coumadin ?

Mike Collins:

Quoted message said:

Not all herbalists are charlatans.

I'm aware of that, Mike. But sadly, too many of them are either charlatans or not well enough
educated to practice their trade safely.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

"Mike & Heather Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stev Not all herbalists are charlatans. I had a colleague who worked part time

in

Quoted message said:

the lab doing legitimate medical research and also ran his own herbal medicine practice.

No doubt there are some herbs that do have beneficial effects. The problem is that they are poorly
standardized, little researched, and unregulated (with a lot of batch to batch variation). For the
relief of certain symptoms where the therapeutic index is wide they may be appropriate.

In situations like the prevention of stroke the therapeutic index is tiny and herbal products
currently could not rise to that level of precision even if they are effective in theory.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand there were a number of remarkably successful treatments

of

Quoted message said:

asthma and eczema by Chinese herbs reported here a few years ago. At the same time there were
other reports of the analysis of herbs which had been sold for treatment of asthma which were
actually effective only because

they

Quoted message said:

had been soaked in solutions of corticosteroids which had then been

allowed

Quoted message said:

to dry on the outside of the herbs. So if you choose to go to a herbalist and avoid western
medicine you may end up being treated by the very drugs you are trying to avoid.

Red rice yeast is another example. It is billed as a cholesterol agent with the implied supposition
that it must be safer because it is natural. The main active ingredient is lovostatin (Mevacor,
Altocor), a drug that has come to be little used by doctors because there are more effective
versions available.

I wonder how often the herbalists who prescribe it check the liver enzymes or screen for myositis.

--
CBI, MD

"Mike & Heather Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stev Not all herbalists are charlatans. I had a colleague who

worked part time in

Quoted message said:

the lab doing legitimate medical research and also ran his

own herbal

Quoted message said:

medicine practice.

Fine, but if he treated A-fib with herbs he was a charlatin.

Herbal effects on clotting tend to be mild, and where they occur, tend to be platelet-related.
Antiplatelet agents don't work for preventing A-fib stroke, so you're pretty much out of the
game there.

In order to prevent stroke with A-fib you need to anticoagulate to a quite significant extent-- a
place you don't dare stay without frequent monitoring of your clotting system. Even if there WAS an
herb that could put you there (I will bet dinner there is none-- my own knowledge of real and
scientifically studied effects of herbs is not small), what herbalist would run the PT INR tests to
make sure you stayed there?

This whole conversation is surreal.

SBH

tools:

Quoted message said:

Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and >digoxin are not Natural

remedys

I'm quite aware of it. I'm also quite aware of the danger of using herbal preparations that are not
standardized, not quality controlled, not subject to purity standards, and not prescribed by someone
with a medical degree.

Should you wish to subject your body to such materials, it is a free country. When you recommend
some one else forego treatment by a licensed physician for your alternatives, then you've
overstepped your abilities and knowledge. I don't care how many years you may have studied herbals.
There will come a time when your potions fail to save your failing body and you come crawling in the
ER door. And then, the people you feel have wasted their time getting an education in medical
sciences will do their best to save your sorry body.
--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

Too much O2 will too, so?

Quoted message said:

What horror stories would you like? The kids who

mistook Datura for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something less potent and blew their livers apart?

Oh I want to hear this one. What did the kid "mistake it

for?

Quoted message said:

The young woman who was

Quoted message said:

upset because her husband went deer hunting and got back

at him by

Quoted message said:

consuming

Quoted message said:

two large boxes of D-Con and someone else's digoxin?

Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and digoxin are

not Natural

Quoted message said:

remedys.

Digoxin is not a natural remedy? What would herbalists prefer-- ground up foxglove leaf, as of old?
(Days of old = about 1960). That would give you mostly digitoxin (note spelling) but there's digoxin
in natural foxglove as well. It just happened to be the component that won out in pharmacy for ease
of use. They still get it from the plant, I'm pretty sure. It's as natural as you can get, rather
like penicillin G, morphine, and so on.

SBH

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Uh, please post anything you can find anywhere that I have said that UT

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the answer to all disease. If you do not post such, then you sir are

lying.

Quoted message said:

Not that such a thing would be anything new or with which you do not

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

experience.

What diseases is it not suggested for? Name them and explain why. I also note that you never
answered my questions about fungal infections. erf

Ahhh dawg, do your own research.

Steve Harris said:

"Mike & Heather Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stev Not all herbalists are charlatans. I had a colleague who

worked part time in

Quoted message said:

the lab doing legitimate medical research and also ran his

own herbal

Quoted message said:

medicine practice.

Fine, but if he treated A-fib with herbs he was a charlatin.

Herbal effects on clotting tend to be mild, and where they occur, tend to be platelet-related.
Antiplatelet agents don't work for preventing A-fib stroke, so you're pretty much out of the
game there.

In order to prevent stroke with A-fib you need to anticoagulate to a quite significant extent-- a
place you don't dare stay without frequent monitoring of your clotting system. Even if there WAS
an herb that could put you there (I will bet dinner there is none-- my own knowledge of real and
scientifically studied effects of herbs is not small), what herbalist would run the PT INR tests
to make sure you stayed there?

This whole conversation is surreal.

SBH

There seems to be a repetitive argument which is going nowhere. Speaking of platelets and coumadin
there was an interesting finding concerning metastatic epithelial cancers and the protective
impact of heparin very early on. They noticed that patients placed on heparin had a somewhat
protective effect on preventing metastasis. A hematologist here at UCSD is trying to do research
on that point. They assumed that it was the anticoagulant affect of the heparin at first and
therefore tried using coumadin instead. The coumadin did not have the same affect. As it turns out
cancer cells in the blood circulate with a protective cloud of platelets surrounding the cancer
cells preventing macrophage exposure. It wasn't the anticoagulant but something in the heparin is
interacting with sialic acid residues and preventing this platelet cloud and thus the cancer cells
can not survive. He is trying to get money for doing a study on putting patients on heparin before
metastasis peri or post surgery.

"slenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Collins:

Quoted message said:

Not all herbalists are charlatans.

I'm aware of that, Mike. But sadly, too many of them are either

charlatans

Quoted message said:

or not well enough educated to practice their trade safely.

Pot......Kettle.................Black

"slenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tools:

Quoted message said:

Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and >digoxin are not Natural

remedys

I'm quite aware of it. I'm also quite aware of the danger of using herbal preparations that are
not standardized, not quality controlled, not

subject

Quoted message said:

to purity standards, and not prescribed by someone with a medical degree.

Should you wish to subject your body to such materials, it is a free country. When you recommend
some one else forego treatment by a licensed physician for your alternatives, then you've
overstepped your abilities

and

Quoted message said:

knowledge. I don't care how many years you may have studied herbals.

There

Quoted message said:

will come a time when your potions fail to save your failing body and you come crawling in the ER
door. And then, the people you feel have wasted their time getting an education in medical
sciences will do their best to save your sorry body.
--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

Don't hold your breath.

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

Too much O2 will too, so?

Quoted message said:

What horror stories would you like? The kids who

mistook Datura for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something less potent and blew their livers apart?

Oh I want to hear this one. What did the kid "mistake it

for?

Quoted message said:

The young woman who was

Quoted message said:

upset because her husband went deer hunting and got back

at him by

Quoted message said:

consuming

Quoted message said:

two large boxes of D-Con and someone else's digoxin?

Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and digoxin are

not Natural

Quoted message said:

remedys.

Digoxin is not a natural remedy? What would herbalists prefer-- ground up foxglove leaf, as of
old? (Days of old = about 1960). That would give you mostly digitoxin (note spelling) but there's
digoxin in natural foxglove as well. It just happened to be the component that won out in pharmacy
for ease of use. They still get it from the plant, I'm pretty sure. It's as natural as you can
get, rather like penicillin G, morphine, and so on.

SBH

Ummm, perhaps it's the processing that divides natural and not?

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Uh, please post anything you can find anywhere that I have said that

UT

Quoted message said:

is the answer to all disease. If you do not post such, then you sir are

Quoted message said:

lying. Not that such a thing would be anything new or with which you do

not

Quoted message said:

have experience.

Quoted message said:

What diseases is it not suggested for? Name them and explain why. I

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

note that you never answered my questions about fungal infections.

Ahhh dawg, do your own research.

I have. There really isn't much available which is why I ask you, the self proclaimed expert. I
don't believe that you can answer my questions. I think that you avoid them because you can't form a
cogent on topic response. And I point this out as a warning to people who might consider trying your
recommended cures. You're slacker that the evil MDs you trash. You are what you despise. erf

tools:

Quoted message said:

Don't hold your breath.

I have no need to. Time, science, human nature, and history are on my side.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Uh, please post anything you can find anywhere that I have said that

UT

Quoted message said:

is the answer to all disease. If you do not post such, then you sir are

Quoted message said:

lying. Not that such a thing would be anything new or with which you

do

Quoted message said:

not

Quoted message said:

have experience.

Quoted message said:

What diseases is it not suggested for? Name them and explain why. I

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

note that you never answered my questions about fungal infections.

Ahhh dawg, do your own research.

I have. There really isn't much available which is why I ask you, the

self

Quoted message said:

proclaimed expert. I don't believe that you can answer my questions. I think that you avoid them
because you can't form a cogent on topic

response.

Quoted message said:

And I point this out as a warning to people who might consider trying your recommended cures.
You're slacker that the evil MDs you trash. You are what you despise. erf

Yawn...............................

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

t...

Quoted message said:

Too much O2 will too, so?
> What horror stories would you like? The kids who

mistook Datura for

Quoted message said:

> something less potent and blew their livers apart?
Oh I want to hear this one. What did the kid "mistake

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for?

Quoted message said:

The young woman who was
> upset because her husband went deer hunting and got

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at him by

Quoted message said:

consuming
> two large boxes of D-Con and someone else's digoxin?
Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and digoxin

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not Natural

Quoted message said:

remedys.

Digoxin is not a natural remedy? What would herbalists prefer-- ground up foxglove leaf, as of
old? (Days of

old =

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 1960). That would give you mostly digitoxin (note spelling) but there's digoxin in natural
foxglove as

well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It just happened to be the component that won out in pharmacy for ease of use. They still get it
from the

plant,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure. It's as natural as you can get, rather

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penicillin G, morphine, and so on.

SBH

Ummm, perhaps it's the processing that divides natural and

not?

Why should it? When the digitoxin is in your bloodstream, how is your heart to know whether it came
from a pill or ground up foxglove leaf?

"slenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tools:

Quoted message said:

Don't hold your breath.

I have no need to. Time, science, human nature, and history are on my

side.

Quoted message said:

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

Well one thing is clear. You do not hold your breath, you blather on.............

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

Ummm, perhaps it's the processing that divides natural and

not?

Why should it? When the digitoxin is in your bloodstream, how is your heart to know whether it
came from a pill or ground up foxglove leaf?

And in any case, ground up foxglove leaf is "processed" by any reasonable definition of the term. I
suspect the "all natural" crowd draws the line, whether they're really aware of it or not, at any
sort of processing that could be regarded as *industrial*. I think what's going on is a combination
of a romantic rejection of the Industrial Revolution combined with a ritual purity concern about
crossing category boundaries (it's appropriate to put products of agriculture into your body, but
not products of industry).

There are some obvious exceptions to this, like the rawists who consider cooking an unacceptable
form of "processing," but those exceptions are mostly on the fringes.

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

t...
> Too much O2 will too, so?
> > What horror stories would you like? The kids who
mistook Datura for
> > something less potent and blew their livers apart?
> Oh I want to hear this one. What did the kid "mistake

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for?
> The young woman who was
> > upset because her husband went deer hunting and got

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at him by
> consuming
> > two large boxes of D-Con and someone else's digoxin?
> Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and digoxin

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not Natural
> remedys.

Digoxin is not a natural remedy? What would herbalists prefer-- ground up foxglove leaf, as of
old? (Days of

old =

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 1960). That would give you mostly digitoxin (note spelling) but there's digoxin in
natural foxglove as

well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It just happened to be the component that won out in pharmacy for ease of use. They still get
it from the

plant,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty sure. It's as natural as you can get, rather

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penicillin G, morphine, and so on.

SBH

Ummm, perhaps it's the processing that divides natural and

not?

Why should it? When the digitoxin is in your bloodstream, how is your heart to know whether it
came from a pill or ground up foxglove leaf?

You should address your question to your heart, and all the other parts too.

tools:

Quoted message said:

Well one thing is clear. You do not hold your breath, >you blather

on.............

And you keep hoping for the last word. Have it, but do staunch your bleeding first.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]
t...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

t...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>

"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> t...
> > Too much O2 will too, so?
> > > What horror stories would you like? The kids

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mistook Datura for
> > > something less potent and blew their livers

apart?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Oh I want to hear this one. What did the kid

"mistake

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it

Quoted message said:

> for?
> > The young woman who was
> > > upset because her husband went deer hunting and

got

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

back

Quoted message said:

> at him by
> > consuming
> > > two large boxes of D-Con and someone else's

digoxin?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Ummmm, You might not know this, but, D-con and

digoxin

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

> not Natural
> > remedys.
>
>
>
> Digoxin is not a natural remedy? What would

herbalists

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> prefer-- ground up foxglove leaf, as of old? (Days

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

old =

Quoted message said:

> about 1960). That would give you mostly digitoxin

(note

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> spelling) but there's digoxin in natural foxglove as

well.

Quoted message said:

> It just happened to be the component that won out in pharmacy for ease of use. They still
> get it from the

plant,

Quoted message said:

> I'm pretty sure. It's as natural as you can get,

rather

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like

Quoted message said:

> penicillin G, morphine, and so on.
>
> SBH
>
>
Ummm, perhaps it's the processing that divides natural

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not?

Why should it? When the digitoxin is in your

bloodstream,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how is your heart to know whether it came from a pill or ground up foxglove leaf?

You should address your question to your >heart, and all

the other parts too.

What for? I don't think my body parts have magic powers. If you think yours do, then you can join
Supreme8007 in the aluminum foil hat set.

SBH

"Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And in any case, ground up foxglove leaf is "processed" by

any reasonable

Quoted message said:

definition of the term. I suspect the "all natural" crowd

draws the line,

Quoted message said:

whether they're really aware of it or not, at any sort of

processing that

Quoted message said:

could be regarded as *industrial*. I think what's going

on is a

Quoted message said:

combination of a romantic rejection of the Industrial

Revolution combined

Quoted message said:

with a ritual purity concern about crossing category

boundaries (it's

Quoted message said:

appropriate to put products of agriculture into your body,

but not products

Quoted message said:

of industry).

Look, these are not Amish we're arguing with, but people who own computers. And probably not pedal
powered computers, either.

I occasionally meet people on the net who claim to be NatureBoys, sitting around in hemp clothes
that they wove themselves, eating nothing but organic produce out of their own gardens. I have a
word for such people: lying [censored].

There exist people who live that way, but they don't have time for the net. They work too hard
trudging through manure all day.

SBH