coumadin ?

"Richard Cavell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mick Williams, Jr." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

My question: What, if anything, can my father do to avoid taking this?

He can choose to not take it altogether. There are medications like

aspirin

Quoted message said:

that will be of some benefit, but much less than warfarin.

Quoted message said:

to be desired. Is a lifestyle change enough to stagger the necessity of taking blood-thinning
medication?

No.

Warfarin? Oh yeah, that's the stuff that gives rat poison it's "kick".

How very alternative! "wc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sir,

You're trying to outguess the doctor (s). They don't put patients on warfarin lightly, it will
extend their lives. They are aware of the serious side effects. You must be too, and avoid them.

The most important thing to do when taking warfarin is to follow through on the lab test ordered .
. . "Pro times" (prothrombin time). That lets the Doctor regulate the dosage. Without the drug,
your father could expire, it's that simple. Take the dose ordered, when ordered, in the amount
ordered, based on the laboratory tests ordered by the doctor.

Do what the doctor says, and for his sake, forget the suggestion to take herbs.

Will, crna

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than drugs. Tell us , how long did
you study herbal medicine? "slenon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mick:

Quoted message said:

My question: What, if anything, can my father do to avoid taking this? He is not in the best of
health, and his diet leaves something to be desired. Is a lifestyle change enough to stagger the
necessity of taking blood-thinning medication?

Under no circumstances listen to anyone advising you to seek alternative therapy for your father's
illness. There is no substitute for coumadin therapy in this situation. Anyone advising you
otherwise is dispensing

bad

Quoted message said:

advice and should your father follow such advice, he will shorten his

life.

Quoted message said:

Wishing that alternative medicine worked as well as Western medicine will never make it so.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

--

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jr.) said:

Hi

My father has just been informed by his Dr. that he will need to start taking this drug for
atrial fibrillation. He is 64 and deathly afraid of taking coumadin.

I don't know why he is so afraid of this drug. I had AF but had ablation for it at the same time
as a replacement mitral valve. Most of the time now I am in sinus rhythm but will still take
coumadin for the rest of my life because of the new valve. Its not a problem; just inconvenient
having regular tests. I have not met anyone who cannot tolerate it. Diana

Quoted message said:

The likeliest reason that he is afraid of this drug is the mistrust of medicine that is propagated
by anti-science fear mongers. This starts with the universal whine of quacks everywhere that,
"'They' are suppressing my miracle cure." Then the people with paranoid tendencies who have never
met a conspiracy theory that they didn't like, take up the cry and shout from every soapbox that
doctors are out to hurt you just to make more money. Then a patients natural (and healthy) doubts
about a prescribed therapy that is potentially dangerous gets amplified by his well-meaning but
ill-informed friends and relatives and their concepts of "natural healing." This is how people get
harmed by "alternative medicine."

--Rich

"Beth Gottschalk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are a number of natural blood-thinning supplements. You might want to look up garlic,
valerian, red clover > enough to find a doctor who

is also familiar with alternative medicine

Quoted message said:

(look for the letters "DO" along with "MD"😉 and/or read up on everything you can find in Google
(including side effects for each thing you find!) your father may not have to take the coumadin.

And be sure to ask about the studies done on them - particularly how they are monitored and the
rosks of beeding versus the risk of stroke with each.

Remember - if it is thinning your bood - there will be an increased risk of bleeding. If there
is no risk of bleeding then it must not be thinning the blood (or they just haven't done the
studies to look).

Quoted message said:

I ran into the same problem and was afraid of the coumadin and other prescriptions. Currently I'm
using supplements and so far, apparently, so good. However, I'm not a doctor, so of course all
this is simply by

way

Quoted message said:

of suggestion.

This is dangerous logic! If I put one bullet in a six shooter, hold the gun to my head, and pull the
trigger I will be fine 5 out of 6 times. That doesn't mean it is a good idea or my idea of safe.

Chances are if he does not take the Coumadin he will be fine. If he takes the Comedian the chances
are slightly better that he will be fine. If he takes an herbal supplement nobody knows what his
chances are.

--
CBI, MD

Beth Gottschalk said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Mick

Williams said:

Hi

My father has just been informed by his Dr. that he will need to start taking this drug for atrial
fibrillation. He is 64 and deathly afraid of taking coumadin. Several people he knew (including
his brother, whom I believe died of complications while on coumadin) have not had much luck on
this medication.

I have been looking online for alternatives, and the information I have found seems to be both
dated and conflicting.

My question: What, if anything, can my father do to avoid taking this? He is not in the best of
health, and his diet leaves something to be desired. Is a lifestyle change enough to stagger the
necessity of taking blood-thinning medication?

There are a number of natural blood-thinning supplements. You might want to look up garlic,
valerian, red clover<etc., etc. If you are lucky enough to find a doctor who is also familiar with
alternative medicine (look for the letters "DO" along with "MD"😉 and/or read up on everything you
can find in Google (including side effects for each thing you find!) your father may not have to
take the coumadin.

For what it's worth, CoQ10 has been credited with modifying the arrhythmia or in some cases, I
think, overcoming it. Also, there are procedures (some less drastic than others) that I understand
can restore natural heart rhythm. I've also read that, according to one opinion, the rhythm is
less important than the heart rate.

I ran into the same problem and was afraid of the coumadin and other prescriptions. Currently I'm
using supplements and so far, apparently, so good. However, I'm not a doctor, so of course all
this is simply by way of suggestion.

If you go an alternate route, make sure the drug or herbal that you take affects the appropriate
clotting factors. Google on warfarin clotting factors and you'll find a lot of information on this.

FurPaw

--
There's no reason to give credence to anything spoken above 90 decibels.

To reply, unleash the dog.

On Mon, 12 May 2003 02:14:26 -0400, JEDilworth <[email hidden]> wrote:

. Her doctor said she was the first patient of his who had had a

Quoted message said:

stroke post-surgery in over two years, and this was a large hospital and a very busy group.

This surprises me a bit, as, before my valve surgery last Nov I was told that the two major possible
risks were 1) death and 2) stroke. I did have a little stroke (not sure how a stroke is quantified)
and could not use my right hand for a couple of weeks. The symptoms wore off gradually i.e. it was
not a TIA. Incidentally, I had to push for my valve surgery as, in the UK, many patients don't get
their surgery in good time unless they pay for it. I will always have to take warfarin and never
give it much thought. Diana

Beth Gottschalk <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also, there are procedures (some less drastic than others) that I understand can restore natural
heart rhythm. I've also read that, according to one opinion, the rhythm is less important than the
heart rate.

Since there are indications that heart-rate variability can be used as a diagnostic/prognostic tool
in (some) heart diseases, I don't think it's true that heart rythm is less important. For example,
it has been shown that fractal scaling of HRV breaks down in patients with congestive heart failure;
even to the point of being totally absent, so that HRV becomes more or less random. It has also been
suggested that fractal analysis of heart rythm may carry prognostic information that can't be
extracted by conventional indices. (look, for example, here :
reylab.bidmc.harvard.edunode9.htmlOpen ↗ and
reylab.bidmc.harvard.edunode10.htmlOpen ↗).

--

Robert Bronsing

Can't you see? It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds,
shillings and pence

(R. Waters)

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't give advice on life and death matters, if you're completely clueless about the subject
you're talking about.

SBH

Steve, you would do well to follow your own advice.

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than drugs. Tell us , how long
did you study herbal medicine?

Coumadin has been well-studied in uncountable controlled trials over the last 50 years and it's
efficacy really isn't debateable. Like most alternative-medicine whackos you are obviously unable to
provide ANY scientific evidence that ANY alternative medicine approach to anticoagulation will work.
Wishing won't make it so, yet you and your ilk seem to feel that it you bark loudly and persistently
enough, that will make up for the lack of science involved.

If you want to play Russian roulette with your own life, that's your choice. But any reasonable
person with a shred of objectivity would refrain from giving public advice about dangerous medical
conditions they know nothing about, and using treatments that are unproven beyond anecdotes and
wishful thinking.

HMc

tools:

Quoted message said:

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than

drugs.

Quoted message said:

Tell us , how long did you study herbal medicine?

Pehaps you should be asking how many patients I've helped work up after some alternative or hebal
practitioner convinced them to forego their standardized, quality controlled medications prescribed
by an MD or DO, and in doing so, damned near killed them. Perhaps you might ask how many posts I've
assisted at because someone followed the advice of an unqualified wannabe doctor.

I've not wasted my time studying how to treat serious illnesses with herbal preparations. I've been
too busy helping clean up the mess that herbal practitioners cause.

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

tools said:

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than drugs.

I agree, but this is NOT one of them!

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense
with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

"CBI" <[email hidden] *must have "Re:" in subject*> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Chances are if he does not take the Coumadin he will be fine. If he takes the Comedian the chances
are slightly better that he will be

Attack of the killer spell-checker? One of the Chicago Tribune's web pages carried a review of a
restaurant called La Cocina Criolla. The author valiantly fought the spell-checker, but one instance
of "La Cocaine Criolla" got through.

Quoted message said:

fine. If he takes an herbal supplement nobody knows what his chances are.

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The likeliest reason that he is afraid of this drug is the mistrust of medicine that is propagated
by anti-science fear mongers.

But I thought that the Alts were only a few misguided souls according to you and others in your
camp. This starts with

Quoted message said:

the universal whine of quacks everywhere that, "'They' are suppressing my miracle cure."

Is that anything like "they don't believe in my mirical drug. and they have questions about the
numbers of people harmed or killed by my Conventional medicine"?

Then the people with paranoid tendencies who have never met a

Quoted message said:

conspiracy theory that they didn't like,

Like those people who are fearful that Alternative Medicine might do a better job? take up the cry
and shout from

Quoted message said:

every soapbox that doctors are out to hurt you just to make more money.

And we all know poverty stricken those "doctors" are. Then

Quoted message said:

a patients natural (and healthy) doubts about a prescribed therapy that is potentially dangerous
gets amplified by his well-meaning but ill-informed friends and relatives and their concepts of
"natural healing."

Hmmmm, seems that you and your compatrates might be "ill-informed" about natural medicine,. But
what the hell, not being educated in the full spectrum of medical options has not slowed you any.
This is how

Quoted message said:

people get harmed by "alternative medicine."

--Rich

Rich, you would do well to get educated about
Natural Medicine, before you show how little you
know.

"CBI" <[email hidden] *must have "Re:" in subject*> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chances are if he does not take the Coumadin he will be fine. If he takes the Comedian the chances
are slightly better that he will be fine. If he takes an herbal supplement nobody knows what his
chances are.

--
CBI, MD

Far better chance is that cbi,md, knows nothing about herbal medicine.

"FurPaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Beth Gottschalk said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Mick

Williams said:

Hi

My father has just been informed by his Dr. that he will need to start taking this drug for
atrial fibrillation. He is 64 and deathly afraid of taking coumadin. Several people he knew
(including his brother, whom I believe died of complications while on coumadin) have not had
much luck on this medication.

I have been looking online for alternatives, and the information I have found seems to be both
dated and conflicting.

My question: What, if anything, can my father do to avoid taking this? He is not in the best of
health, and his diet leaves something to be desired. Is a lifestyle change enough to stagger the
necessity of taking blood-thinning medication?

There are a number of natural blood-thinning supplements. You might want to look up garlic,
valerian, red clover<etc., etc. If you are

lucky

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

enough to find a doctor who is also familiar with alternative medicine (look for the letters
"DO" along with "MD"😉 and/or read up on everything you can find in Google (including side
effects for each thing you find!) your father may not have to take the coumadin.

For what it's worth, CoQ10 has been credited with modifying the arrhythmia or in some cases, I
think, overcoming it. Also, there are procedures (some less drastic than others) that I
understand can restore natural heart rhythm. I've also read that, according to one opinion,

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rhythm is less important than the heart rate.

I ran into the same problem and was afraid of the coumadin and other prescriptions. Currently
I'm using supplements and so far, apparently, so good. However, I'm not a doctor, so of course
all this is simply by

way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of suggestion.

If you go an alternate route, make sure the drug or herbal that you take affects the
appropriate clotting factors. Google on warfarin clotting factors and you'll find a lot of
information on this.

FurPaw

--
There's no reason to give credence to anything spoken above 90 decibels.

To reply, unleash the dog.

Wow! good advice, will wonders never cease?

"FurPaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you go an alternate route, make sure the drug or herbal that you take affects the appropriate
clotting factors. Google on warfarin clotting factors and you'll find a

lot

Quoted message said:

of information on this.

FurPaw

Yes, and first slay 3 dragons and pass over the Cavern of Doom.

Furpaw, you do realize you're asking the ridiculously impossible?

SBH

In article said:

tools:

Quoted message said:

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than

drugs.

Quoted message said:

Tell us , how long did you study herbal medicine?

Pehaps you should be asking how many patients I've helped work up after some alternative or hebal
practitioner convinced them to forego their standardized, quality controlled medications prescribed
by an MD or DO, and in doing so, damned near killed them. Perhaps you might ask how many posts I've
assisted at because someone followed the advice of an unqualified wannabe doctor.

Tools is being particularly stupid here because coumadin is a coumarin, and coumarins are vitamin K
antagonist anticoagulants found naturally in stressed sweet clover. They were discovered when dairy
farmers asked the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF) to fund research into why their cattle
died from internal bleeding after grazing on frost-burned or drought-stressed forage. The first use
for this was the rat poison warfarin (note the name) which takes long enouhg to kill the rat that it
doesn't make the connection between its illness and the bait. Later, the medical use was developed.
So just like digitalis, it's a botanical drug too dangerous to be used without the kind of carefully
managed dosing that can only be achieved with a purified form, since the content of the plants
varies much too widely.

Quoted message said:

I've not wasted my time studying how to treat serious illnesses with herbal preparations. I've been
too busy helping clean up the mess that herbal practitioners cause.

What have you been seeing, Stev? Is it mostly people who get into big trouble by futzing around with
"alternatives" until the disease they're trying to treat gets too severe? Or is it people who
destroy their livers with natural herbs like comfrey and chapparal? I don't suppose you'd include
children poisoned by eating cigarettes or people who consume other natural herbal materials like
strychnine, or plants like oleander.

In article <[email hidden]>, tools

Quoted message said:

"Steve Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't give advice on life and death matters, if you're completely clueless about the subject
you're talking about.

SBH

Steve, you would do well to follow your own advice.

As a guy who thinks the answer to all diseases is a heaping glass of urine, you're in a poor
position to criticize.

Dr Harris usually can cite the literature. Can you?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always
correct. "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my
shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article 'slenon said:

From: "slenon" <[email hidden]> Subject: Re: coumadin ? Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:54:41 GMT

Quoted message said:

tools:

Quoted message said:

You are full of it. Many many times Alternative is better, safer, than

drugs.

Quoted message said:

Tell us , how long did you study herbal medicine?

Quoted message said:

Pehaps you should be asking how many patients I've helped work up after some alternative or hebal
practitioner convinced them to forego their standardized, quality controlled medications prescribed
by an MD or DO, and in doing so, damned near killed them. Perhaps you might ask how many posts I've
assisted at because someone followed the advice of an unqualified wannabe doctor.

Quoted message said:

I've not wasted my time studying how to treat serious illnesses with herbal preparations. I've been
too busy helping clean up the mess that herbal practitioners cause.

Quoted message said:

--
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) Confused? Listen to the music play! Save a cow, eat a PETA member
[email hidden] web.tampabay.rr.comslhomepage92kword.htmOpen ↗

Stev, Sometimes it is better to ignore the zealots of "alternative therapy". How quickly they have
forgotten that for centuries, the only medicines we had at our disposal were "herbal" and other
"natural" products. However, Europe still lost about one third of its population on too many
occassions due to various plagues, bubonic, typhus, scarlet fever, to name a few. It is my opinion
that while some "alternative" modalities may indeed play some role in treatment, the modern
"herbalists" are little more than 21st Century "snake-oil" salespersons. Their only interest is in
enriching their wallet at the expense of patient lives. Good luck, C U L8R! Wiz <{;-) Glenn
Wizard57M Glenn Gilbreath Jr. Registered Pharmacist
/index.htm"]http:[email hidden]/index.htm -- DOS Internet, Close Windows and Keep
the Internet Open! --