
find it hurts too much to keep it in and hurts too much to blurt it out, but
to let it out slowly and piece by piece works for me.
I've been through therapy a few times, and I think that once you've been
enough you can pretty much pose the questions to yourself. at least for me.
keep going. you have my support.
Lori

Thanks Lori.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

But I have never seen you be gratuitously mean.

"Luna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
No one is all good or all bad. Queen's not _always_ mean and I'm not
always fair.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Could be, but that doesn't mean they haven't been through it, which was
my point. I have been through the stopping smoking thing. I stopped for
three months, and then I started again, so I'm in no position to tell
someone how to do it or not to do it. It was one of the most miserable
periods of my life. Congratulations on quitting, and I hope you stay off
the nasty things. :-)

--
Cheri
Type 2, no meds for now.

Luna wrote in message ...

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And then have a mental block on how difficult it was, or have no

empathy

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for someone else going through the same thing? Or maybe they fear that
showing empathy, or at least refraining from showing disdain, will make
them weaker? I think I'm right to be affronted by someone else telling

me

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how difficult quitting smoking _should_ be for me.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Cheri said:

Sometimes the people that have really "been there" don't spend their
lives talking about it at every given opportunity either. They learn
from the experience, toughen up, and move on. JMO

--
Cheri
Type 2, no meds for now.

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Luna <[email hidden]> wrote:

> > > When has QoC&J ever supported anyone, ever? Since she has

everything

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> > > in life all figured out already, and hasn't ever had any

internal

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> > > struggles to fight, she thinks anyone who does is just looking

for

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> > > drama. She can't say something like "I've been there, I know

it

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> > > sucks, here's how I handled it" because she _hasn't_ been

there.

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> >

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3

flaws.

"Luna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Evelyn Ruut said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"You allow yourself to be addicted, or not.

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Everything else is just an excuse."

Luna replied

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> If you didn't find it difficult to quit, then you weren't addicted.

Try

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> quitting something you actually are addicted to, then get back to me

on

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> whether or not it was difficult.

Luna I honestly think JC has something there. It comes down to the
decision part. I quit smoking when I was 18 years old. I FELT the

sense

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of addiction, and I hadn't even been smoking long at that time. It was
VERY compelling, but I was absolutely committed to giving it up, so I

did

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it. Each time I felt like having a cig I had to decide again how

committed

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I was to that decision not to do it. It was hard, but I was really
committed not to give in to it.

Good for you! And yes, it is hard. Though, I never decided to become
addicted. I decided to try it, but I didn't know I would become addicted.
I was a cocky teenager who thought it wouldn't happen to me. And JC is
full of [censored] about thinking you can just decide not to be addicted once

you

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already are. If it were as easy as that, then I could also just decide to
not be fat, and *[censored]* it would happen, no need for all this eating less
and exercising more stuff.

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You can do it too. Once you have absolutely committed to the decision,

it

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becomes easier.

It has now been over 4 weeks since I quit. I am most definitely commited.
I am not someone who is _trying_ to quit, I am someone who _has_ quit.

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Originally this thread was about the substitution of food for the cigs.

We

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ought to try and keep it along those lines.

The amateur psychologists and the trolls and the power trippers have all

had

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their say, as well as quite a few genuine sensitive caring supportive

people

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who gave you some good ideas. The ones who come to mock or criticise

your

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style of relating are not helpful. Skip 'em and move on.

I find some of it helpful. Defending my position forces me to clarify it

to

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myself as well as to others.

Nevertheless I still marvel at the audacity of people who question my
saying quitting smoking while trying to lose weight is the hardest thing
I've ever done. Instead of correctly thinking "Oh, she must be _really_
addicted then" their response is that I must have had a super easy life up
til now. Since quitting wasn't hard for them, they figure it shouldn't be
hard for me either. Huh? Ok then, by that logic, since I didn't cry when
I was 13 and my mother died, anyone who cries when someone they love dies
is a wimp. I knew she was ready to go and it was an end to her suffering,
and if JC or Queenie ever go through something like that and they don't
have exactly the same philosophy about it and reaction to it that I had,
then they're morally and emotionally weak people who need therapy.

--
Michelle Levin

Hi Michelle,

I have a son who tried for YEARS to quit smoking. He kept going back on it
over and over. I made it a point never to nag him about it, but to praise
him when he would quit again for the umpteenth time. Finally now, it looks
as though he really has quit. He would just torture himself over his
failures, as he was nearly powerless to fight that nicotine urge. It would
have been horrible for me to hassle him about it too. I knew it was his
battle, and that he was going to have to fight it on his own.

Some of us just DO NOT respond well to negative feedback, and I am one, and
I know my son is one too. I only really listen to positive feedback or
"support". Knowing this, I try hard to only give positive support.

Others may be different.

Speaking of positive thoughts and not-smoking; a friend of mine went to a
hypno-therapist to get some help to quit. The guy asked her what does a
non-smoker do when they get the urge to smoke? They FORGET about it!......
so she was supposed to "forget about it" every time she identified the
thought that she wanted to smoke. It worked for her.

--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox"😉

Quoted message said:

Sometimes the people that have really "been there" don't spend their
lives talking about it at every given opportunity either. They learn
from the experience, toughen up, and move on. JMO

--
Cheri

Thanks for sharing this opinion Cheri. It is what I have become.

"Luna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Evelyn Ruut said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"You allow yourself to be addicted, or not.

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Everything else is just an excuse."

Luna,

I started smoking at age 16 and did so for 20 years, about 3 packs/day. I
found
quiting to be easy, all 20 times :-). My problem was staying quit. The final
time
(about 20 years ago) I tossed about 2/3 of a pack in the trash can and quit
cold
turkey. It was about 2 years before I can say that I lost any craving for
the smokes.

Quiting is tough but worth it. You have to keep working on it and not give
up.

Good Luck and Hang in There,
BJ

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From: "J. David Anderson"
"Dwell on the past" ??? Everyone "dwells" on the past, it is how we move
forward, by using our past as a yardstick. I don't see Luna as being
overly preoccupied with the past, I see her as looking for answers and
as she certainly can't look at the future for them, the past, by
elimination, is all that is left.

There comes a time for some people. That dwelling in the past is more harm than
good. Sure look at the past to see your past mistakes, or find out answers to
unlock the whys of what you have become in the today. Try to apply what you
have learned from the past. There comes a point though. Like I said ,when
dwelling on the past is more harmful than good. Especially if you look at the
past and only the bad suff. You can easily get caught up in the bad, not
looking at the good, and become depressed. Become at a standstill, with no
answers to anything.

I don't see Luna as dwelling in the past either.

Me, I learned from the past. Got stuck in the past for a time there. I tend to
stick in the here and now.

JMO

Thank you very much for sharing what you shared. 🙂

From: "Evelyn Ruut"

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Lori,

Sounds to me like you and he are both facing this tragic prognosis
realistically courageously, and as best you can. I salute both of your
courage.

I have a complilation of poetry and

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other writings that are based on death.
Having lost several people recently, some of this I found inspiring, some
spiritual, some funny, some consoling, and some were just interesting
reading. There are quotes from a great many famous people here.

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You and
he both might enjoy reading it. At any rate, here it is. I have posted it
before and many people saved it and wrote saying how they appreciated it.

Considering that each and every one of us will oneday pass on, and all of us

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will experience the loss of loved ones during our own journey, it can be
helpful to read this sort of thing.

I hope you enjoy it, or at least find some amusement, consolation or
inspiration.

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A wonderful book that gave my brother in law great inspiration when he was
passing was "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche.
Even if it isn't your religious tradition, the advice is universal.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Evelyn Ruut said:

Some of us just DO NOT respond well to negative
feedback, and I am one, and
I know my son is one too. I only really listen to
positive feedback or
"support". Knowing this, I try hard to only give
positive support.

Others may be different.

Evelyn,

What a wise way to approach things. I've been trying to
do the same for DH--he quit *again* in May, and so far,
so good. I don't quiz him, nag him, or comment much,
other than asking "how's it going?" and "Do you need
anything from me."

I quit in '95--not because I wanted to, but because I
had to. I still crave a smoke now and then--usually
because of situations that stir up the old habit--so I
know how hard it is for those who are just quittiing.

Good luck to your son,

Amy
168/115
5'1"
37

"A Ross" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Evelyn Ruut said:

Some of us just DO NOT respond well to negative
feedback, and I am one, and
I know my son is one too. I only really listen to
positive feedback or
"support". Knowing this, I try hard to only give
positive support.

Others may be different.

Evelyn,

What a wise way to approach things. I've been trying to
do the same for DH--he quit *again* in May, and so far,
so good. I don't quiz him, nag him, or comment much,
other than asking "how's it going?" and "Do you need
anything from me."

I quit in '95--not because I wanted to, but because I
had to. I still crave a smoke now and then--usually
because of situations that stir up the old habit--so I
know how hard it is for those who are just quittiing.

Good luck to your son,

Amy
168/115
5'1"
37

Thanks Amy.... :-)
--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox"😉

Luna wrote:

||And JC
|| is
|| full of [censored] about thinking you can just decide not to be addicted
|| once you already are. If it were as easy as that, then I could also
|| just decide to not be fat, and *[censored]* it would happen, no need for
|| all this eating less
|| and exercising more stuff.

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? No one loses weight instantly
while it is at least possible to quit smoking instantly (seems unlikely
however).

|| I am not someone who is _trying_ to quit, I am someone who _has_
|| quit.

Good way to think about it...
||
|| I find some of it helpful. Defending my position forces me to
|| clarify it to myself as well as to others.

Good point.

||
|| Nevertheless I still marvel at the audacity of people who question my
|| saying quitting smoking while trying to lose weight is the hardest
|| thing
|| I've ever done. Instead of correctly thinking "Oh, she must be
|| _really_ addicted then" their response is that I must have had a
|| super easy life up til now.

Both *could* be true.....and neither is something that one need apologize
for.

Marsha said:

JC Der Koenig wrote:

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I started smoking when I was 8 years old. I quit 20 years later.

There is not try, only do or not do.

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8 years old??? You must have grown up very fast!

Or not. Smoking will stunt your growth. That's what my momma done tol'
me.

Dan
325/211/180
Atkins since 1/1/02 (yeah, it was a New Year's Resolution)
Besetting sins: good beer, German bread, and Krispy Kremes

Let's call a waaaaaaambulance for you already.

--
Slink on back to assorted.stupid.whiners. -- MFW

"Luna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Evelyn Ruut said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"You allow yourself to be addicted, or not.

Quoted message said:

Everything else is just an excuse."

Luna replied

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> If you didn't find it difficult to quit, then you weren't addicted.

Try

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> quitting something you actually are addicted to, then get back to me

on

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> whether or not it was difficult.

Luna I honestly think JC has something there. It comes down to the
decision part. I quit smoking when I was 18 years old. I FELT the

sense

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of addiction, and I hadn't even been smoking long at that time. It was
VERY compelling, but I was absolutely committed to giving it up, so I

did

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Quoted message said:

it. Each time I felt like having a cig I had to decide again how

committed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was to that decision not to do it. It was hard, but I was really
committed not to give in to it.

Good for you! And yes, it is hard. Though, I never decided to become
addicted. I decided to try it, but I didn't know I would become addicted.
I was a cocky teenager who thought it wouldn't happen to me. And JC is
full of [censored] about thinking you can just decide not to be addicted once

you

Quoted message said:

already are. If it were as easy as that, then I could also just decide to
not be fat, and *[censored]* it would happen, no need for all this eating less
and exercising more stuff.

Quoted message said:

You can do it too. Once you have absolutely committed to the decision,

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

becomes easier.

It has now been over 4 weeks since I quit. I am most definitely commited.
I am not someone who is _trying_ to quit, I am someone who _has_ quit.

Quoted message said:

Originally this thread was about the substitution of food for the cigs.

We

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ought to try and keep it along those lines.

The amateur psychologists and the trolls and the power trippers have all

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

their say, as well as quite a few genuine sensitive caring supportive

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who gave you some good ideas. The ones who come to mock or criticise

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

style of relating are not helpful. Skip 'em and move on.

I find some of it helpful. Defending my position forces me to clarify it

to

Quoted message said:

myself as well as to others.

Nevertheless I still marvel at the audacity of people who question my
saying quitting smoking while trying to lose weight is the hardest thing
I've ever done. Instead of correctly thinking "Oh, she must be _really_
addicted then" their response is that I must have had a super easy life up
til now. Since quitting wasn't hard for them, they figure it shouldn't be
hard for me either. Huh? Ok then, by that logic, since I didn't cry when
I was 13 and my mother died, anyone who cries when someone they love dies
is a wimp. I knew she was ready to go and it was an end to her suffering,
and if JC or Queenie ever go through something like that and they don't
have exactly the same philosophy about it and reaction to it that I had,
then they're morally and emotionally weak people who need therapy.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

"Sunshyne" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thank you very much for sharing what you shared. 🙂

You are welcome. I have passed that list on to so many people, all of whom
have enjoyed it a lot.
--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox"😉

Luna said:

But what then? I get the eating under control, and then what? I'll
start drinking? Doing heroin? I have to fix what's actually
wrong, but I don't know how.

Some thoughts:

You might want to spend some time alone ... quiet ... focusing on your
breathing, taking some slow deep breaths. Most smokers inhale deeply
so, counter intuitively, actually suck in more oxygen than when they
quit smoking and breathe more shallowly. Tobacco is also cured in
sugar, which is part of the withdrawal - a good Complex vitamin may help
- B-1 is especially good with addictions. I personally also invite my
higher power into my consciousness and call a supportive friend.

Another thing that might help is to have a strategy for when the
craving hits - a list of things that work for you; for example, a walk,
reading a good book, journaling, a bubble bath, doing something for
someone else, take a small step toward a big goal, etc. Instead of
writing a long involved e-mail to try and convince someone like QC&J of
your point of view is correct, (it ain't a gonna happen, you know) how
about typing up something important - maybe a resume or will or a snail
mail to an old friend or family member?

Giving up an addiction will leave a gaping hole. You need to have
something bigger to fill the vacuum or you will need to go back and try
to fill it with a substance or bad habit.

Also, you're giving your valuable time to, and getting all upset over a
few strangers' opinions of you. Think of all the people you know whom
you would never listen to in regards to advice - but put them in front
of a keyboard and now they have something of value to say? Think of the
time and attention you are giving to people whom in many cases are
negative, or at best wouldn't even notice or care if you were to
disappear from the newgroup.

A usenet group has some good points, but you have to have discernment -
to sort through the chaff and pick out the grain. There are a lot of
people on usenet who have an enormous amount of healing to do.

I've found it works for me to notice how I spend my time. It's the
currency of our lives. It would be easy for me to spend an hour a day
on a newsgroup. If I were to spend that much concentrated time on
almost *anything* else I'm interested in, I'd have more to show for it.

Take care of yourself, Michelle.

Barb

In article <[email hidden]>,

Barb2 said:

Luna said:

But what then? I get the eating under control, and then what? I'll
start drinking? Doing heroin? I have to fix what's actually
wrong, but I don't know how.

I've found it works for me to notice how I spend my time. It's the
currency of our lives. It would be easy for me to spend an hour a day
on a newsgroup. If I were to spend that much concentrated time on
almost *anything* else I'm interested in, I'd have more to show for it.

Take care of yourself, Michelle.

Barb

Thanks for all the suggestions Barb. I actually just posted about my newly
discovered scrapbooking hobby. I see a lot of potential in it as something
therapeutic for me.

I'm actually pretty proud of some of the things I've written in these
arguments. The point isn't to convince anyone else that I'm right, it's to
make sure, for myself, that I know I'm right. I can't _really_ know what I
think and if it makes sense until I try to convince someone else. Some of
my journal entries are like that. I'll write as if I'm arguing with
someone I don't know, someone fictional, or from history, or current
events.

So, I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, but I don't care if I
convince my opponents or not. I'm just using them and their statements as a
tool to sharpen my focus. And of course as a distraction from eating and
craving cigarettes. ;o)

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

In article <[email hidden]>,

JC Der Koenig said:

Let's call a waaaaaaambulance for you already.

Only if the driver is a hot single straight guy with a big . . . oh, yeah,
they said something on AS3 about the horny phase of withdrawls. Hmm.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Luna wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>,
|| Barb2 <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||| Luna wrote:
|||
|||
||| >
||| > But what then? I get the eating under control, and then what?
||| I'll > start drinking? Doing heroin? I have to fix what's
||| actually > wrong, but I don't know how.
||| >
||| >
|||
|||
||| I've found it works for me to notice how I spend my time. It's the
||| currency of our lives. It would be easy for me to spend an hour a
||| day on a newsgroup. If I were to spend that much concentrated time
||| on almost *anything* else I'm interested in, I'd have more to show
||| for it.
|||
||| Take care of yourself, Michelle.
|||
|||
||| Barb
|||
||
|| Thanks for all the suggestions Barb. I actually just posted about
|| my newly discovered scrapbooking hobby. I see a lot of potential in
|| it as something therapeutic for me.
||
|| I'm actually pretty proud of some of the things I've written in these
|| arguments. The point isn't to convince anyone else that I'm right,
|| it's to make sure, for myself, that I know I'm right. I can't
|| _really_ know what I think and if it makes sense until I try to
|| convince someone else. Some of my journal entries are like that.
|| I'll write as if I'm arguing with someone I don't know, someone
|| fictional, or from history, or current events.
||
|| So, I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, but I don't care if I
|| convince my opponents or not. I'm just using them and their
|| statements as a tool to sharpen my focus. And of course as a
|| distraction from eating and craving cigarettes. ;o)

I knew it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

|| So, I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, but I don't care if I
|| convince my opponents or not. I'm just using them and their
|| statements as a tool to sharpen my focus. And of course as a
|| distraction from eating and craving cigarettes. ;o)

I knew it.

Yeah, it was pretty obvious.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Luna wrote:
|| In article <[email hidden]>,
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
||
||
||||| So, I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, but I don't care if
||||| I convince my opponents or not. I'm just using them and their
||||| statements as a tool to sharpen my focus. And of course as a
||||| distraction from eating and craving cigarettes. ;o)
|||
||| I knew it.
|||
|||
||
|| Yeah, it was pretty obvious.

I'm not so sure about that...