Can you make it to the market on a bike?

[William]

On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> that.
>
> Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> hour bike ride.

I don't blame you, biking works best
when everything is
more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> trip.
>
> So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> by bike.

Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
from nowhere land.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:

> So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> by bike.

Pat, a big underlying cause of it all is called THE SPRAWL. Our cities
have been designed around the car, and, regrettably, we often have to
rely on it to get places, say, over 5 miles. Nobody is saying to ban
cars here. A car makes sense sometimes, and it doesn't in others. We
are trying to address here those instances where the bike is both
doable and desirable. And connecting shopping areas by bike lanes and
bike paths is a good way to encourage people to get out there and do
something for the environment and for themselves.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> >http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/
>
> They don't really help. And they've been shown not to help and we can
> see them not helping in practice.

Are you saying that those committed cyclists are stupid and that they
don't know what they are asking for? Remember they are not kids, but
real cyclists that tell you the real problems out there. How more real
can you get?

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> > that.
>
> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> > hour bike ride.
>
> I don't blame you, biking works best
> when everything is
> more central and dense like a metro area.
>
>
>
> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> > trip.
>
> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> > by bike.
>
> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> from nowhere land.

I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
me, because I don't wear a watch.

You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
that's what makes it nice.

On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
excitement around here.

Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.

So what about this "quality" thing?

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:48 am, [email protected] wrote:

> Don't expect the police to take the role of your Mommy, to hold your
> hand and tell the other guy he's being bad. You've got a right to the
> road. Use it! Don't give any satisfaction to the jerks, and don't
> let them worry you.
>
> And for God's sake, stop whining!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Oh sure. And what you got to show for it, 1% of ridership? I guess 99%
of Americans don't have the balls to go and out there and ride either.
Actually, they go for the biggest SUV they can possibly find just to
play it safe. "Mom, I want an SUV!"

http://www.beststuff.com/images/articles/042604a.jpg

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you,
>> > > > but
>> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
>> > > > If you
>> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
>> > > > maligned
>> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to
>> > > > use
>> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>>
>> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
>> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>>
>> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO
>> > > WE
>> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
>> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
>> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
>> > that.
>>
>> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
>> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
>> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
>> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>>
>> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
>> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
>> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
>> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
>> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
>> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
>> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
>> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
>> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
>> > hour bike ride.
>>
>> I don't blame you, biking works best
>> when everything is
>> more central and dense like a metro area.
>>
>>
>>
>> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
>> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
>> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
>> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
>> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
>> > trip.
>>
>> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
>> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
>> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
>> > by bike.
>>
>> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
>> from nowhere land.
>
> I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> that's what makes it nice.
>
> On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> excitement around here.
>
> Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> So what about this "quality" thing?

If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start four-laning
the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around it
and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality, and
a more bike-friendly environment.

-Amy

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 12:39 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you,
> >> > > > but
> >> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
> >> > > > If you
> >> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
> >> > > > maligned
> >> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to
> >> > > > use
> >> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> >> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> >> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> >> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO
> >> > > WE
> >> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> >> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> >> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> >> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> >> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> >> > that.
>
> >> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> >> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> >> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> >> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> >> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> >> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> >> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> >> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> >> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> >> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> >> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> >> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> >> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> >> > hour bike ride.
>
> >> I don't blame you, biking works best
> >> when everything is
> >> more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> >> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> >> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> >> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> >> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> >> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> >> > trip.
>
> >> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> >> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> >> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> >> > by bike.
>
> >> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> >> from nowhere land.
>
> > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> > that's what makes it nice.
>
> > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> > excitement around here.
>
> > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> > So what about this "quality" thing?
>
> If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start four-laning
> the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
> less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
> insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around it
> and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality, and
> a more bike-friendly environment.
>
> -Amy

Man, I am dating myself, but remember the days when a few bigger
grocery stores out build next to a department store and share a common
entrance. It was like a Jamesway next to a Shop Rite. Jamesway,
Barkers and others all did that, here and there. You could go between
the stores, up at the front.

Now, all of those departments stores are closed. Must not have been
such a good idea.

The thing is, people LIKE Walmart. Maybe you don't and William
doesn't, but there are sure a whole lot of people out there who do.

We'd like one here. The sales tax revenue would help the city coffers
and people wouldn't have to drive so far to buy skivies.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 12:12 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> excitement around here.
>

Though I live next to glamorous South Beach in Miami, I still find the
canoe the most exciting thing, and I got one ready to launch...

In South Beach you find quite a bit of biking particulary because
parking is so limited. Hardly any bike lanes, but people enjoy the
"safety in numbers," I guess. Same situation in Key West. So limited
parking is a good thing for biking. Scooters too are a good option for
some --like me-- beyond the distance doable in a bike. MULTIMODAL
TRANSPORTATION IS THE WAY TO GO, meaning bicycles, public
transportation, fast trains and, of course, cars, which include
carpooling, car sharing, etc.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:07 am, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:

> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase in
> riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...
>
> cheers,
> clive

In what way? It sounds like terrorism to me...

 

[Clive George]

"donquijote1954" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 11:07 am, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
>> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase
>> in
>> riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...
>>
>
> In what way? It sounds like terrorism to me...

There's a good reason for that...

(what it did was put people off using PT, so they gave bikes a try - it was
summer.)

cheers,
clive

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/
> >
> > They don't really help. And they've been shown not to help and we can
> > see them not helping in practice.
>
> Are you saying that those committed cyclists are stupid and that they
> don't know what they are asking for? Remember they are not kids, but
> real cyclists that tell you the real problems out there. How more real
> can you get?
>

Lessons in life are often counter-intuitive.

Separated bike lanes are fine where they are separated, it's just that
sooner or later you have to have a junction and if you have more
separated lanes you end up with more complex junctions and that's where
the accidents happen.

What good is it if you decrease the accident rate at point 'a' along
a route and at the same time increase it at point 'b' along a route such
that the overall accident rate is higher?

In contrast to the 'idea' of ever more separate lanes being good for
improved safety there is the contradictory data that shows that in
places where you remove all the lane markings, signs and junction
priorities you often get a measurable increase in safety.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Amy Blankenship]

"Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 1, 12:39 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at
>> >> > > > you,
>> >> > > > but
>> >> > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork.
>> >> > > > If you
>> >> > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more
>> >> > > > maligned
>> >> > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > use
>> >> > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>>
>> >> > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
>> >> > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>>
>> >> > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW
>> >> > > DO
>> >> > > WE
>> >> > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE
>> >> > > DUTCH
>> >> > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> >> > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong
>> >> > direction.
>> >> > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
>> >> > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
>> >> > that.
>>
>> >> > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to
>> >> > bike
>> >> > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
>> >> > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
>> >> > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>>
>> >> > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for
>> >> > football
>> >> > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
>> >> > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I
>> >> > just
>> >> > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately,
>> >> > there's
>> >> > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually
>> >> > because
>> >> > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
>> >> > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
>> >> > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
>> >> > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
>> >> > hour bike ride.
>>
>> >> I don't blame you, biking works best
>> >> when everything is
>> >> more central and dense like a metro area.
>>
>> >> > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
>> >> > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way
>> >> > issue.
>> >> > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to
>> >> > people,
>> >> > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
>> >> > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
>> >> > trip.
>>
>> >> > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
>> >> > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
>> >> > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage
>> >> > shopping
>> >> > by bike.
>>
>> >> Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
>> >> from nowhere land.
>>
>> > I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
>> > nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
>> > background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
>> > nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
>> > What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
>> > worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
>> > Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
>> > version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
>> > somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
>> > underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
>> > Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
>> > me, because I don't wear a watch.
>>
>> > You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
>> > virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
>> > You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
>> > hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
>> > I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
>> > that's what makes it nice.
>>
>> > On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
>> > Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
>> > excitement around here.
>>
>> > Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
>> > youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
>> > of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
>> > any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
>> > stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>>
>> > So what about this "quality" thing?
>>
>> If you had a Wal-Mart right there they would immediately start
>> four-laning
>> the road in front of it and put in access roads. That would make it far
>> less bike friendly. Most ordinary sized grocery stores, however, do not
>> insist on four lane highways. Cluster a number of smaller shops around
>> it
>> and you have most of the selection of Wal-Mart, probably better quality,
>> and
>> a more bike-friendly environment.
>>
>> -Amy
>
> Man, I am dating myself, but remember the days when a few bigger
> grocery stores out build next to a department store and share a common
> entrance. It was like a Jamesway next to a Shop Rite. Jamesway,
> Barkers and others all did that, here and there. You could go between
> the stores, up at the front.
>
> Now, all of those departments stores are closed. Must not have been
> such a good idea.
>
> The thing is, people LIKE Walmart. Maybe you don't and William
> doesn't, but there are sure a whole lot of people out there who do.
>
> We'd like one here. The sales tax revenue would help the city coffers
> and people wouldn't have to drive so far to buy skivies.

About that sales tax revenue...

http://www.newrules.org/retail/policefactsheet.pdf
http://amiba.net/pdf/barnstable_fiscal_impact_report.pdf
http://edlabor.house.gov/publications/WALMARTREPORT.pdf

 

In article <qE%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

> Where I live the only roads prohibited for bicycles are interstate
> highways; every other road is legal and free.

Even the limited-access freeway near me has its shoulder open to
bicycles -- bikes are allowed on many miles of Interstates, boring and
noisy, but safe and direct.

> Get a good rear-view
> mirror, get out there, and get in the way. Every motorist that gets
> ****** off at you for slowing them down is one more "advocate" for bike
> lanes.

I'd prefer not to have bike lanes, I'd much rather have wide curb lanes
without the magical paint stripe.

Paint doesn't actually stop reckless drivers from hitting things, but it
does stop careful drivers from driving to the right when there isn't a
bike present. That means the bike lane doesn't get swept by passing
cars, so it builds up broken glass and radial tire wires.

--
[email protected] is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html>

 

[William]

On Aug 1, 11:12 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 11:54 am, William <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 10:25 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > > > > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > > > > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > > > > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > > > > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > > > > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > > > > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> > > > You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> > > > BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> > > > OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> > > You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
> > > You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
> > > Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
> > > that.
>
> > > Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
> > > & no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
> > > sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
> > > partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.
>
> > > For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
> > > practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
> > > shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
> > > need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
> > > a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
> > > I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
> > > bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
> > > about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
> > > 10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
> > > hour bike ride.
>
> > I don't blame you, biking works best
> > when everything is
> > more central and dense like a metro area.
>
> > > So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
> > > community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
> > > But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
> > > the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
> > > SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
> > > trip.
>
> > > So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
> > > go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
> > > Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
> > > by bike.
>
> > Have you no sense of quality Pat? I guess that is implied when your
> > from nowhere land.
>
> I don't follow your logic. Of course I am from the middle of
> nowhere. That's great. Clean air. Clean water. Mountains in the
> background (okay, the Allegany's aren't exactly the Rockies). It is a
> nice, simple life. What else to I need. This is a great lifestyle.
> What "quality" am I missing? The Kleenex from Walmart is somehow
> worst than the Kleenex from the Kleenex Boutique? The $18 Harry
> Potter book I bought last week has different words in it than $32
> version in your corner bookstore? My backyard swimming pool is
> somehow less wet than your municipal one? My fruit-of-the-loom
> underwear are somehow less fruity than yours from the mall. Does a
> Timex keep different time than a Rolex -- it doesn't really matter to
> me, because I don't wear a watch.
>
> You might crave some imported, organic, fresh pasta only made by
> virgins on the hillsides of Italy. But regular pasta is fine by me.
> You don't need that stuff to live well. You only need it to fill the
> hollow spots in your sole. There's nothing wrong with simplicity.
> I'm not exactly a monk, but this definitely isn't Madison Ave. But
> that's what makes it nice.
>
> On Friday, a friend and I are thinking of throwing a canoe on the
> Allegany River and going a few miles, just for the heck of it. That's
> excitement around here.
>
> Besides, the Walmarts around here are pretty generous when it comes to
> youth sports. We'll hit up each of them during fundraising for each
> of the sports. It's not a lot, but they'll throw in $25 to $50 (each)
> any time they are asked -- and we ask them quite often. That buys
> stuff for the concession stand or for a raffle.
>
> So what about this "quality" thing?

Pat, Walmart is McDonalds of fast food. In *every* way. If you wanna
call that quality go right ahead. Just keep that bull **** out of the
city.

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> Are you saying that those committed cyclists are stupid and that they
> don't know what they are asking for?

It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of knowledge.
"Common sense" suggests segregated facilities will improve one's
lot (and in /some/ limited cases I agree they do), but just like
"common sense" indicating helmets substantially reduce serious head
injuries and compulsory seat belts must reduce road casualties it
turns out the effect in the real world doesn't know much about your
"common sense" and it is contarry to popular assumption and belief.

> Remember they are not kids, but
> real cyclists that tell you the real problems out there. How more real
> can you get?

The accident figures from segregated facilities that show us that
Real Cyclists suffer just as many Real Accidents on segregated
facilties (or rather, where they meet roads, as they inevitably do)
are just as real, and are far more representative than your small
sample quoted.

You really need to find out the effects of things before you start
proclaiming to the rooftops that they're The Answer.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> Would you tell the people going into Iraq that it's a piece of cake?
> No, I guess... You tell them IT'S A WAR ZONE, and then you give them
> proper armor and ammunition to survive, right?

Certainly, on the grounds that Iraq is indeed a war zone, what with
the, ummmm, war going on there.

OTOH, I've just cycled down to the store to get a trolley load of
shopping. I used the road, I didn't wear any special clothing
aside from a cotton cap with a peak to keep the sun out of my eyes.
I didn't have any near misses, I wasn't scared. So saying it's a
war zone is total and utter bollocks.

You want to get people riding? Is telling them it's a war zone
going to help? If so, how? Going on about how dangerous cycling
is puts people off. We know that from helmet promotion campaigns
consistently putting people off. We know that from people citing
safety as a reason not to cycle. Do you think these people will
increase their /perceived/ danger fighting your "war" for you? I
don't.

You want to get people out of cars and onto bikes? Is
characterising them as morons with homicidal tendencies going to
win them over to your way of thinking? I doubt it.

My strategy is demonstrating that cycling is a safe, normal thing
that normal people can do in safety and without special armour.
Doesn't **** anyone much off, doesn't call people idiots and
antagonise them, doesn't characterise what I'm doing with
ridiculous and self evidently non-sensical hyperbole, doesn't
deamnd that they put themselves out and into perceived danger for
some cause. I think all of those things it doesn't do makes it a
positive way to proceed, unlike calling for things that don't help
and stridently getting on folks' cases.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Wayne Pein]

Bill Z. wrote:

Here's a picture comparing
> the two:
>
> ------- bike lane stripe --------
> *** cyclist ****
> ____________ shoulder stripe_____________
>
> with a bike lane stripe, you'd nominally ride just inside the
> bike lane. With a shoulder stripe, you would normally ride as
> far the right on the roadway as is practicable (that's what the
> traffic laws say), which puts you just outside the shoulder.
>
> With a shoulder stripe placed a couple of feet to the right of
> where a bike lane stripe would go, the cyclist is in the same
> position on the roadway.
>
> So what's the problem? You'd ride in about the same position on
> the roadway regardless.
>

I'll assume your "shoulder stripe" is the edge of usable surface. I'll
also put dimensions to it for clarity.

The comparison is therefore a 16' lane vs. a 12' lane with 4' bike lane.

16' lane:
- bicyclist chooses lateral position based on speed and other
operational and physical context. It can be 4', 5', 6' from the edge
under typical conditions or further under atypical conditions such as a
stopped delivery vehicle or very high bicyclist speed. Bicyclist can
pass to left of stopped vehicle without changing lanes.
- bicyclists are ordinary slow moving vehicle operators. Bicyclist has
superior right to occupy that lane space since he was there prior to
overtaking motorists.
- bicyclist within the lane engenders caution in passing motorists.
- bicyclist traveled way is kept debris free by tire and wind blast from
motor vehicles.



12' and 4' bike lane.
- bicyclist's lateral position is chosen for him to be 4' or less from
edge. Bicyclist must have a reason for lateral position to be more than
4', and must yield to traffic in the "motor vehicle lane" before
changing lanes. Stopped vehicles, like busses, fully block the bike lane.
- bicyclists are "special." Bicyclist has less right to use the "motor
vehicle lane" either by law or by motorist coercion.
- bicyclist behind bike lane stripe and out of "motor vehicle lane"
means that motorists need not be cautious.
- presence of bike lane can encourage higher motor speeds whether
bicyclists are present or not. The bike lane acts as a paved shoulder
and buffer from roadside elements, well channelizes vehicles, and places
them in a favorable position for optimal lines of sight.
- bike lane collects debris.

Wayne

 

[Wayne Pein]

Bill Z. wrote:

>
> Adding a bike lane does not change the rules of the road.


Of course it does! There are mandatory bike lane laws. Two lanes become
4 lanes, the bike lane being a substandard width lane.
>
> In my state, cyclists riding at less then the normal speed of traffic
> have to use a bike lane (when installed in accordance with state
> standards), but not cylcist riding as fast or faster than other
> traffic, and there are a number of exceptions to the requirement to
> use a bike lane: to pass something, avoid a hazard, prepare for a left
> turn, or when approaching a place where a right turn is permitted.
> Drivers are required to stay out of bike lanes except when turning
> across one, in which case they must merge into the bike lane and may
> start merging when within 200 feet of a turn.

Your description clearly indicates that the rules of the road change
when a bike lane is added.


>
> Pretty simple, and there is nothing to get upset about.
>

Not for bike lane apologists.

Wayne

 

[Wayne Pein]

Bill Z. wrote:

> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>Bill Z. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>ROTFLMAO - classic projection just as I said! You are the guy
>>>spewing all the venom! You are reduced to acting like a little
>>>boy spouting insults. And over what? Bike lanes? Grow up.
>>>
>>
>>Damn, you are fool. Get off the floor Zauman!
>
>
> (Of course, being embarassed by his behavior, Pein snipped his
> infantile insults before replying.)
>
> Pein, why don't you get some professional help for your problem? You
> might start with an anger-management class, although a psychiatrist
> might be able to give you a more apropos suggestion.
>

Zauman,

Grow up.

Wayne

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:42 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> donquijote1954 wrote:
> > In other words, we need an identifying, conspicuous and explanatory T-
> > shirt that makes us part of an ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN. "In union there's
> > strength," you know.
>
> Within the union, yes, but you're trying to address people outside it.
> One way of putting off "normal people", IME, is being a strident
> activist. Look at recycling: green evangelists go on about it and not
> much happens, but if the Normal People next door are doing it then other
> Normal People will join in.

You want to aim at the average Joe and Jane out there. The Jane that
want's to do something about the environment and the Joe that wants to
save the buck in gas and insurance.

>
> > You want to make friends, not enemies.
>
> Absolutely. See above.
>
> > As for the profits, we can set up ALL of it to create more bike lanes
> > --adjacent or separated from the road.
>
> Even though we know they don't help. You still haven't taken that on
> board, but it's still true. Bike lanes are not the answer to anyone
> except the road paint industry.

The road paint industry doesn't have powerful lobbies up there. That's
why we don't have bike lanes.