Discovery in disarray.... ?

[wolfix]

The biggest news out of the QS camp is Boonen has been regulated to domestique for PR... He will be working for Filippo Pozzato. This is what had to say after Tour Flanders......

"I am really happy with the work I did for Tom today... I wanted to give a proper payback for Sanremo," said Pozzato after a day of super-domestique duties. "I feel I worked great and nicely repaid Tom... I am happy for his win. It was a proper gesture for his work in Milano-Sanremo. I believe that this favor will be returned, maybe next Sunday [in Roubaix]." What was said to Boonen late in the race? "I asked him how I was going, and he said that I was doing a great pace and to keep it strong. ... I arrived in the second group, but I am happy for the work that I have done for this great team."

"Next Sunday, at Roubaix, I certainly hope to be a challenger. I will be at the front and go with the favorites. I hope that Tom will work for me ... If we are both in front together it will be good for the team," finished Pippo.


I can only wait......

 

[PartisanRanger]

Yes!! Rhubarb, my exact thought.
Conclusion: Demol is full of ****, recall he is Belgian of course.
Maybe Hoste was supposed to attack but later and closer to the Muur and with full warning to George.

If you look at the tapes, George was way out of position to try and follow, which I am convinced Hoste did on purpose. Hoste sneaked around the outside in the gutter and then just flew, Hincapie was boxed in and by time he could get around he WOULD have been dragging Bettini and others back.

And I dont care what the odds are, George would have stood a better chance against Boonen than Hoste.

And I am now officially sick of pretty boy Tom saying **** like "It doesnt matter if Hincapie had been there I would have beaten him too."
Oh really, Tom? Then why run the race? Just go ahead and collect the trophy and prixe money and spare all the riders 280 km of hell.

If Lance had EVER, I mean EVER stuffed it in someone's face like that he would have been doused in cognac and set on fire in the Alps.

I sincerely hope Boonen crashes in Paris Roubaix and Hoste Hincapie and PVP go into the velodrome where George will rip Hoste a new a##hole.

I agree with you, Boonen looks to me to be an asshole. I'll be routing for Hincapie to pull off an upset on him upon their next encounter...

 

[limerickman]

The xenophobia exhibited in some of the last few posts defies belief.

The fact of the matter is that Hincapie was in no position to make a move.
QS FILLETTED DC ON THE KOPPENBERG.
That was the problem for DC - Hincapie was in no position to attack even if he wanted to.

If Hincapie was capable of attacking - he ought to have gone with Hoste - but he couldn't.

I really wish people here would view the race prior to getting on the xenophobic soapbox.
The writing was on the wall 89kms from the finish : Sean Kelly said while
commentating on Eurosport "DC are working too hard, too early - they're in the wrong position (at the head of the bunch) this early in the race. They should be back in the pack like Boonen and QS"

 

[whiteboytrash]

And I am now officially sick of pretty boy Tom saying **** like "It doesnt matter if Hincapie had been there I would have beaten him too."
Oh really, Tom? Then why run the race? Just go ahead and collect the trophy and prixe money and spare all the riders 280 km of hell.

If Lance had EVER, I mean EVER stuffed it in someone's face like that he would have been doused in cognac and set on fire in the Alps.

I sincerely hope Boonen crashes in Paris Roubaix and Hoste Hincapie and PVP go into the velodrome where George will rip Hoste a new a##hole.

Ah I love it..... Lance never stuffed it in someone's face after beating them... LOL ! Thats because he spent more time picking on the "small guys" like Bassons and Simonei...... although Kloden got an ear full once after Lance beat him on the line.... I get the impression Boonen loves sticking to Discovery for there lack of foresight in him.... he is really showing them now...

Tom Boonen has more class in his small finger than Armstrong ever did and Boonen has loads of respect in the peleton which Armstrong never did....

Bonnen is the future and he is a superstar and he is here to stay.

 

[micron]

Yeah, respected by fans worldwide, the peloton and the cycling fraternity - must really make Discovery spit that Boonen has so effortlessly achieved it all - without them. Amazing how some people can pull off that trick of being great at what they do and eminently likeable - shame it always seemed to elude Armstrong

 

[whiteboytrash]

Good post LM; What some people have to understand is Hincapie is not a leader and never will be. He is too goofy and just too nice. The guys in his own team really don't fear stepping out of line from him like they did with Lance.



Hincapie was good at taking orders and riding on the front of the bunch when he had to but he is not a winner and never will be. He has to accept that and the people of this forum have to accept that.

What will happen at PR now is that Hoste will be to scared to attack because of retribution and Hincapie won’t have the firepower or tactical savvy to do so and Discovery will crumble like a cheap Danish pastry..... the whole thing will fall into QS hands and they will win again with the number of options they have. It’s just all too easy for them and they must be laughing at Discovery ineptness.

The xenophobia exhibited in some of the last few posts defies belief.

The fact of the matter is that Hincapie was in no position to make a move.
QS FILLETTED DC ON THE KOPPENBERG.
That was the problem for DC - Hincapie was in no position to attack even if he wanted to.

If Hincapie was capable of attacking - he ought to have gone with Hoste - but he couldn't.

I really wish people here would view the race prior to getting on the xenophobic soapbox.
The writing was on the wall 89kms from the finish : Sean Kelly said while
commentating on Eurosport "DC are working too hard, too early - they're in the wrong position (at the head of the bunch) this early in the race. They should be back in the pack like Boonen and QS"

 

[limerickman]

Yeah, respected by fans worldwide, the peloton and the cycling fraternity - must really make Discovery spit that Boonen has so effortlessly achieved it all - without them. Amazing how some people can pull off that trick of being great at what they do and eminently likeable - shame it always seemed to elude Armstrong

Yeah, in reading the quotes on various sites and in print - Boonen's opponents show TB a lot more respect than some posters do here.
I note that a lot of them refer to Boonen by his first name.
A small matter, i know but indicative of the level of respect that the peloton feel for TB.

TB has never come across as being conceited or bigheaded.

 

[limerickman]

Good post LM; What some people have to understand is Hincapie is not a leader and never will be. He is too goofy and just too nice. The guys in his own team really don't fear stepping out of line from him like they did with Lance.



Hincapie was good at taking orders and riding on the front of the bunch when he had to but he is not a winner and never will be. He has to accept that and the people of this forum have to accept that.

What will happen at PR now is that Hoste will be to scared to attack because of retribution and Hincapie won’t have the firepower or tactical savvy to do so and Discovery will crumble like a cheap Danish pastry..... the whole thing will fall into QS hands and they will win again with the number of options they have. It’s just all too easy for them and they must be laughing at Discovery ineptness.

I actually think that GH is a very very good rider - and he's a nice bloke.
But on Sunday he was no match for Boonen : and his squad were no match for QuickStep.

Posters here are losing their objectivity by making accusations of collusion between riders from different teams.
It's rubbish.

The only collusion was that QuickStep had their tactics together and DC didn't.
And even if DC did get their tactics right - I reckon Boonen was too good anyhow to be beaten.

 

[DV1976]

Yes!! Rhubarb, my exact thought.
Conclusion: Demol is full of ****, recall he is Belgian of course.
.

Bruyneel is Belgian, Disco's chief mechanic is Belgian, most of the mechanics are Belgian, most of the soigneurs are Belgian and most (if not all) handpicked by Lance and Bruyneel. Disco (in a sense) is more of a Belgian team with an American sponsor than an American team so your argument is... let's say weak...
I am still waiting for some of you Disco fans to come up with an alternative plan that would give Hincapie the chance to win. Because all you do is moan and groan and blame Demol and the motorcycles and claim Boonen (one of the most well liked guys in the peloton it seems) is an arrogant ba$$^£d (more than a bit ironic coming from Lance fans) but none of you have suggested an alternative...
All you do is accept on face value the ridiculous excuses that Hincapie (seriously what a load of bollox!!!) is making and blame (conveniently) Demol and Hoste because they are not American... Well guess what. It was 100% Hincapie's fault.

 

[wolfix]

I actually think that GH is a very very good rider - and he's a nice bloke.
But on Sunday he was no match for Boonen : and his squad were no match for QuickStep.

Posters here are losing their objectivity by making accusations of collusion between riders from different teams.
It's rubbish.

The only collusion was that QuickStep had their tactics together and DC didn't.
And even if DC did get their tactics right - I reckon Boonen was too good anyhow to be beaten.

Actually the accusations of collusions was in reference to individual riders. It was several riders/DS of the race that made the accusation of the motorpaced advantage [collusion] between Boonen and Hoste.
And the thing is , nobody here has said that Hincapie would have beat Boonen. No one is denying that Boonen was heads above everyone. What is being stated is that IF DC was to have any chance at all, the tactics that they employed was never going to work. [Originally I took it that Hoste attacked on his own, but now that it was revealed that he and Demol was on the same page]
And , the Tour of Belgium historically has the reputation of riders in collusion with other Belgian riders.

 

[wolfix]

I am still waiting for some of you Disco fans to come up with an alternative plan that would give Hincapie the chance to win.

I gave one a few posts back ......Maybe it was in the other thread..I have an appointment in a few minutes, I'll look it up when I get back .....
And again .....I don't think anyone is saying Hincapie would have won, but what is being said is that DC /Hoste's tactics were horrible.

 

[musette]

Hincapie observes on G-W: ""He's [Boonen is] probably going to be taking it calmly on Wednesday, not pushing himself too hard," 2001 Ghent-Wevelgem winner George Hincapie told Reuters." "He [Boonen] won't want to risk going all-out. Paris-Roubaix is too important for him," added the American."

I think Hincapie has a point. If DC is serious about trying to win P-R, they should adopt a strategy of trying to push Boonen & Q-S hard at G-W. That way, DC either (i) tires out some Q-S riders, even if Boonen himself is not going to be drawn in, or (ii) improves DC's chances at winning G-W if Q-S is cautious at G-W, which would be a good consolation prize if Boonen won both Tour of Flanders and P-R.

 

[limerickman]

I gave one a few posts back ......Maybe it was in the other thread..I have an appointment in a few minutes, I'll look it up when I get back .....
And again .....I don't think anyone is saying Hincapie would have won, but what is being said is that DC /Hoste's tactics were horrible.

Lads - give it up will ya!

From what you guys are saying you're alleging that Demol (because he's Belgian) as DC director, wanted a Belgian to win RVV and thereby created a tactic whereby a Belgian other than Hoste was guaranteed to win, at the expense of his (Demol's) own team member (Hincapie) ?!?!

 

[doctorSpoc]

Actually the accusations of collusions was in reference to individual riders. It was several riders/DS of the race that made the accusation of the motorpaced advantage [collusion] between Boonen and Hoste.
And the thing is , nobody here has said that Hincapie would have beat Boonen. No one is denying that Boonen was heads above everyone. What is being stated is that IF DC was to have any chance at all, the tactics that they employed was never going to work. [Originally I took it that Hoste attacked on his own, but now that it was revealed that he and Demol was on the same page]
And , the Tour of Belgium historically has the reputation of riders in collusion with other Belgian riders.

c'mon... the tactics are very clear now.. and make all kinds of sense... break up the group and get rid of as many quicksteps as possible, leaving Boonen isolated and as vulnerable as possible... that's a good strategy... the only problem is that Hincapie didn't have the legs or the good sense or both to get onto Boonen and carry out the tactics.. he was out of position AGAIN at a critical point in the race and didn't look like he had the legs either... he should have been on Boonen like a "limpet" as liggett says... put the blame were it belongs... squarely on Hincapie's shoulders... this is like people blaming Cunego because Simoni didn't have the legs in the 2004 Giro... why would they ever give up a absolutely assured 2nd place when it was apparent that Hincapie didn't have the legs when it counted most... that would be REALLY stupid... Demol gave Hincapie permission to chase... but he couldn't do it OR wouldn't do it.. Hincapie is a strong rider but he just has too much of a tendency to follow wheels...he's the kind of rider that gives 100%... but sometime you need to give 110% (as in this case) but it's just not part of Hincapies psyche to do that.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Hincapie observes on G-W: ""He's [Boonen is] probably going to be taking it calmly on Wednesday, not pushing himself too hard," 2001 Ghent-Wevelgem winner George Hincapie told Reuters." "He [Boonen] won't want to risk going all-out. Paris-Roubaix is too important for him," added the American."

I think Hincapie has a point. If DC is serious about trying to win P-R, they should adopt a strategy of trying to push Boonen & Q-S hard at G-W. That way, DC either (i) tires out some Q-S riders, even if Boonen himself is not going to be drawn in, or (ii) improves DC's chances at winning G-W if Q-S is cautious at G-W, which would be a good consolation prize if Boonen won both Tour of Flanders and P-R.

the only problem is that QS as a team was riding circles around Disco at Flanders so if anything, if Disco goes hard at G-W they will be much worse for wear than QS will be

 

[DV1976]

]It could have gone down like this if DC had any chance at all ...... If Hoste and Hincapie would have jumped at the same time......Remember when Hoste jumped, Pozzato was dropped....And after riding off the front by a small margin Boonen only had 1 teammate in the group......They stayed just off the front for over 13 minutes with Hincapie blocking.... Then they jumped to a lead of a minute . [the moorpacing helped} If Hincapie/Hosta could isolated Boonen with the help of Ballan/PVP then the out come may have been different. Both Hincapie/Hoste are as strong as Boonen except in the sprints ..... And 2/3/4 riders of Hincapie/Hoste/PVP/Ballan may have been able to seperate one of them from Boonen......

I believe that is what you suggested in the other thread.
You accused Hoste and Boonen of colluding yet colluding is what you suggest only this time it's ok because it could favour Hincapie?
1) Why would Ballan and PVP collude with the DS boys?
2) Why do you assume that Ballan, PVP and Hincapie could follow Boonen? I don't remember anybody being able to follow him last year. Give me a good reason why would that work and why Boonen wouldn't happily follow wheels (probably along with Bettini) until the last climb or until the final sprint?
3) Why is Demol's fault if PVP and Ballan wouldn't want to play ball with Hicapie?
4) Seriously. Would you ever see Armstrong let Ullrich or Basso go (no matter what the strategy was) if he had the legs to follow? Because to me what happened is obvious. Hincapie had (in cycling terms) all the time in the world to decide whether he should join the break (they stayed within close distance for so long that it was almost an open invitation) or demand from Hoste to
abandon it. The fact that did nothing proves either that he had no legs or that he was not the team leader.

 

[bobke]

Lads - give it up will ya!

From what you guys are saying you're alleging that Demol (because he's Belgian) as DC director, wanted a Belgian to win RVV and thereby created a tactic whereby a Belgian other than Hoste was guaranteed to win, at the expense of his (Demol's) own team member (Hincapie) ?!?!

No, I am suggesting that Demol is way overplaced in terms of his knowledge. He won Paris Roubaix as a fluke in the role of domestique who got away by accident.

Would he rather Hoste come in second instead of George, absolutely.
No question.
He has not been exactly rocket scientist with strategy in the clssics. Recall he was the DS when Disco got smoked and left t the back wneh QS attacked last year in Flanders.

Yes, like the Bush administration, a shake up needs to happen in Disco.
With all the talent they have their classics results are poor.

 

[limerickman]

No, I am suggesting that Demol is way overplaced in terms of his knowledge. He won Paris Roubaix as a fluke in the role of domestique who got away by accident.

Would he rather Hoste come in second instead of George, absolutely.
No question.
He has not been exactly rocket scientist with strategy in the clssics. Recall he was the DS when Disco got smoked and left t the back wneh QS attacked last year in Flanders.

Yes, like the Bush administration, a shake up needs to happen in Disco.
With all the talent they have their classics results are poor.

OK - suppose for a moment that you're correct and Demol does in fact prefer a Belgian of any hue to win rather than his own team member - surely that still means that DC are in disarray?

I mean if DC were the all seeing, all preparedness, all everything down the "t"
crossed and "i" dotted team that they've been painted by Armstrong and Bruyneel: how come Demol was hired in the first place? And how come he's been retained?
Either way, WBT is correct - DC are in some disarray.

Or maybe what we were told about all this so-called preparedness, the "t"
crossed and "i" dotted was waffle?

You guys are grasping at the straws here.

 

[tcklyde]

No, I am suggesting that Demol is way overplaced in terms of his knowledge. He won Paris Roubaix as a fluke in the role of domestique who got away by accident.

Would he rather Hoste come in second instead of George, absolutely.
No question.
He has not been exactly rocket scientist with strategy in the clssics. Recall he was the DS when Disco got smoked and left t the back wneh QS attacked last year in Flanders.

Yes, like the Bush administration, a shake up needs to happen in Disco.
With all the talent they have their classics results are poor.

You truly see conspiracy everywhere you look. It's a bike race and things happen. It's not the cold war.

 

[tcklyde]

OK - suppose for a moment that you're correct and Demol does in fact prefer a Belgian of any hue to win rather than his own team member - surely that still means that DC are in disarray?

I mean if DC were the all seeing, all preparedness, all everything down the "t"
crossed and "i" dotted team that they've been painted by Armstrong and Bruyneel: how come Demol was hired in the first place? And how come he's been retained?
Either way, WBT is correct - DC are in disarray.

Or maybe what we were told about all this so-called preparedness, the "t"
crossed and "i" dotted was waffle?

You guys are grasping at the straws here.

No doubt, there has been some miscommunication in the Disco camp, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are in disarray. There are some frustrated riders because they are coming up close but no cigar. Overall, however, in terms of ProTour teams, there results have been substantial and impressive.

I think we all agree that QS is the dominant classics team at the moment and are certainly working graciously together. That's very impressive given the enormous amount of ambitious talent on the team.