Discovery in disarray.... ?

[bobke]

Did we say we were as good as them?

yeah, i'm sure Vino's in his hotel right now saying 'OMG I'VE BEEN BEATEN BY POPO AND MCARTNEY IN A SPANISH WARM UP RACE NOBODY CARES ABOUT EXCEPT RANDOM SPANISH TEAMS SPONSORED BY HOLIDAY RESORTS OR DISCO CHEERLEADERS. ARRRGH!'

Yes, read above, WBT said he could beat them.
Yes, I recall Popo, Hincapie dropping Vino on COurchevel last year and what a dog VIno looked like as he dragged his a## up COurchevel.
So, I think it would be disheartening to be beaten by McCartney Jason or Paul in a TT.
Sad really.

 

[limerickman]

Yes, read above, WBT said he could beat them.
Yes, I recall Popo, Hincapie dropping Vino on COurchevel last year and what a dog VIno looked like as he dragged his a## up COurchevel.
So, I think it would be disheartening to be beaten by McCartney Jason or Paul in a TT.
Sad really.

Vino won two stages in the TDF in 2006.

I think Vino's 2005 season was a considerably better than Messrs Hincapie and Popoyvch.
Discount Wheelsucker Hincapie's stage win at LeTour and the cupboard was pretty bare.

I thought I told you before that we're trying to keep these discussions objective.
Instead you're resorting to the usual sniping.

Have I made myself clear?

 

[whiteboytrash]

Yes, read above, WBT said he could beat them.
Yes, I recall Popo, Hincapie dropping Vino on COurchevel last year and what a dog VIno looked like as he dragged his a## up COurchevel.
So, I think it would be disheartening to be beaten by McCartney Jason or Paul in a TT.
Sad really.

Again Americans miss sarcasm.... oh the irony.... my grandmother could of won that race and she has no legs ! anyway back to your previous point about the ProTour team classification points list... you were telling all of us that Discovery are on top and then provide a non-ProTour race which carries zero points as evidence on how superior they are ! Come on ! get with the programme.... lets see where they sit after the next two ProTour races..... the truth hurts. Discovery is in disarray.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Did we say we were as good as them?

yeah, i'm sure Vino's in his hotel right now saying 'OMG I'VE BEEN BEATEN BY POPO AND MCARTNEY IN A SPANISH WARM UP RACE NOBODY CARES ABOUT EXCEPT RANDOM SPANISH TEAMS SPONSORED BY HOLIDAY RESORTS OR DISCO CHEERLEADERS. ARRRGH!'

Vino said that there is not enough gruelling, all-out, energy sapping, punishing, 11km time trials around where he gets to race against the crème of the Spanish hotel industry who also happen to be part time bike riders.....

 

[musette]

Vino won two stages in the TDF in 2006.

I think Vino's 2005 season was a considerably better than Messrs Hincapie and Popoyvch.
Discount Wheelsucker Hincapie's stage win at LeTour and the cupboard was pretty bare...
Have I made myself clear?

You might have made yourself clear, but that doesn't mean anything about whether what you are saying is persuasive, obviously and as usual.

Popovych won:

TdF White Jersey
Tour de Cataluyna, GC
1 Stage, TdF, Part of TTT

Here's what Hincapie won:

1 Stage, TdF
1 Stage, TdF, Part of TTT
2 Stages, Dauphine Libere
GP Plouay in France
KBK

Vino:
2 Stages, TdF
Part of team classification, TdF
Liege Baston Liege

Let's see -- is being strategic (because one has helped one's team leader into yellow and can race strategically and smartly) worse or is it worse to be so pathetic as only win one's first stage of the TdF that year by losing so much time that the GC leader and his team aren't as worried about you any more? Cos you're no longer as meaningful a GC threat -- cos you sucked on the previous stage so badly that you were allowed to ride ahead a little! Haha.

 

[meandmybike]

OK you guys are pathetic...you couldnt beat any of the riders if your lives depended on it.

So by your reasoning you could whup Jan's ass, given the slaggin you're doing of him in another thread?http://www.cyclingforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2638741#

 

[limerickman]

You might have made yourself clear, but that doesn't mean anything about whether what you are saying is persuasive, obviously and as usual.

Popovych won:

TdF White Jersey
Tour de Cataluyna, GC
1 Stage, TdF, Part of TTT

Here's what Hincapie won:

1 Stage, TdF
1 Stage, TdF, Part of TTT
2 Stages, Dauphine Libere
GP Plouay in France
KBK

Vino:
2 Stages, TdF
Part of team classification, TdF
Liege Baston Liege

Let's see -- is being strategic (because one has helped one's team leader into yellow and can race strategically and smartly) worse or is it worse to be so pathetic as only win one's first stage of the TdF that year by losing so much time that the GC leader and his team aren't as worried about you any more? Cos you're no longer as meaningful a GC threat -- cos you sucked on the previous stage so badly that you were allowed to ride ahead a little! Haha.

A win at LBL, resultwise, accounts for more than what Hincapie or Popoyvch
managed to do during one race ie TDF.
LBL is a monument.
Throw in Vino's two TDF stage wins - and the difference in quality is apparent.
Vino's 2005 season was far superior to the other two.
I would also argue that Vino's TDF was at parity with Hincapie.

Your problem is that you're not objective.

 

[Eldrack]

I would say that they had pretty similar seasons, in terms of results, myself. Not that either of you two will agree as your so firmly entrenched on opposite sides of no mans land i'll just leave you to sit in your bunkers and abuse each other.

 

[musette]

Vino's win after he lost all meaningful GC hopes was about as pathetic as they come. Hah, hah. And isn't it also pathetic that somebody who sees himself as a Grand Tour GC (incl TdF GC) contender has to settle for stage wins and team classification and of course didn't get a jersey.

Oh, sorry. There might have been something more pathetic. The same cyclist being reeled in by Klodie and JU!

Also, it must be noted that Vino is in his later years of his career, whereas Popo is much younger and got a jersey.

 

[whiteboytrash]

It’s all in the past and doesn't change the fact that Discovery are in disarray in 2006. MSR was a glaring example of this. I look forward to the Giro when an angry young TD chases down Savodelli...... bringing up dead wood will not hide the fact of the failings of Discovery.

Leif Hoste rode a great race in MSR.. he was meant to be the leader and finished 128th over seven minutes behind ! Dirk DeMol said before the race on the PACELINE.com: "But I know that Hoste is very fit right now as we saw by his second place TT finish this week...." How wrong he was.... Discovery are in disarray.

Vino's win after he lost all meaningful GC hopes was about as pathetic as they come. Hah, hah. And isn't it also pathetic that somebody who sees himself as a Grand Tour GC (incl TdF GC) contender has to settle for stage wins and team classification and of course didn't get a jersey.

Oh, sorry. There might have been something more pathetic. The same cyclist being reeled in by Klodie and JU!

Also, it must be noted that Vino is in his later years of his career, whereas Popo is much younger and got a jersey.

 

[meandmybike]

Vino's win after he lost all meaningful GC hopes was about as pathetic as they come. Hah, hah.

Winning on the Champs Elysee in a breakaway pathetic?

You really know your cycling.

 

[moviekindoflife]

Vino's win after he lost all meaningful GC hopes was about as pathetic as they come. Hah, hah. And isn't it also pathetic that somebody who sees himself as a Grand Tour GC (incl TdF GC) contender has to settle for stage wins and team classification and of course didn't get a jersey.

Oh, sorry. There might have been something more pathetic. The same cyclist being reeled in by Klodie and JU!

Also, it must be noted that Vino is in his later years of his career, whereas Popo is much younger and got a jersey.

even more pathetic: sitting on oscar pereiro's wheel in a break away all day then sprinting past him at the last minute and celebrating the victory like the winner did all the work. not mentioning names.

 

[Bjorn P.Dal]

Vino's win after he lost all meaningful GC hopes was about as pathetic as they come. Hah, hah. And isn't it also pathetic that somebody who sees himself as a Grand Tour GC (incl TdF GC) contender has to settle for stage wins and team classification and of course didn't get a jersey.

Oh, sorry. There might have been something more pathetic. The same cyclist being reeled in by Klodie and JU!

Also, it must be noted that Vino is in his later years of his career, whereas Popo is much younger and got a jersey.

funny I went to webster.com and looked up the definition for pathetic and it only said one word: musette

 

[wolfix]

funny I went to webster.com and looked up the definition for pathetic and it only said one word: musette

Disarray is
1......Festina.... Getting caught back in the day.
2..... Having your team leader constantly show up for the TDF out of shape.
3..... Having your team leader smack into the back of a car.
3... Having Vino attack in the 2005 TDF.
4..... Leaving Zabel home.
5......Showing up at the opening prolouge a few minutes late. { Delgado}
6..... Having your "TWIN" disappear when you need him the most.{ Tyler}
7...... Testing positive on the last stage after securing a win. [ Heras}

Not having a major contender after accomplishing what no team has done in the history of the TDF is not disarray. This is not the year we judge Bruyneel. Next year we get to see what he has when his re-organization starts taking shape.

 

[Dead Star]

Might I also add 'being too tactically stupid and blowing both yours and the other breakaway rider's chances' like Mr Devolder at Paris-Tours

 

[MJtje]

Yeah devolder is a weird rider, but he has the potential to be there with boonen. Look at kuurne-brussel-kuurne last year....the only reason why hincapie won was because of the constant attacks of devolder that exhausted boonen in the end........

The moment devolder rides conservatively in a race, he'll do big things.......still waiting for that moment..............

Might I also add 'being too tactically stupid and blowing both yours and the other breakaway rider's chances' like Mr Devolder at Paris-Tours

 

[limerickman]

Disarray is
1......Festina.... Getting caught back in the day.
2..... Having your team leader constantly show up for the TDF out of shape.
3..... Having your team leader smack into the back of a car.
3... Having Vino attack in the 2005 TDF.
4..... Leaving Zabel home.
5......Showing up at the opening prolouge a few minutes late. { Delgado}
6..... Having your "TWIN" disappear when you need him the most.{ Tyler}
7...... Testing positive on the last stage after securing a win. [ Heras}

Not having a major contender after accomplishing what no team has done in the history of the TDF is not disarray. This is not the year we judge Bruyneel. Next year we get to see what he has when his re-organization starts taking shape.

I think Discovery has been a one trick pony for the past few years and this has become apparent this season.
Now one could suggest that by putting all it's eggs in one basket - that it was natural that it would take time to adjust after the retirement of Armstrong.

Armstrong retired in July 2005 - to be sending mixed messages and getting lines crossed 8 months later does suggest some disarray.

As for your list - I can't argue with what you've written.

 

[wolfix]

I think Discovery has been a one trick pony for the past few years and this has become apparent this season.
Now one could suggest that by putting all it's eggs in one basket - that it was natural that it would take time to adjust after the retirement of Armstrong.

Armstrong retired in July 2005 - to be sending mixed messages and getting lines crossed 8 months later does suggest some disarray.

As for your list - I can't argue with what you've written.

There is no doubt Discovery put all it's eggs in one basket..... But the Discovery Channel who paid the way wanted nothing but a TDF win. They had riders who may have had a few victories if it wasn't for riding solely for Lance. Hincapie is a rider who put personal aspirations aside. Discovery went with the TDF formula that the teams of old had.... One team leader, everyone for that team leader.
And now the price must be paid.
This year I believe is a transition year. Bruyneel gets to see who steps up and wants the team leader role. I am willing to bet that the Giro for Salvo and PR for Hincapie is a more realistic goal then the TDF is for Discovery. . I imagine at the end of this year Discovery will sort it's players out and have a more solid definition of who they are. Bruyneel is a smart man. And off hand, I can see Landis at Discovery next year if he continues at this pace. Landis's earning power is much higher at Discovery then it is anywhere else. I just cannot see Discovery wanting to be a Classics team with the Discovery Channel as the sponsor. They need an American at the front of the TDF to reach their market base.

 

[Eden]

Not having a major contender after accomplishing what no team has done in the history of the TDF is not disarray. This is not the year we judge Bruyneel. Next year we get to see what he has when his re-organization starts taking shape.

I have to agree here - I've been watching this thread, thinking to myself that the whole argument is a little silly. Why care so much that a team that was built around one guy isn't winning a lot of early season races the year after their big star retires - big whoop. Give it some time and allow them to develop some new riders and enjoy the fact that other teams will be soaking up more of the glory this year. What have you got against Bruyneel that you want to slam the guy so hard for? Is it the everybody hates a winner syndrome? Give it a rest and just enjoy the racing regardless of the teams the winners belong to.

IMHO one of the nice things about bicycle racing is that unlike baseball, football (american and euro), basketball etc., its not entirely the teams with the most money to buy the best players that always seem to win everything. The wins get more spread around since cycling teams seem to work better with more indians than chiefs and different teams have different specialists. I for one have been enjoying the early season so far and I think that the big tours this year will be better than ever since there could be some serious competition happening.

 

[Dimos]

What a thread!
The pro-Discos see no disarray the con-Discos see plenty...

Let's leave the season unfold first, shall we?