Coyotes

"Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

MikeYankee said:

I see coyotes occasionally in upstate NY. They have never been
aggressive.

That has been my experience in southern CA, where I saw coyotes on almost every
MTB ride. No worries.

I've seen mountain lions too. While that initially strikes fear (especially in
the case of a mother and cubs), I quickly realized the situation was OK. Seeing
a mountain lion in the wild is a rare treat. I feel very lucky to have had the
experience.

Quoted message said:

My biggest animal fear is having some stupid deer cross the road in
front of me while I'm descending at 40 mph.

Someone my mother knew was killed in such an accident, so I guess it does
happen. I was always wary of the deer crossing the road near my house very
evening. We always warned visitors to watch for them on the way over. Car or
bike, a collision could be nasty.

But my own biggest fear is a loose dog giving chase. People's greatest fear
about dogs is being bitten. In reality, a cyclist's greatest danger from dogs
is crashing.

Last June, a dog chased me and got under my front wheel, and I went over the
handlebars at 20 MPH. It happened so quickly there was no way I could have done
anything. Fortunately I wasn't hurt beyond road rash and bruises -- though my
shoulder is just now getting back to normal, and I'll have scars for awhile. A
friend wasn't so lucky in an identical accident a year and a half ago. She's
still undergoing reconstructive dental surgeries.

If people care about their dogs (and their fellow humans), they'll keep their
dogs fenced in or tied up.

I agree, even more so after this morning. Twice this morning joggers
with dogs ran out from trails onto the road right in front of me, on
the second I was doing 34 on a descent down a two lane road.
Fortunately, in both incidents I was able to veer very wide into the
other lane to miss the dogs but they were both unpredictable and a
concern. Had quite a few dogs running after me on other occasions,
nipping at the heels and creating very hazardous situations. Always
too busy trying to maneuver and pedal to defend; not happy times.

-rick

the black rose wrote:
:: Chalo wrote:
::: the black rose <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::
:::: I have a farmer's reaction to all those bleeding hearts
:::: who think it's criminal to kill a bambi. Yeah, they're real cute
:::: while they eat everything in your garden, including the flowers.
:::: They'll come for miles to eat a strawberry patch. They'll
:::: decimate your children's vegetable patch.
::::
:::: Rats with hooves.
:::
:::
::: Live in the city where _people_ belong,
::
:: That's the silliest statement I've seen all week.
::
:: Sorry Chalo, you just proved you're a troll. Unless you really
:: believe that -- in which case, you should hie yourself off to the
:: library and read a few years' worth of National Geographic magazine.
::
::: do your cultivation at a
::: community garden, and you'll never be troubled by deer eating your
::: vittles.
::
:: That's another silly statement. Around here, the deer regard the
:: community garden as an all-you-can-eat buffet.
::
::: Believing that wild critters don't have a right to exist out in the
::: hinterlands is second-guessing their Creator, don't you think?
::
:: I didn't say that.
::
:: There are too many deer. We tinkered with the ecosystem and killed
:: off too many of their predators. Here in the northeastern US they
:: don't have any effective predators; coyotes will run deer, but they
:: prefer smaller prey and don't kill enough to provide an effective
:: brake on the deer population. Wanna see what happens when we decide
:: to protect the cute little bambis?
::
:: http://depts.alverno.edu/nsmt/youngcc/research/kaibab/story1.html
::
:: -km
::
:: --
:: Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester
::
:: http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
:: proud to be owned by a yorkie

the black rose wrote:
:: Chalo wrote:
::: the black rose <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::
:::: I have a farmer's reaction to all those bleeding hearts
:::: who think it's criminal to kill a bambi. Yeah, they're real cute
:::: while they eat everything in your garden, including the flowers.
:::: They'll come for miles to eat a strawberry patch. They'll
:::: decimate your children's vegetable patch.
::::
:::: Rats with hooves.
:::
:::
::: Live in the city where _people_ belong,
::
:: That's the silliest statement I've seen all week.
::
:: Sorry Chalo, you just proved you're a troll. Unless you really
:: believe that -- in which case, you should hie yourself off to the
:: library and read a few years' worth of National Geographic magazine.
::
::: do your cultivation at a
::: community garden, and you'll never be troubled by deer eating your
::: vittles.
::
:: That's another silly statement. Around here, the deer regard the
:: community garden as an all-you-can-eat buffet.
::
::: Believing that wild critters don't have a right to exist out in the
::: hinterlands is second-guessing their Creator, don't you think?
::
:: I didn't say that.
::
:: There are too many deer. We tinkered with the ecosystem and killed
:: off too many of their predators. Here in the northeastern US they
:: don't have any effective predators; coyotes will run deer, but they
:: prefer smaller prey and don't kill enough to provide an effective
:: brake on the deer population. Wanna see what happens when we decide
:: to protect the cute little bambis?
::
:: http://depts.alverno.edu/nsmt/youngcc/research/kaibab/story1.html

That's what happens when man tries to out think mothernature and play God.

Why don' they bring back hunting? That would solve the problem quickly.

David Newman said:

at around 11,400', after we passed the visitor center and were
heading up towards the pass, we were nearly attacked by a coyote.

Coyotes above timberline are a little unusual but not unheard of.
Coyotes in and around RMNP are very acclimated to human presence. I'm
wondering if the original story teller was feeding the wildlife and
exagerrated Cujo's response for dramatic effect.

On my bike I've hit a squirrel and come close to hitting dogs, cats,
rabbits, birds, snakes, lizards, turtles, mule deer, and small
children. So far, I've also collided with three automobiles while
cycling. I've had to detour around bison, elk, and moose. Any coyotes
that I approach high-tail it quickly away from me whether I'm on foot
or bike.

RFM

Matt O'Toole said:

But my own biggest fear is a loose dog giving chase. People's greatest fear
about dogs is being bitten. In reality, a cyclist's greatest danger from dogs
is crashing.

There's a basis for people's fear of getting bitten: it happens. Older
lady in the local club showed me the scar on the back of her leg, just
above the ankle, where a loose doberman got her. She was laid up for a
month. I believe the dog was destroyed, but I'm not sure.

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester

http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
proud to be owned by a yorkie

the black rose said:

Chalo said:

the black rose said:

I have a farmer's reaction to all those bleeding hearts
who think it's criminal to kill a bambi. Yeah, they're real cute while
they eat everything in your garden, including the flowers. They'll come
for miles to eat a strawberry patch. They'll decimate your children's
vegetable patch.

Rats with hooves.

Live in the city where _people_ belong,

That's the silliest statement I've seen all week.

Sorry Chalo, you just proved you're a troll. Unless you really believe
that -- in which case, you should hie yourself off to the library and
read a few years' worth of National Geographic magazine.

There are far too many people anymore for them not to live
preponderantly in cities. Cities are the most resource-efficient
means for large numbers of people to exist in today's world.

To "solve" the problems which we have created with our untenable
living patterns, by killing off our fellow beings, is simply
unethical. The burden of mitigating our collective mess is ours, and
that means almost everybody should live in dense cities until and
unless we come up with something better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do your cultivation at a
community garden, and you'll never be troubled by deer eating your
vittles.

That's another silly statement. Around here, the deer regard the
community garden as an all-you-can-eat buffet.

I specifically used the word "city", not urban sprawl. I define
"city" narrowly when I say it's the most resource-efficient living
paradigm, or that deer don't eat city gardens. Burbs don't count.

Wild herbivores will only raid yards on the perimeter of a
non-sprawling city. If that bothers you, you can always live inside
the city.

Quoted message said:

There are too many deer. We tinkered with the ecosystem and killed off
too many of their predators. Here in the northeastern US they don't
have any effective predators; coyotes will run deer, but they prefer
smaller prey and don't kill enough to provide an effective brake on the
deer population. Wanna see what happens when we decide to protect the
cute little bambis?

http://depts.alverno.edu/nsmt/youngcc/research/kaibab/story1.html

That is a far better argument for the restoration of wolves and pumas
than it is an argument for the wholesale extermination of deer.

Addressing the problems that our selective slaughter of predators has
caused is not just a matter of exterminating even more species.
Persisting with a errant behavior tends to yield more of the same kind
of result.

Chalo Colina

Dogs, indeed.

Some stats from Sacks JJ, Kresnow M, Houston B. Dog bites: how big a
problem? Injury Prevention 1996;2:52-4.

"Annually in the United States 4.7 million people are bitten by dogs. Of
these, approximately 800,000 people require medical attention. That is, each
year 1.8% of the U.S. population is bitten by a dog, and 0.3% of the U.S.
population seeks medical care for a bite."

There's also the claim from a law firm specializing in dog bites
http://www.orange-county-lawyers.com/dog-bites.html
that "One-third of the money paid out through homeowners' liability claims
are related to dog attacks." and "In a twelve-month period from 1995 to
1996, at least 25 people in the U.S. have died from dog attacks, 20 of whom
were children."

--
Mike Kruger
The road to hell is now paved with PowerPoint presentations.

Quoted message said:

Blair P. Houghton [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

You have no idea how many heads that went over.

Of course, if anyone needs to know that figure they can just do a Google
search. <g>

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Chalo said:

Quoted message said:

http://depts.alverno.edu/nsmt/youngcc/research/kaibab/story1.html

That is a far better argument for the restoration of wolves and pumas
than it is an argument for the wholesale extermination of deer.

That was my point, but you were too busy making assumptions.

-km

--
Only cowards fight kids -- unidentified Moscow protester

http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
proud to be owned by a yorkie

Rick Warner said:

That is your perception, but it is incorrect. I worked, as a field
biologist, in the Sonoran desert for years. Trapped many coyotes,
weighed many coyotes, from the Mogollon rim down to the border with
Mexico. 25 pounds is a big coyote in that area. There is a lot of
fur, but not much substance.

Coyote size is definitely larger than that around here (western MA).
Forty pounds isn't unusual and 50-60 pounds *is* possible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've also seen small packs (4-5 dogs) run across the street in
my headlights. Not as innocuous as you think.

No, they are just as innocuous as I *know*, not think. Go back to my
background. Spend years working with animals and you know a lot more
than the urban myths and suppositions that seem to abound. The packs
are probably family units, mother and children; for the most part
coyotes are solitary and do not spend much time together except when
mating or when the young are being taught the ropes by mom. They do
not form regular packs like some of their cousins, e.g., gray wolves
and African hunting dogs.

Again, not entirely true around here. The Quabbin area, a very
large water reservoir for Boston in this area (they drowned 6 towns
in the 30's to build it) has at least 2 established "packs" of
coyotes resident numbering as high as 25 animals.

The large size is during the winter. The pack is very fluid breaking
up and reforming at various times.

It was largely believed deer were not prey of coyotes (the critters are
just too big for coyotes), but that has also been proved wrong in the
local population. They pack up to successfully bring down white tail
deer.

Quoted message said:

I've been within 10 feet of them at least a dozen times this year
while on my bike. As soon as they realize I am there they make from
the brush.

The suburban coyote is less likely to bolt, as is true with bears as
well. One thing that always impressed me about coyotes (one of my
favorite wild animals) is their "in your face" behavior. They don't
just run off into the brush trying to get away from you. They "lope"
off at a leisurely pace, with an occasional back glance to imply that
they don't feel they *have* to defer to you!

For an animal as heavily persecuted by man as the coyote, it's quite
impressive behavior to my mind.

SMH

Pbwalther said:

I have never heard of a documented case of a coyote killing a human. There are
certainly capable of killing a child but I think a healthy adult would be too
much for them. I do not recall ever running across a case where a wolf, a far
more formible predator then the coyote, has ever killed a human in North
America. To give you a perspective on wolves and coyotes, wolves view coyotes
as nice snacks. The eradication of the wolf is what allowed the coyote to
dramatically expand its range.

There are a couple cases of children being killed by coyotes
in the US within the past three or so years. In the two
cases I'm familiar with, the victims were babies left momentarily
unattended by the parent. The coyote appeared and hauled the
child off.

There was one case here in MA a year or two ago where the coyote
had grabbed an older child (I'm thinking around 5 or 6) and was
attempting to drag him off. A parent or adult intervened and the
child ended up with some wounds to the face and body instead of
becoming dinner.

Bites by rabid coyotes should be more a concern with than being
attacked as a potential dinner!

SMH

the black rose said:

Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

Yep. Lots of coyotes at Oxford. Billions of 'em.

(censored Durbin) said:

Having seen the environmental damage done by sheep in some parts of
the world, I'm rooting for the coyotes. We are using sheep in our
parks here in Tallahassee to control kudzu. They love the stuff and
will destroy a stand of kudzu in short order.

Awhile back, a group of animal rights activists was trying to end a
government program that paid bounties on coyotes in sheep country.
They proposed instead a program of distributing coyote bait that
controlled coyote populations by incorporating a substance that
diminished the male coyotes' sex drive.

At the public hearing, a rancher patiently explained to the
legislative committee and a delegation of do-gooders that the coyotes
were EATING sheep, not raping them.

Hunrobe said:

Quoted message said:

Blair P. Houghton [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

You have no idea how many heads that went over.

Of course, if anyone needs to know that figure they can just do a Google
search. <g>

Post a real smiley when you say that, pilgrim.

--Blair
"Hunrobe put the grim in pilgrim."

Rick Warner said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

Rick Warner said:

And if you do not want to believe me on the size of coyotes in the
Sonoran desert, here is from the web page of ASDM (Arizona Sonora
Desert Museum for those outside the area):

"Coyote: A coyote resembles a medium-sized dog with a long, bushy
black-tipped tail, big ears, and a pointy face. The fur color varies
from grayish to light brown, with a buffy or white underbelly. You’ll
never see a fat coyote in the wild. Wiry and with long, slender legs
and small feet, a desert coyote usually weighs only 15 to 25 pounds.
The tracks are much smaller than those of a domestic dog of the same
size."

Like I told you clearly. There are about a billion rabbits around
here. These coyotes are well fed.

Boy, you do not like facts do you.

I don't like argumentum ad verecundiam even more.

Quoted message said:

ASDM traps and weights coyotes in
that area regularly, I used to do it regularly. At the very, very,
very top end, a coyote in that area will run 30 pounds or so
regardless of how well fed it is, most adults are in the 20 pound
range. Those are *facts*, based on actual weights using actual
scales, not someone's supposition from seeing animals from a distance.
Facts is fact. Live with it.

Fact is, any number of grade-schoolers will tell you that
coyotes run up to 50 lbs. I may be slightly overestimating
the size of the one I rode past four times one day a
couple of weeks ago while he was progressively reduced to
yoatburger, but then, I underestimated the thickness of
your head, so we'll call it even.

http://www.google.com/search?q=coyote+weighs&hl=en&lr=lang_en&start=10&sa=N

--Blair
"Science is fun for those who know
what it's about."

the black rose said:

You're arguing with someone who thinks a Google search represents
statistical truth -- you might as well give up now.

You're trying to say that statistics aren't statistics. You
should give up before I explain why you gave up before you
started.

--Blair
"Republican sophistry is becoming
a way of life, apparently."

Curtis L. Russell said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

I don't think so. TV was invented before sound was added to movies.

Typical of your convolutions. Commercial beginnings of TV in the

Convolutions? I said "TV Was invented before sound was added to movies."

Nothing false about that.

--Blair
"You people just don't like freedom."

Rick Warner said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

What were you calling them in Wyoming and Arizona?

Ki-yo-tees. I grew up in that region, lived in both states back then
(and Colorado, Utah, and NM) and predate the cartoon. It was
ki-yo-tees before Wily ever chased a roadrunner.

All of my family from Wyoming, South Dakota, Kansas, and
Minnesota says "ki-yoats." Includes quite a fair number
of people who still qualify for BIA benefits.

--Blair
"Prior art."

the black rose said:

Blair P. Houghton said:

I don't think so. TV was invented before sound was added to movies.

*snort* *snort* *splat*

Dang it, now I have to wipe off my monitor.

Wow. Post a fact and watch the sophists heads explode.

--Blair
"Score one for me."

Zippy the Pinhead said:

the black rose said:

Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

Yep. Lots of coyotes at Oxford. Billions of 'em.

Daniel Webster may not have known the devil, but he knows
which pronunciation comes first:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=coyote

--Blair
"Yippie-ki-yay, little dogies."